Author Topic: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview  (Read 16381 times)

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Offline Bipolar

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2017, 07:30:13 pm »
Quote
We recently got a new function gen with the unified front panel you discussed and it's not the most loved instrument because the new front panel has eaten away the hard output on/off button (and the power supply makes whining noises when it's powered off) so please make wise choices about the front panels.

I own and generally like HP/Agilent/Keysight products so I bought one of those function gens for the company I work for. Great piece of equipment. But the whining PSU and lack of output on/off buttons where practically the only reasons I went with Siglent SDG 2000X Series for my home lab instead of the Keysight one I originally planned on buying. Didn't absolutely need the isolated outputs and the level of accuracy at home.

Oh and I have to say - excellent series of interviews! Definitely would like to see more like these.

 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2017, 12:15:16 am »
Oh Keysight, please stick with the knobs and physical controls. In fact, the final thing that made Keysight win our last "what scope do we want buy" shootout was the separate knobs for each channel (and the MegaZoom instant response). We recently got a new function gen with the unified front panel you discussed and it's not the most loved instrument because the new front panel has eaten away the hard output on/off button (and the power supply makes whining noises when it's powered off) so please make wise choices about the front panels.

1000% agree with the knobs....  KEYSIGHT - PLEASE KEEP THE KNOBS!

Why? (if it's not obvious) - Quick and intuitive changes of setting.  If there is an operational parameter that I will change frequently, then I NEED to be able to do that quickly and easily.  A two-step process is double the work it needs to be - and if you bury such a setting behind 3 or 4 button pushes, then it's that much more to do to actually change that parameter.  Put a knob in front of me that only does that one thing - and I will be happy - because no matter how everything else is configured, if I want to change that parameter, I can just go straight to the knob.

A function tree structure 10 wide and 10 deep may give you 100 discrete options - but you may have to traverse through up to 20 steps to find the one you're after ... and that's assuming you know where to go to get to it.  (The learning curve for that little exercise can be frustrating - but it is the sort of thing that will lock people into your product line ... if the interface is consistent, that is.)

For the proponents of the "clean look" front panel - don't go overboard.  Sure, you can build a scope with a screen on one side and a MS "Knob" on the other and you can get it to do everything - but I won't be using it.

KEEP THE KNOBS
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 12:17:01 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2017, 03:35:18 am »
What I also found very interesting from John to hear about the reasons, why detailed Schematics are no longer included in service manuals:
1. Other companies copied them (Very obvious)
2. Keysight would need to offer service / explanations for schematics
It would never have crossed my mind to call Keysight and have them explain a certain part of a schematic to me. But it seems that was the case and took valuable time away from them.

Yeah, I don't understand why you can't have them and refuse support on them if it came to that. But yeah, maybe the shear number of people causes X number of people who will expect support.
 

Offline trophosphere

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2017, 05:16:03 am »
Yeah, I don't understand why you can't have them and refuse support on them if it came to that. But yeah, maybe the shear number of people causes X number of people who will expect support.

Probably something related to "If you give a mouse a cookie, then he'll ask you for a glass of milk." Granted I would think the majority of people don't expect any further help but, as you hypothesized, it only takes a few out of many to become a burden.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2017, 09:01:37 pm »
Oh Keysight, please stick with the knobs and physical controls. In fact, the final thing that made Keysight win our last "what scope do we want buy" shootout was the separate knobs for each channel (and the MegaZoom instant response). We recently got a new function gen with the unified front panel you discussed and it's not the most loved instrument because the new front panel has eaten away the hard output on/off button (and the power supply makes whining noises when it's powered off) so please make wise choices about the front panels.
1000% agree with the knobs....  KEYSIGHT - PLEASE KEEP THE KNOBS!
That ain't gonna happen because the trend will be towards scopes with more than 4 channels.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2017, 09:32:13 pm »
What I also found very interesting from John to hear about the reasons, why detailed Schematics are no longer included in service manuals:
1. Other companies copied them (Very obvious)

Which makes no sense at all.  If you're going to copy someone's design, reverse-engineering the schematic amounts to about 0.01% of the work.  Given how rapidly components go obsolete, how frequently proprietary components are used, and the ever-increasing dependence on programmable parts,  it's hardly worth the bother.

Quote
2. Keysight would need to offer service / explanations for schematics

That's just weird.  If someone were to actually call for additional information on a schematic, the answer would be a poilte, "Sorry, that information isn't available."  No sane person would ever hold that against them, and the lack of schematics won't stop the others from complaining anyway.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2017, 10:00:49 pm »
What I also found very interesting from John to hear about the reasons, why detailed Schematics are no longer included in service manuals:
1. Other companies copied them (Very obvious)

Which makes no sense at all.  If you're going to copy someone's design, reverse-engineering the schematic amounts to about 0.01% of the work.  Given how rapidly components go obsolete, how frequently proprietary components are used, and the ever-increasing dependence on programmable parts,  it's hardly worth the bother.

Quote
2. Keysight would need to offer service / explanations for schematics

That's just weird.  If someone were to actually call for additional information on a schematic, the answer would be a poilte, "Sorry, that information isn't available."  No sane person would ever hold that against them, and the lack of schematics won't stop the others from complaining anyway.
Have you ever worked in retail or the services industries? You wouldn't believe what people think they have a right to.

That being said, it's obvious Keysight doesn't do it to save costs. It's cheaper not to do it. John has made it very clear on multiple occasions that they are a company and that the bottom line matters. This decision seems in line with that approach.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2017, 11:08:15 pm »
Oh Keysight, please stick with the knobs and physical controls. In fact, the final thing that made Keysight win our last "what scope do we want buy" shootout was the separate knobs for each channel (and the MegaZoom instant response). We recently got a new function gen with the unified front panel you discussed and it's not the most loved instrument because the new front panel has eaten away the hard output on/off button (and the power supply makes whining noises when it's powered off) so please make wise choices about the front panels.
1000% agree with the knobs....  KEYSIGHT - PLEASE KEEP THE KNOBS!
That ain't gonna happen because the trend will be towards scopes with more than 4 channels.

While that may be - I believe the majority of users aren't going to be using more than 4 channels for the majority of the time.  Certainly, there are going to be those use cases where this does happen on a regular basis, but for the most part, that is not going to be the mainstream, IMHO.

If Keysight want to go to an 8 channel scope, for example, then I would suggest the following....

Keep all the knobs for 4 channels - and then have a single button for a bank "shift" function.  Controls for channels 1-4 now operate channels 5-8.  If you want to get fancy, then add to that the ability to assign each set of knobs to a specific channel under a "preset" arrangement.  Just a thought.

A remote interface can have all 8 channels on display ... software solutions are easier to re-spin than hardware.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2017, 01:36:27 am »
Have you ever worked in retail or the services industries? .

You might say that.  8)  I wouldn't ask anything of Keysight and other T&M vendors that I wouldn't -- and don't -- do myself.

(To be fair, people do occasionally ask questions about those schematics.  It's good to chat with customers, potential future customers, and even competitors whenever you can spare the time.  Sometimes you get exposed to their good ideas that way.)

Quote
You wouldn't believe what people think they have a right to.  That being said, it's obvious Keysight doesn't do it to save costs. It's cheaper not to do it. John has made it very clear on multiple occasions that they are a company and that the bottom line matters. This decision seems in line with that approach.

The Keysight folks do great work, and I wouldn't be inclined to buy lesser equipment from someone else just because they provide better service information.  But don't try to tell me that printing a document (that already exists in-house) to .PDF and sticking it on a Web server somewhere is a major cost sink.  Publishing schematics does carry certain liabilities that aren't always obvious -- such as the fact that you're basically waving a red flag at patent trolls -- but the usual reasons don't hold any water IMHO.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2017, 01:49:47 am »
That's not retail or the services industries by a long shot ;D

I do think you underestimate the investment it costs to put out proper documentation. It's not as simple as printing a pdf to file and slapping it on a server. I agree with John Kenny that that's probably something that's consistently underestimated by people.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2017, 02:10:16 am »
That's not retail or the services industries by a long shot ;D

I do think you underestimate the investment it costs to put out proper documentation. It's not as simple as printing a pdf to file and slapping it on a server. I agree with John Kenny that that's probably something that's consistently underestimated by people.

Athletic department on line 2.  Coach says put those goalposts right back where you found them, or there'll be trouble.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2017, 02:22:08 am »
Athletic department on line 2.  Coach says put those goalposts right back where you found them, or there'll be trouble.
The coach just told me the other team isn't playing in the same ballpark.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2017, 02:45:53 am »
Athletic department on line 2.  Coach says put those goalposts right back where you found them, or there'll be trouble.
The coach just told me the other team isn't playing in the same ballpark.

How do you define "retail?"  I define it as, "Exchanging money for goods in a market that's open to consumers."  Do you have a particular revenue threshold in mind?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2017, 03:05:44 am »
How do you define "retail?"  I define it as, "Exchanging money for goods in a market that's open to consumers."  Do you have a particular revenue threshold in mind?
Not a particular revenue threshold, but a particular audience. You'll experience much different customers if you work at the television department at Best Buy, rather than selling comparatively niche T&M gear. People feel entitled to the strangest things in ways you wouldn't believe.

Obviously, Keysight isn't into selling televisions, but test gear, but that's where the difference in scale comes into play. The signal to noise ratio is a lot better than when you're dealing with regular retail and the general public, but a relatively small amount of noise across a huge customer base is still a lot of noise to contend with. The fact that they're now dealing with individual customers, rather than institutions, isn't helping the matter much.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2017, 04:30:48 pm »
After watching part 3 or 4, he mentioned a competitors power supply, I'll assume this was Rigol.
The UI copying from Keysight isn't as blatant as identical menus, still thought it was funny though.

http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2804535-pn-E36312A/80w-triple-output-power-supply-6v-5a-2x-25v-1a?cc=CA&lc=eng
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 09:13:24 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2017, 04:56:09 pm »
I think the Rigol came before the Keysight.
 

Offline sarel.wagner

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #91 on: October 24, 2017, 05:12:20 pm »
Since John is responsible to make things work cross units within Keysight, he needs to address Benchvue  |O Crazzzyyyy how disconnected the parts are. HMI (UI/Ux) is so important, that is what we see as the machine, its the part we interact with.

Offline bitseeker

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #92 on: October 24, 2017, 09:02:28 pm »
Yep, I have a meeting tomorrow with a couple of folks in the BenchVue group to discuss the onboarding experience. One of several issues is, as you pointed out sarel, the need for a holistic UX as that affects the ongoing use of the system, in addition to onboarding.
I TEA.
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #93 on: October 24, 2017, 09:12:48 pm »
The part lifespan is interesting, I somewhat have understood this is a bit of a problem for other parts of industry focused electronics also, like some control and manufacturing equipment bits and pieces providers, where the product is in "20 to 40 years lifespan expectation" category, while the rest of the world is trying to shift to "2 years rotation".
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #94 on: October 24, 2017, 09:17:46 pm »
I think the Rigol came before the Keysight.

Yes, the humor is that keysight "stole" Rigols UI design. After he went on about design patents (although I'm not sure if they apply to software UI?).
Of course there is a huge grey area between straight stealing a design and being inspired by it.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2017, 09:26:19 pm »
Yes, the humor is that keysight "stole" Rigols UI design. After he went on about design patents (although I'm not sure if they apply to software UI?).
Of course there is a huge grey area between straight stealing a design and being inspired by it.
No design exists in a vacuum. Everything is based upon what came before. Obviously, some companies take that a bit too far, but in most cases, design patents are fairly obvious improvements.

Of course, Keysight is probably copied a bit more than others, but John admitted openly to looking at and using competitor products and it would be stupid not to do so.
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #96 on: October 24, 2017, 09:32:22 pm »
Heh. Ie. those control keys below the screen. Now look at your keyboard there is F1 to F12 originally served just exact purpose as the key on both those UIs.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #97 on: October 25, 2017, 12:27:53 am »
Yes, the humor is that keysight "stole" Rigols UI design. After he went on about design patents (although I'm not sure if they apply to software UI?).
Of course there is a huge grey area between straight stealing a design and being inspired by it.
No design exists in a vacuum. Everything is based upon what came before. Obviously, some companies take that a bit too far, but in most cases, design patents are fairly obvious improvements.
There is a lot of prior art in these sorts of UIs, neither example presented is particularly innovative or moving far from existing cases. Also they could have been developed in parallel without knowledge of the other and both settled on a logical and obvious UI design for a power supply with a graphic LCD.
 

Offline MasterTech

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #98 on: October 25, 2017, 10:50:28 am »
Just watched the videos. Such an insightful and intelligent speaker I must say, a pity that these kind of people are scarce in top level management. Thank you John!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:52:22 am by MasterTech »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1032 - John Kenny Keysight Interview
« Reply #99 on: October 25, 2017, 12:40:10 pm »
Just watched the videos. Such an insightful and intelligent speaker I must say, a pity that these kind of people are scarce in top level management.

I think John would make a top notch Keysight CTO, just say'n...
 


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