EEVblog #1091 - LED Studio Light Repair

[Fungus]

If the locals don't give a toss, its of little concern to me.

Nice attitude.

How many of these exist in the US/EU etc?

a) How much of your US/EU electronic waste ends up in one of those places to be "recycled"?

b) Planets with oceans are global things. What goes around, comes around.

[orion242]

If the local government is stupid enough to take it and the locals just accept it, why should I get too excited about it?  If we stop garbage, it will slave trafficking, if stop that it will just be the next human catastrophe, and the next.  At some point the locals need to put their foot down, or they will continue to get walked on.  If that fails, use your two feet and get out of there.

Might be pretty blunt, but I'm not naive enough to think we are going to solve everyone's problem.  At some point, the change needs to come from within.

Again we still have drinking water delivered with lead pipes, we go to shooting ranges and pump the ground full of it.  I don't think lead from electronics in a proper dump is of much concern in the grand scheme of things.

Even in your "electronics dumps" lead probably isn't their biggest life quality issue or even in the top 10.

[orion242]

Planets with oceans are global things. What goes around, comes around.

Lol, I hear we are working on a wall for that.

[apis]

Might be pretty blunt, but I'm not naive enough to think we are going to solve everyone's problem.  At some point, the change needs to come from within.

Not realising that all of the world is connected is naive if anything is.

Again we still have drinking water delivered with lead pipes, we go to shooting ranges and pump the ground full of it.  I don't think lead from electronics in a proper dump is of much concern in the grand scheme of things.

And how is that working out for you?
https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/04/us/flint-water-crisis-fast-facts/index.html
(maybe that doesn't concern you either?)

In this part of the world we don't use lead pipes, and for hunting we use steel shots or other alternatives when possible. But lead based hunting ammunition is still an environmental problem that is being worked on.

The reason lead was regulated is because there was lead in everything, so eventually we had to "put our feet down" and limit lead use to where it is strictly necessary. Maybe you should "put your feet down" too.

[orion242]

And how is that working out for you?

Exactly my point.  Politicians tried to save a buck, more than one knew there could be issues, yet all turned their heads and approved it.  People rose up and a handful of politicians got tossed on their a$$.  All a sudden there is movement to replace the lead pipes that before would have sat there another 100yrs.

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=4759979

"A geological survey conducted in 2008 showed that one fifth of Sweden’s wells contained water unfit for drinking. Swedish Radio News reports that the situation has not improved since then.

The source of the problem with poor quality well water may be that the ground contains dangerous elements like arsenic. The most common cause, however, is that sewage leaks into the well."

Maybe your right, lead's not in your water its poop!  Would be pretty surprised if they never used lead pipes at some point or that every inch has been removed there.

[apis]

Exactly my point.

Glad we agree lead should be regulated then.

"A geological survey conducted in 2008 showed that one fifth of Sweden’s wells contained water unfit for drinking. Swedish Radio News reports that the situation has not improved since then.

The source of the problem with poor quality well water may be that the ground contains dangerous elements like arsenic. The most common cause, however, is that sewage leaks into the well."

Maybe your right, lead's not in your water its poop!  Would be pretty surprised if they never used lead pipes at some point or that every inch has been removed there.

Wow, was a long time since I heard a poop joke! The wells are private, it's basically a courtesy notice telling people who has property in the countryside that they should check the quality of their water supply. Municipal water quality is very good here, although in some places the pipes are getting old and need  to be replaced. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

More relevant is that the water in lakes and the Baltic is so full of environmental poisons that you can't export fish caught here to other countries. The national food agency recommends you don't eat lake caught fish more than once a year.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/tons-of-mercury-found-in-the-baltic-sea-europe-s-underwater-chemical-dump-a-434329.html
That is what happens if you don't give a shit about the environment.

[orion242]

Are there any studies showing a marked reduction of lead in drinking water due to ROHS?  Surely this should have some measurable impact by now?

Has anyone studied if there was a true reduction in waste or if switching just caused more frequent product failures thus more ewaste?

Sounds like the Baltic states need to make like the peoples of Flint and hang a politician or two until you get what you want.

[apis]

I think you are missing the point, we stopped dumping toxic waste in the Baltic a long time ago but we are still paying the price for the sins of our ancestors. A lot of it is from a 60-100 years ago when people apparently believed dumping things in the ocean was a great way to get rid of toxic waste. Thanks to them we now know it is quite possible to poison even an ocean if not careful.

Of course there is research, here is one study from the USA:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-12/documents/lead_free_solder_lca_summary.pdf
Do you really think the EU would begin regulating the use of lead without any scientific basis? People seem to think EU somehow targeted lead based solder to make the life of electrical engineers difficult.

The RoHS directive simply tries to limit the use of some well known environmental toxins (among them lead, mercury and cadmium) which is a good thing. Unless lead is strictly necessary you should use alternatives, and in most cases lead free solders is a perfectly fine alternative. If you really need lead based solder you can get an exception. It's been a while now and we still use electronics in Europe, the world didn't end.

[james_s]

I'd still like to see some data. I support being environmentally conscious, but I think with reasonable steps taken to recycle electronics the amount of lead dumped into landfills can be minimized. That doesn't mean we have to be heavy handed and require ALL electronic waste to be handled by a certified recycler, but anyone handling tens of tons of the stuff should be given some scrutiny.

On that note, I would like to see a different approach taken with e-waste recycling. The recycling locations should be set up so that stuff gets dropped off in a staging area where people are allowed or even encouraged to come and pick through it taking what they can use. By far the most efficient form of recycling is reuse, and everything that gets repaired and put back into service is one less item that gets scrapped. Scrap is the lowest form with the least value since you can't recycle the effort that goes into turning raw materials into finished products.

[orion242]

Of course there is research, here is one study from the USA:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-12/documents/lead_free_solder_lca_summary.pdf

Thanks.  Don't have the time tonight for a full read, but will this weekend.

Do you really think the EU would begin regulating the use of lead without any scientific basis?

Not at all.  However they certainly made assumptions on what the final impact would be since they couldn't have actually measure the outcome before enacting.  Its been 10yrs now.  Has anyone verify it made any measurable difference in say lead levels in ground water?  How much impact did it really have?

We can measure the ozone hole since CFC bans.  What does global lead contamination levels look like now and are they declining?  How much can be attributed to ROHS?  Or was this just something to make us all feel better without doing a thing to solve the real problem?

[Fungus]

We can measure the ozone hole since CFC bans.  What does global lead contamination levels look like now and are they declining?

We can measure airborne lead after we stopped putting it into gasoline.

FWIW: It coincides nicely with a massive drop in the crime rate.

[Brumby]

Are there any studies showing a marked reduction of lead in drinking water due to ROHS?  Surely this should have some measurable impact by now?

I believe you are being far too unrealistic about your expectations.  Reduction of levels would indicate existing contaminants being removed from the ecosystem - and that is clearly an extremely difficult exercise, with an unimaginable cost.

I would limit my expectations to seeing a slowing of the increase - but even then you would have to consider things like previously discarded materials that were encapsulated in some way being released.


IMO, it is going to take quite some time for any definitive results to show up, but if we don't start making serious efforts - wherever we are in the world - then we can't ever expect positive change.

Being the first adopters might be lonely at the start, but will be seen as pioneers when the rest of the world starts catching up.

[Fungus]

IMO, it is going to take quite some time for any definitive results to show up, but if we don't start making serious efforts - wherever we are in the world - then we can't ever expect positive change.

Yep, somebody has to step up and create standards.

It doesn't take many people willing to make a buck at any environmental cost to wreck the planet. Not these days.

[IanB]

Are there any studies showing a marked reduction of lead in drinking water due to ROHS?  Surely this should have some measurable impact by now?

There was no lead in drinking water to begin with, so no reduction could be measured.

[james_s]

We can measure the ozone hole since CFC bans.  What does global lead contamination levels look like now and are they declining?

We can measure airborne lead after we stopped putting it into gasoline.

FWIW: It coincides nicely with a massive drop in the crime rate.

The lead added to gasoline was a large quantity, and it was vaporized all over the world landing on the surface. We are not grinding up millions of tons of electronics waste and spreading the dust all over the surface of the earth. It's quite a different thing.

[orion242]

There was no lead in drinking water to begin with, so no reduction could be measured.

Tell that to Flint, Chicago and countless other cities across the globe that still are drinking water though lead straws.  Seems almost all the lead contamination in water supplies is due to plumbing lines, fittings and solder and there is little leaching concern.  Fair enough.

So if lead leaching in the ground is mainly a non-issue, where was the problem?  You would think after a decade of near world wide ban, some measurable impact exists.  If not, this seems to fall into the warm and fuzzy feeling legislation, not real problem solving.

[apis]

Are there any studies showing a marked reduction of lead in drinking water due to ROHS?  Surely this should have some measurable impact by now?

The problem with doing such a study is that we have been trying to remove lead in everything for a while now, not just solder, so determining exactly what effect switching to lead free solder has is hard. What you can measure are things like lead blood levels in children but it will be hard to tell exactly how much e.g. lead from solder contribute because there was also lead in paint, or plastic, etc. (We know lead levels in blood dropped significantly after we stopped using leaded gasoline at least.)

So if lead leaching in the ground is mainly a non-issue, where was the problem?

The problem is that there is lead in places there shouldn't be any lead:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_lead_level
And lead in the environment is also definitely a problem.

You would think after a decade of near world wide ban, some measurable impact exists.  If not, this seems to fall into the warm and fuzzy feeling legislation, not real problem solving.

If you know there is a problem with lead poisoning of humans and the environment then it's sensible to try and limit the use of lead even if you can't tell exactly what is the main source.

Even if you try to carefully recycle everything, some of it will end up in places it shouldn't (especially cheap mass produced consumer products). This is a way to get the situation more under control.