EEVblog #1050 - MORE Solar Roadways LOL

[EEVblog]

Solar Freak'n Roadways is the LOL that keeps on giving!

[sakujo7]

They...actually went and shovelled the snow? ...On camera? 

[orion242]

For someone that wants to do the math, in my experience with hydronoic snowmelt systems are ~150 btu/sqft for residential applications  Commercial systems can easily exceed 600 btu/sqft depending on expected snowfall and complete melting in a reasonable time.  Totally dry payment in most cases can exceed 1k btu/sqft.  Almost all systems will have a sensor to detect moisture and stand down when dry.  Even when dry, many will keep the slab just below freezing to be ready for snowfall.  Aka they always consume some energy while outdoor temperature are below freezing because of the mass they are working with.

[janekm]

They...actually went and shovelled the snow? ...On camera? 

And then apparently posted a picture on instragram implying that the snow had been melted by their system rather than having been shoveled.... Nuts.

[Brumby]

They...actually went and shovelled the snow? ...On camera? 

And then apparently posted a picture on instragram implying that the snow had been melted by their system rather than having been shoveled.... Nuts.

Not nuts.

Fraud.

Edit:
Actually, to be more precise - if that is the Brushaws (or a couple acting with their implied or explicit knowledge) then it is a very simple and clear case of fraud.

This is especially true if a photograph of the result is posted with any sort of suggestion that the panels were responsible for the lack of snow over them.

[Brumby]

Notice, too, how the snow has been very carefully removed to only follow the outline of the panels.

This would seem to be a very deliberate effort ... for a fairly obvious purpose.

[jonovid]

here we go again. is all about the new age religion of free energy worship. 
doing the maths to pull it apart, is seen as unfaithful to the religious devotion of energy worship

so progressive, eco marketing hype at its best. it works so that must be good. the snow melt thing has most of the public snowed.
any type of solar roadway is highly visible to the public. so its got more green street cred then boring old solar panels hiding on top of a roof out of sight. 
the city can say look even our roads are green      ...as the non-engineering public are fooled.


this works but!
just as a hamster wheel powered full sized rail locomotive will work.
based on the life expectancy of your hamster, the clockwork series of reduction gears. and your rail destination is measured in feet or meters! 

[drussell]

Actually, to be more precise - if that is the Brushaws (or a couple acting with their implied or explicit knowledge) then it is a very simple and clear case of fraud.

This is especially true if a photograph of the result is posted with any sort of suggestion that the panels were responsible for the lack of snow over them.

Well, not quite...  Their little blurb said something to the effect that the panels didn't quite have enough juice to melt all the snow or somesuch nonsense...  Of course, they can never have enough juice to do that which is claimed while still obeying the basic physics and laws of thermodynamics.  (Unless they connect them to a nuclear reactor or something to provide the snow melting power.)

[Zzyzx]

Even better, a panel of the Chinese solar road was just stolen: http://technode.com/2018/01/06/section-worlds-first-solar-panel-road-stolen-solar-generation-soars/?

[Brumby]

didn't quite have enough juice to melt all the snow

There's no "not quite" about it.  The use of such a phrase offers NO semblance of escape from the deceit.  IF they were ever taken to court over it, there is no doubt in my mind those words would fail to save them.

If they said: "didn't quite have enough juice to melt any of the snow", they might be safer.

[madires]

Hilarious^2 Maybe it's meant to be an alibi for the secret job in China

[Barny]

And here is the photo which was taken after the shoveling:
https://twitter.com/SolarRoadways/status/945088687972417536

Another question is how long will it take till the remaining panels die.

[Twoflower]

Careful: The picture in the tweet shows very little snow and the tweet is from December 24th. And looking at the shovel action screen shots have much thicker snow coverage and took place on January 4th. It shows also that the panels did in fact melted the snow a bit (2:30 in the video). Also notice there is no sign were the snow from the panels were shovelled to (of course it could e to the left side out of the picture). And looking to the border between the panels and the concrete you see actually some area that could be sign of melted snow.

So it might even be possible that the picture is legit. I remember one thunderfoot video he was noticing the panels were hot.

Please note that I mostly agree with Dave about this SR stuff. But fighting against stupid things should be done with the right weapon.

[nctnico]

Please note that I mostly agree with Dave about this SR stuff. But fighting against stupid things should be done with the right weapon.

The 'Solar friggin roadway' from the Brushaws seems like a road to nowhere to me and the fact they shuffled precisely along the edge shows that they know it too somewhere deep down.

However the French and Chinese solar roadways do have a lot of engineering and funding put into them so somehow someone has added up numbers which make sense. In his video Dave mentions that solar roadways only make sense after all the roofs are full. But how long is that going to take? You are literally dealing with millions of different owners and even when making it mandatory it will take decades. And even then it is unlikely there will be enough surface area. OTOH the road surfaces are there, it doesn't need dealing with many owners or building code legislation and large scale installing can be done using an uniform process. Space wise road surfaces are simple low hanging fruit. Why wait 20 to 30 years to harvest solar energy if you already know today you are going to need every bit you can get? A solar roadway which is generating some energy today is better than a roof which could have solar panels somewhere in the future but nobody knows when.

[Brumby]

A solar roadway which is generating some energy today is better than a roof which could have solar panels somewhere in the future but nobody knows when.

Here's the thing.... and it's the "thing" Dave has been saying all along .....

Go and build $30,000,000 worth of solar road - with all it's maintenance unknowns
  - OR -
Go and build $1,000,000 worth of contemporary solar farm - with decades of experience backing it up

... and both are going to produce the same amount of power.



Which of these makes more sense?

[nctnico]

A solar roadway which is generating some energy today is better than a roof which could have solar panels somewhere in the future but nobody knows when.

Here's the thing.... and it's the "thing" Dave has been saying all along .....

Go and build $30,000,000 worth of solar road - with all it's maintenance unknowns
  - OR -
Go and build $1,000,000 worth of contemporary solar farm - with decades of experience backing it up

... and both are going to produce the same amount of power.

Which of these makes more sense?

The one which is actually there makes sense. Remember that the Paris climate agreement has set clear goals on the amount of renewable energy that is to be generated at a fixed point in the future. Acquiring land, changing zoning laws and getting building permits for a solar farm is not a fast process IF (big IF) the land is available. If hassle free space is available it will be easier to meet the goals. Also your numbers are comparing prototype costs versus industrial scale costs.

Also Colas has tested their solar roadway intensively so there aren't any maintenance unknowns. See this PDF from page 15 which describes the development process from idea to prototype: http://www.colas.com/sites/default/files/publications/cst-mag3-fev16-en-web.pdf. It is not like they slapped something onto the road which they think will work. It has already been tested to work. For example the document describes how the 'Colas' solar roadway was tested for durability for 1 million cycles versus 30000 cycles they use for a regular road surface.

[bitwelder]

And here is the photo which was taken after the shoveling:
https://twitter.com/SolarRoadways/status/945088687972417536

https://twitter.com/NBDreadnought/status/949635451446595585

 

[Bud]

Have they drove a tank on it? What happens to the country's solar roads in case of military actions? Can they be used to transporting troops and heavy weapons?

[Fungus]

If they said: "didn't quite have enough juice to melt any of the snow", they might be safer.

Well, the "juice" comes from the control box, they've already admitted that.

And it looks like the LED inefficiencies managed to melt a little bit of it.

(although they'll no doubt claim it's 'heating elements' inside the panels)

[tszaboo]

A solar roadway which is generating some energy today is better than a roof which could have solar panels somewhere in the future but nobody knows when.

Here's the thing.... and it's the "thing" Dave has been saying all along .....

Go and build $30,000,000 worth of solar road - with all it's maintenance unknowns
  - OR -
Go and build $1,000,000 worth of contemporary solar farm - with decades of experience backing it up

... and both are going to produce the same amount of power.

Which of these makes more sense?

The one which is actually there makes sense. Remember that the Paris climate agreement has set clear goals on the amount of renewable energy that is to be generated at a fixed point in the future. Acquiring land, changing zoning laws and getting building permits for a solar farm is not a fast process IF (big IF) the land is available. If hassle free space is available it will be easier to meet the goals. Also your numbers are comparing prototype costs versus industrial scale costs.

Also Colas has tested their solar roadway intensively so there aren't any maintenance unknowns. See this PDF from page 15 which describes the development process from idea to prototype: http://www.colas.com/sites/default/files/publications/cst-mag3-fev16-en-web.pdf. It is not like they slapped something onto the road which they think will work. It has already been tested to work. For example the document describes how the 'Colas' solar roadway was tested for durability for 1 million cycles versus 30000 cycles they use for a regular road surface.

Because building roads is a super fast process.
It takes a year to finish a stupid intersection here. After they finished with it, the utility company comes and makes a mess for fixing something, and they replace the "good" asphalt with their lesser quality one, and it looks like a war movie set after a year, with potholes and everything.
BTW I would love if the potholes( that are somewhat easy to avoid) would be replaced by driving on broken glass, on the entire lane.

And nobody ever proved, that they generate more power over their lifetime than the manufacturing.

[nctnico]

And you wonder why we (the Dutch people) make so many jokes about Belgium. With these kind of examples you are not making it hard to come up with 'new material' 

BTW if you worry about (manufacturing) CO2 emissions from solar panels: according to IPCC data this is around 30grams/kWh.

[Brumby]

And it looks like the LED inefficiencies managed to melt a little bit of it.

(although they'll no doubt claim it's 'heating elements' inside the panels)

I'd be interested to get up close and personal with a thermal camera on those panels (when clear of snow) and see where the hotspots are.  I'm going to guess it will be a bad interconnect, rather than LED efficiencies or a (chuckle) heating element.

[james_s]

Seems like pumping power *into* the PV panels might work as well as anything to melt snow. The energy has to go somewhere, surely it would be dissipated as heat.

Wouldn't surprise me if it takes several large installations of these failing spectacularly before people start to come to their senses, but even then there will be a few "believers" who will steadfastly insist that we just need to change this or that and *then* the system will work great. Judging by the number of free energy perpetual motion and related gadgets are floating around, there is no shortage of people who are not encumbered by the laws of physics and reality. It becomes a religious belief of sorts.

[Brumby]

Somewhere down the line, some journalist is going to run an exposé on how these panels are failing to melt snow - because the sunlight can't reach the solar cells.

It's going to be a sensational revelation.  The chat shows are going to go wild with it.





Wait and see.

[EEVblog]

Somewhere down the line, some journalist is going to run an exposé on how these panels are failing to melt snow - because the sunlight can't reach the solar cells.
It's going to be a sensational revelation.  The chat shows are going to go wild with it.
Wait and see.

I don't really get why there isn't more "revelations" of this sort?
I know it's all about ratings, and a "save the world" "innovative idea" makes for great headlines, but surely a story "busting" some scheme or highlighting a failed project is even more juicey?
Perhaps it's because it actually requires some simple math to bust?

[EEVblog]

This is their explanation, it makes no sense? 

[Brumby]

It's a typical scenario.  It's a three step process.

1. The "emerging technology" fan boys are going to ignore all the Engineering "naysayers" as being close-minded.  The bandwagon of politics and popularity drives the roll-out.  Edit: The proponents of said tech will run any necessary smoke and mirrors necessary to allow the fan boys to maintain their ignorant enthusiasm.

2. The technology gets implemented to a demonstrable scale and, over time, becomes of less interest to those who like to shove things in the face of the establishment.  It may even become mainstream, in which case, the technology can become part of "the establishment" portfolio - and it's supporters will lose pretty much any active interest.

3. Then, one day, someone will look at the numbers, see how unimpressive it all was and wonder how the heck it scored so much funding.  The scandal of this waste will make for a good headline and the journalists will start ripping into everyone... but it won't matter.  The politicians who pushed it through will have moved on and the "developers" of the technology will have taken their cut.  All the press will do is say how bad the decision was ... and (maybe) ask "How did this rubbish get so far?"


... and we will just sit back and shake our heads.

[tszaboo]

And you wonder why we (the Dutch people) make so many jokes about Belgium. With these kind of examples you are not making it hard to come up with 'new material' 

BTW if you worry about (manufacturing) CO2 emissions from solar panels: according to IPCC data this is around 30grams/kWh.

I'm not Belgian, I just live here. I also have a critical voice for the way things go here, because I've seen better.

I question the entire solar roadway energy output. It has 3 times worse output than roof mounted. Roof mounted has about 7 years of ROI here. Asphalt road needs replacing about 10-15 year. Where is the ROI? If there is no ROI, no monetary benefit then what you achieve is:
-Higher costs for roads
-More tax for car owners
-Higher electricity price

[nctnico]

And you wonder why we (the Dutch people) make so many jokes about Belgium. With these kind of examples you are not making it hard to come up with 'new material' 

BTW if you worry about (manufacturing) CO2 emissions from solar panels: according to IPCC data this is around 30grams/kWh.

I'm not Belgian, I just live here. I also have a critical voice for the way things go here, because I've seen better.

I question the entire solar roadway energy output. It has 3 times worse output than roof mounted. Roof mounted has about 7 years of ROI here. Asphalt road needs replacing about 10-15 year. Where is the ROI? If there is no ROI, no monetary benefit then what you achieve is:
-Higher costs for roads
-More tax for car owners
-Higher electricity price

You have to ask Colas and/or the Chinese firm that have invested and installed their solar roadways. My estimate is that there is a ROI somewhere otherwise I'd expect they would not have taken these projects as far as they have.

Recently I read an article about economic forecasts saying energy prices will rise somewhat due to meeting CO2 reduction goals so don't rule out that part of the strategy relies on higher electricity prices in the future.

[james_s]

Of course there's a ROI, people like you believe it will work despite piles of data clearly showing it doesn't, and companies installing the roads are salivating over the massive tax dollars they can extract from the public to install these things.

[nctnico]

AFAIK it has been mentioned in this thread before as an option to put solar panels so I post it here. It is officially announced as a project in the NL: a floating solar farm in sea.

[Brumby]

In the North Sea?

[nctnico]

In the North Sea?

Yes.

[Brumby]

Hope they build it tough.

From what I understand, the North Sea isn't exactly kind to things that float.

[Fungus]

Hope they build it tough.

From what I understand, the North Sea isn't exactly kind to things that float.

I bet it could be done if each turbine floats individually and there's a decent gap between them.

Edit: Yep, that's what they're planning:


154 meter diameter rotor!


Let's see if they remember to put de-icers on the blades.

[nctnico]

Who is talking about wind turbines? They are going to put FLOATING SOLAR PANELS in the sea.
This kinda proves the point I made earlier on that it isn't trivial to find large amounts of contiguous surface area to put solar panels on in densily populated areas.

[james_s]

Yes but it's dead easy to find loads of places to put them that are far more practical and efficient than roads. This has been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, both mathematically and through actual field trials. Solar roadways don't work, end of debate.

The floating panels on the water seem like a reasonably good idea. Space is plentiful, there isn't anything to shade them, there aren't going to be vehicles driving over them. I do wonder how well they'll cope with storm swells though.

[Brumby]

Hopefully that will wash off salt spray deposits....

[Fungus]

Who is talking about wind turbines? They are going to put FLOATING SOLAR PANELS in the sea.

Oh, sorry.

But still, same thing applies.