Author Topic: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station  (Read 20676 times)

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Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2018, 07:10:28 am »
Absolute nonsense, ability to change temperature is a must for effective work.

No it is not. The melting point of solder depends on the alloy used.  You select your tip temperature based on it.  Your tip always maintains it temperature.   This allows you to safely solder small smd parts to tabs on RF power transistors while they are still bolted on to large heatsinks.  There is no need for knobs and buttons to change.  Have a look for currie point soldering irons, they are outside the price range if this review, but are not in the 500K range :-)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 07:24:34 am by Towger »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2018, 07:28:35 am »
I just wanted to mention a small inaccuracy in the video regarding thermocouples. You said that the thermocouple (Type K) couldn't go any higher than 250 deg.C.
This is incorrect, all Type K thermocouples are accurate up to 1350 deg.C and down to -200 deg.C (per definition/standard they are all made from the same alloy), and all good thermocouple meters should also be accurate in that range.  :-+

Fluke think that you are very wrong indeed:
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/auen/accessories/temperature/80bk-a.htm?pid=55348
260C max
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2018, 07:31:41 am »
There is a knock off FX-951 on BangGood for $115au. Would Dave stoop to asking BG for eval units?

I get an email every week without fail from the endless people at Banggood offer stuff for review. I'll refuse because of their constant spamming.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2018, 07:32:52 am »
17:50 - "These aren't like 3 or 5 second irons like your JBCs, Paces, and your Metcals and all your really high end $500K irons..."
$500K soldering irons?! Surely you can't be serious!
I tried to find some of these $500K irons you spoke of, and the highest price one I can find is this $28,000 Metcal rework station:
Perhaps you meant $5K?

Perhaps I just misspoke?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2018, 07:37:25 am »
All I'm seeing here is ancient designs with terrible performance and inflated price. Weller seems to be stuck in the 80s, where switching power supply didn't exist. And arbitrary pricing.

Show me a $100 direct tip heater station and I'll review it and compare.

Until then there are $100 class "ancient design" irons, and the more expensive direct tip heater ones, take your pick.

You can do an awful lot with a quality $100 soldering station.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2018, 07:40:17 am »
Dave you also said the original/old Wellers were curie point irons!!!
 

Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2018, 07:43:26 am »
Show me a $100 direct tip heater station and I'll review it and compare.

The TS100 is now less than $50.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2018, 09:21:55 am »
All I'm seeing here is ancient designs with terrible performance and inflated price. Weller seems to be stuck in the 80s, where switching power supply didn't exist. And arbitrary pricing.

Show me a $100 direct tip heater station and I'll review it and compare.

Until then there are $100 class "ancient design" irons, and the more expensive direct tip heater ones, take your pick.

You can do an awful lot with a quality $100 soldering station.
Yes, a lot of things can be done with these stations. I could do a lot with the 3000 Dollar weller station at work. But after using a direct heating tip, I realized how bad the actual performance was. And the value for the money. It is clear, that the reputable brands are not interested in a price fight, they can keep it high due to the businesses ordering their equipment without even thinking. This station is basically the same as the 20 dollar Hakko clones on Aliexpress, with better built quality. It has no extra features, and the heating element comes from the past.

I took your challenge, and I found a direct tip heating station below 100 dollars. Aoyue 2930. I dont know how well it works.
There seems to be a lot of stations using Hakko T12 tips also. I'm looking at one now, it has universal AC input, IEC input, with fuse and switch, OLED screen, knob, and metal housing, for some 50 dollar. I think (probably with a genuine cartridge) that these stations would be much better value then the WE1010. In fact I would like to hear your opinion on them.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2018, 09:34:31 am »
I had the Aoyue Int3210 for a year, because I need a knob (got a bad habit of adjusting the temperature often. I adjust the temperature instead of heating the parts longer). Nothing special, but does the job.

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2018, 10:12:13 am »
Show me a $100 direct tip heater station and I'll review it and compare.

The TS100 is now less than $50.

A soldering iron "stick" from a no-name company that has (from many accounts) crap firmware, and is powered from a DC laptop power supply and cable or some other random power source is hardly my idea of a quality soldering station that's worthy of being compared to proper mains soldering stations.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2018, 10:15:01 am »
I took your challenge, and I found a direct tip heating station below 100 dollars. Aoyue 2930. I dont know how well it works.

Ok, noted.

Quote
There seems to be a lot of stations using Hakko T12 tips also. I'm looking at one now, it has universal AC input, IEC input, with fuse and switch, OLED screen, knob, and metal housing, for some 50 dollar. I think (probably with a genuine cartridge) that these stations would be much better value then the WE1010. In fact I would like to hear your opinion on them.

I can't give an opinion on something you don't link to.
 
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Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2018, 10:15:14 am »
For those that want a review of the TS100, mike has one:

I also have one, it works. Not very ergonomic if you have normal-sized hands.
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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2018, 10:37:56 am »
I took your challenge, and I found a direct tip heating station below 100 dollars. Aoyue 2930. I dont know how well it works.

Ok, noted.

Quote
There seems to be a lot of stations using Hakko T12 tips also. I'm looking at one now, it has universal AC input, IEC input, with fuse and switch, OLED screen, knob, and metal housing, for some 50 dollar. I think (probably with a genuine cartridge) that these stations would be much better value then the WE1010. In fact I would like to hear your opinion on them.

I can't give an opinion on something you don't link to.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/KSGER-T12-Soldering-Iron-station-STM32-OLED-DIY-Kits-Solder-Electric-Tools-Welding-Iron-Tips-Temperature/32836043839.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.41.71d36040u7OL1G&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10084_10083_10618_10304_10307_10302_5711211_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_10627_10626_10624_10623_10622_5711315_10621_10620_5722413-normal#cfs,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=04c0ccb3-5b5d-4198-8cee-1498c1bcc85e-5&algo_pvid=04c0ccb3-5b5d-4198-8cee-1498c1bcc85e&priceBeautifyAB=0
That is a long link...

Anyway, there seems to be dozens of stations similar to this, with different handles, front panel, power supply. Some of them is DIY kit. I linked this one, because of the 390 review, 370 of it is positive 5 star. It might be worth to do a video on these. Some of them might be actually dangerous, and miss the earthing of the case, or the tip is not earthed, unless you hack it, etc.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2018, 10:47:57 am »
I took your challenge, and I found a direct tip heating station below 100 dollars. Aoyue 2930.

This may not be available for much longer: "This product leaves the range, as we want to make room for new products. We are happy to advise you if you need an alternative for this station. The spare parts will be available in future."

http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-int2930-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-iron-smd.html
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2018, 11:06:06 am »
For those that want a review of the TS100, mike has one:

I also have one, it works. Not very ergonomic if you have normal-sized hands.

Mike's title says it all. I don't consider the TS100 a proper bench soldering solution, so don't see a point comparing it against those.
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2018, 11:18:39 am »
All I'm seeing here is ancient designs with terrible performance and inflated price. Weller seems to be stuck in the 80s, where switching power supply didn't exist. And arbitrary pricing.

Show me a $100 direct tip heater station and I'll review it and compare.

Until then there are $100 class "ancient design" irons, and the more expensive direct tip heater ones, take your pick.

You can do an awful lot with a quality $100 soldering station.
I admit, that i don't know any half decent direct tip-heating-station in that pricerange.
But i'm pretty sure that my little ersa station heats better than both stations you tested.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2018, 11:23:12 am »
Dave you also said the original/old Wellers were curie point irons!!!

They were.
The tip lost it's magnetism at a set temperature opening the switch to the heating element.
They still sell them as Magnastat irons:
https://weller.de/en/Weller--Products.html?cat_id=ID521
And as the WTCPT fixed temp station.
http://www.weller-toolsus.com/MagentoShare/media/mannuals/WTCPT_OI_PL.pdf


 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2018, 11:25:38 am »
I admit, that i don't know any half decent direct tip-heating-station in that pricerange.
But i'm pretty sure that my little ersa station heats better than both stations you tested.

Which one?
The Ersa WSD80 is the same price, and the i-Con is about 50% higher.
They could very well be better, but that won't matter to the direct-heating fanboys  ;D
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2018, 11:27:40 am »
Aoyue has a soldering iron with induction heating currently on sale: http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-int3233-digital-lead-free-induction-soldering-station.html

Anyone tried those?
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Offline Deridex

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2018, 11:28:15 am »
Check out the Ersa I-Con-Pico (non ESD) or the Ersa I-Con-Nano Dave

Edit: I just noted that the Ersa I-Con-Pico got more expensive since i bought it. I payed 116€ (checked it :) ) and now the cheapest i can find in germany is about 144€. Even though it is still cheaper than the cheapest Weller WE1010 i could find in germany.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 04:11:27 am by Deridex »
 

Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2018, 09:18:48 pm »
A soldering iron "stick" from a no-name company that has (from many accounts) crap firmware, and is powered from a DC laptop power supply and cable or some other random power source is hardly my idea of a quality soldering station that's worthy of being compared to proper mains soldering stations.

It more than met your price point.  I would recommend a second hand Metcal MX500 for people who want a good iron.  I got one on eBay with 2 handpieces and stands for 100stg a few years back.  Picked up another base (looked never used) for 60 last year.  These are in a different league and bargains are there if you keep an eye out.
 

Offline gearshredder

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2018, 09:44:13 pm »
Dave, a metcal can be had for 25$ each as I bought them in lots, kept a a couple at home and at work, the rest I sold off. Singles will go for $50. The wands go for $89 as a thermaltronics remake, plus tips are $18 each, original metcal tips were 80hr rated?? of course the sleep stand that will set you back $70 will increase the life a bit. So, total is about $150 or so. Not $100 but a good next step up.

Metcal ps2e-01 40w
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-2-Metcal-PS2E-01-Soldering-Station-Power-Supplies/382401687783?epid=1601722732&hash=item5908eab0e7:g:M5kAAOSwcJNanzi0

wand:
https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltronics-Solder-TMT-9000S-interchangeable-MX-RM3E/dp/B00NS4F4AG/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1520804279&sr=1-1&keywords=thermaltronics+shp

tip:
https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltronics-M7CP200-Chisel-interchangeable-STTC-136P/dp/B00NS4Q79S/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1520804703&sr=1-1&keywords=m7cp200
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 09:53:24 pm by gearshredder »
 

Offline eV1Te

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2018, 10:18:19 pm »
I just wanted to mention a small inaccuracy in the video regarding thermocouples. You said that the thermocouple (Type K) couldn't go any higher than 250 deg.C.
This is incorrect, all Type K thermocouples are accurate up to 1350 deg.C and down to -200 deg.C (per definition/standard they are all made from the same alloy), and all good thermocouple meters should also be accurate in that range.  :-+

Fluke think that you are very wrong indeed:
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/auen/accessories/temperature/80bk-a.htm?pid=55348
260C max

It's not often that one finds a subject related to electronics that "Dave Jones himself" does not already know everything about already! (I mean it as a compliment)   :-+

Just to illustrate my point: I fetched one Fluke thermocouple of the same type you had in the video (Fluke printed on the black connector), and one thermocouple that is rated to +1350 deg.C from the manufacturer (Omega USA brand). See images below:
  • Test in water to confirm their accuracy -  Both showed similar reading of 20.1 - 20.2 deg.C
  • Test with torch up to ca 1150 deg.C -  Both showed similar reading of ca 1150 deg.C (depending on how well I managed to position the torch).
  • Verification in the same water again to confirm that their accuracy had not been changed, they both showed the same temperature as they did initially.

Keep in mind that the type K alloy can not handle 1350 deg.C continuously for many hours/days depending on the atmosphere, since it might become oxidized or reduced. For continuous operation at these temperatures the two wires are often covered by a metal tube made out of Inconel or other type of superalloy (the Omega branded thermocouple in the images below is covered by such a tube, hence why you only see one rod and not two wires)

I still believe that Fluke:
  • lists the measurable range based on the temperature rating of the insulation (so that it does not melt or crack)
  • or purposely list a lower range than it can handle so that they can charge more money for other probes. (does not feel like something a serious manufacturer like Fluke would do)

There is one detail that is important to mention, there are also compensation and extension grade thermocouple wires. These consist of a different alloy with similar Seebeck coefficient close to ambient temperature, and have the purpose of being able to extend the length of the wires from a thermocouple.
They are however not intended for forming the tip/junction where the actual sensing takes place, but can in theory form a very crude thermocouple that would be somewhat accurate close to ambient temperature.

Source:
Have a master degree in metallurgy and a Ph.D. in materials science. I work at a company that, among other things, produce thermocouple cables/wires.  ;)


« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 10:25:23 pm by eV1Te »
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2018, 10:23:44 pm »
Dave, a metcal can be had for 25$ each as I bought them in lots, kept a a couple at home and at work, the rest I sold off. Singles will go for $50. The wands go for $89 as a thermaltronics remake, plus tips are $18 each, original metcal tips were 80hr rated?? of course the sleep stand that will set you back $70 will increase the life a bit. So, total is about $150 or so. Not $100 but a good next step up.

Metcal ps2e-01 40w
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Qty-2-Metcal-PS2E-01-Soldering-Station-Power-Supplies/382401687783?epid=1601722732&hash=item5908eab0e7:g:M5kAAOSwcJNanzi0

wand:
https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltronics-Solder-TMT-9000S-interchangeable-MX-RM3E/dp/B00NS4F4AG/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1520804279&sr=1-1&keywords=thermaltronics+shp

tip:
https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltronics-M7CP200-Chisel-interchangeable-STTC-136P/dp/B00NS4Q79S/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1520804703&sr=1-1&keywords=m7cp200

Second hand comparisons aren't valid. Availability is limited and hugely variable by country.
 
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Online cv007

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Re: EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2018, 10:25:14 pm »
I have an Aoyue 2900 which has long, easily removable tips (tip+heating element I guess). There is a rubber pad included, where you just grab the tip, pull it out, take another tip, push it in. No sleeve to unthread, etc. I don't remember where I got it (probably sparkfun back when they were starting), but I don't think it was very expensive (when in doubt, I get something lower end until I know better). It has worked pretty well, but the tips are harder to find now.

Probably a feature that I think is greater than it really is, but is there any other station in this range that you can just yank the tip out and replace easily? I usually crank up the station, then when I pull the handle out I realize the tip is the wrong one (I only use maybe 2-3 different ones). Maybe unscrewing a sleeve is not so bad, but I figure messing with several hot parts for more than a few seconds will lead to burned fingers.
 


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