EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: Towger on March 15, 2018, 01:29:24 pm

Title: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Towger on March 15, 2018, 01:29:24 pm
 :palm: Where do HF RF powered curie point self regulating tip soldering irons come in the scale of Old vs New?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scvS2yeUH00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scvS2yeUH00)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: free_electron on March 15, 2018, 03:15:47 pm
THe key difference i s the thermal contact area between the tip and heater. With an integrated tip this contact is perfect. With a tip in a sleeve there is a large air gap and the actual contact area is small ( the tip wiggles on the heater ). ideally you should put some thermal transfer compound in there ... but even then.

So an integrated tip has better thermal transfer and has better temperature sensing ( for the same reason) so the control loop behaves much much better.

RF powered tips will behave the same as the heating is direct in the tip. there is no 'contact transfer between heater cartridge and tip. the tip is the heater.

Depending on the construction of the iron the transfer is better or worse. I never liked the 'heater in a sleeve' type.
Weller has another type that uses end-to end contact (WSP80 series ) that ises very small tips like this :
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNFUCnvGf3LHZ3opcH0SkXW7e2hTtI8bugIRwyWVrWbWZov46Maw)

The heater simply butts up to the tip .
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: prof on March 15, 2018, 08:20:15 pm
@Dave You can actually do much cheaper than the JBC. E.g. the Weller RT tips use a 3.5mm headphone jack and can be powered using PWMed 10-24V so there're tons of DIY soldering stations, e.g. the Maiskolben (https://github.com/ArduinoHannover/Maiskolben) for the genuine Weller tips. The station works really great and the tip selection is great with the biggest drawback being the price of the tips of course... Still I'd rather get the assembled Maiskolben and 2 Weller tips for the price of the "old style" Weller iron you've tested...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2018, 09:39:21 pm
@Dave You can actually do much cheaper than the JBC.

Yes, I know, that's not the point of this video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2018, 09:40:35 pm
:palm: Where do HF RF powered curie point self regulating tip soldering irons come in the scale of Old vs New?

They are not adjustable temp irons like the integrated tip ones are. Another category entirely IMO. Yes I should have at least mentioned them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2018, 10:05:27 pm
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: screwbreaker on March 15, 2018, 10:22:57 pm
...
Weller has another type that uses end-to end contact (WSP80 series ) that ises very small tips like this :
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNFUCnvGf3LHZ3opcH0SkXW7e2hTtI8bugIRwyWVrWbWZov46Maw)
...

I think small tips are also cheaper. For who needs to replace tips very often, for example repair labs, this can be an important factor.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2018, 10:27:34 pm
I think small tips are also cheaper. For who needs to replace tips very often, for example repair labs, this can be an important factor.

The DIP blade FX951 T15 tips are very expensive compared to the normal size tips. Not sure if they actually cost more to make or they are just gouging because they are more "obscure".
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: langwadt on March 16, 2018, 12:15:07 am
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(

why? It looks to be  direct heating  why does it matter if control do-that's are in the handle or in the power supply?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: llkiwi2006 on March 16, 2018, 01:10:13 am
I think the real comparison should be between a $50 chinese clone "new style" iron that takes T12 tips, and a "old style" iron like the FX-888D. After doing some research online, all the chinese clones seem to be of questionable quality. I think the response of the control loop will have an impact on the thermal performance, and it's unknown if they are doing this properly. Furthermore, it's not encouraging that all of the chinese clones are doing cold junction compensation incorrectly by putting the thermistor inside the main unit instead of in the handle where the cold junction actually is.

I am looking for a new iron to replace my cheapo fx936 clone, and I think I'll still go for a fx-888d. I was thinking there could be a open hardware project to use genuine fx951 handles, but it seems like the handle costs half as much as the unit. Maybe it could have a better ui, but it's definitely not going to be an improvement on cost.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Alex Eisenhut on March 16, 2018, 02:08:05 am
Meh, I solved the heat problem 20 years ago when I bought *two* Hakko 936 stations. When I do need more heat I put big tips on and that's it. It also helps removing SOICs by putting a T-K tip on each side. You can't beat two crappy irons even with the best single iron!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Monkeh on March 16, 2018, 02:18:59 am
:palm: Where do HF RF powered curie point self regulating tip soldering irons come in the scale of Old vs New?

They are not adjustable temp irons like the integrated tip ones are. Another category entirely IMO. Yes I should have at least mentioned them.

I don't see why. The heater is integrated with the tip, and both the heating time and power delivery are in the same class as the best resistive heater irons. Hell, they got to that class before most if not all resistive irons. Just because you can't adjust a temperature which doesn't need adjusting, doesn't mean they're in a different category.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: richfiles on March 16, 2018, 04:48:12 am
I kinda wanna try one of these Chinesium T12 soldering station kits now. I like the OLED version, considering it does give a little more information on screen than the LED version does. I also would prefer the better handle... I see a lot of these kits come with what looks like a modified old school Hakko handle. If I'm gonna give this a shot, I want the better version. Anyone build one yet, or got a recommended version? I got a dozen tabs open, and payday coming tomorrow, so I'm thinking this is probably gonna happen, but I'm open to suggestions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: NiHaoMike on March 16, 2018, 04:49:46 am
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Maybe what we need is a stand to turn the TS100 into a soldering station? And while we're at it, a silicone sleeve to make it a bit bigger for engineers who aren't little Asian ladies. (Side note: at several companies I have worked at in the past, Vietnamese ladies tend to do the really intricate reworks.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: BravoV on March 16, 2018, 04:54:08 am
Dave, regarding your question on Hakko temperature sensor location, looking at the photo genuine Hakko ceramic heater under bright light that I took while ago, the sensor is near the tip, as seen that the smaller darker section near the edge.

Click to enlarge
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/genuine-vs-fake-hakko-936-ceramic-heater-a1321/?action=dlattach;attach=47595;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: timelessbeing on March 16, 2018, 08:13:10 am
With a tip in a sleeve there is a large air gap and the actual contact area is small
OK but you're not just relying on conduction. There is also thermal radiation, and the tip pretty well surrounds the element. Anyway, if the tool meets your needs, then what does it matter how it works?

Those tips with integrated heating must get expensive in the long run. One needs to factor that in when evaluating cost.

RF powered tips will behave the same...
Is that the same as induction heating? The Hakko FX-100 uses that technology but it's $600 and the tips are expensive.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: wasyoungonce on March 16, 2018, 08:42:50 am
I went back to older Royel soldering systems.....~70's ish watts full power, range of smaller irons, Vac-desolder irons,Theremal strippers, resistance soldering tweezers but it just works well....within +/- 5ºC of setting.  Well it should. I believe it was the first Mil Spec system able to keep such a tight tolerance at the tip and while I don't appear to get the specific tightness in tolerance when on something that wicks heat away rapidly it still maintains heat very well, much much better than the Hakko 936...way better.

So I guess it's what you get used to working with....I've purchased quite a few older Royel systems from fleabay including a few single stations and a couple of dual multi-purpose AIO's including around 2 dozen irons. Royel was the first to use silicon heat resistant leads but did get the primary inner insulation wrong it tends to corrode the wires and flake away after decades, easily fixed these days.

Oh anyone looking at new Royel....forget it they have well and truly gone to the dogs.  I ordered one of their new irons to test it against the older ones...what a disappointment they were truly trash.  I think it was Alan Wash who did a lot of real decent design work with that company...he'd be devastated at what's happened to it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: PA4TIM on March 16, 2018, 09:34:32 am
I made the mistake to switch to thew "new" marketing hype.  >:D I have two 2 year old Metcal I retired after 1,5 years.  The performance was great and it was fast but the quality sucked and tips were insane expensive and lasted not long. I switched back to my faithful old Pace after that.  I have around 10 different tips (desolder and solder) and around 15 spares on stock. If I had 25 tips for metcal it would cost a fortune (30-40 euro/tip)

I think I solder more with an iron as Louis. But he does more with hot air as me. I often have PCBs that can not be tested/powered and I must desolder/solder many parts to test. (a few hundred joints a day is not uncommon) Often through hole and often conformal coated. I also switch tips often.

It is a bit a pity there was a huge difference in power in this test. You mentioned it several times but it is the same as with DMM's, many people think they are all equal, good and safe and only see what they want to see and fits their wallet. I see a lot of butchered boards killed by crappy soldering tools. (I also repair PCB's (traces, pads, burned etc))

My old Pace is always around 320C. My Weller a 80W WS81 is always at 450C. It works great at that temp but at 320C it has limitations and works like your Hakko. The Pace PS90 is a Weller on steroids. But expensive. Mine is the old sensatype but I still can buy all the parts. The sensors Pace use are very precise. tips last a long time.

What I see as a potential problem for cartridge heaters is imitation. The performance is for a very huge part tip and power related. Lots of room to cheat.
I think they need high power because the whole cartridge is radiating heat and has not much mass.

For me fast heating is no real plus. I think the ulta fast heating and cooling is not be best for the material but I could be wrong. Easy tip change is important for me . The metcal was a pain with the rubber sheet ( to thick to place the tip in the stand with it) The Weller I unscrew and drop it in a tin can. The Pace has a special  tool. I loose the screw a 1/4th turn with that tool. Grab the tip with the tool and drop it in the tipholder. Grab an other one, stick it in and turn the screw. Does not have to be tight. Sometimes I forget the screw but the tips do not fall out (as they are hot)
That screw is a good example of killing a good working system by imitation.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2018, 09:38:27 am
It is a bit a pity there was a huge difference in power in this test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE5R5cyGsa8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE5R5cyGsa8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: screwbreaker on March 16, 2018, 10:03:50 am
...
My old Pace is always around 320C. My Weller a 80W WS81 is always at 450C. It works great at that temp but at 320C it has limitations and works like your Hakko. The Pace PS90 is a Weller on steroids. But expensive. Mine is the old sensatype but I still can buy all the parts. The sensors Pace use are very precise. tips last a long time.
 ...

I don't know what handpiece you are using with the WS81, I presume the WSP80. In this case you cannot compare the two systems. The PS90 has much more thermal capabilities than the WSP80. The WSP80 is in the same class of PACE TD-100. They are made to be light and small, they are not suitable for every type of works. Especially works which involves high thermal masses. An equivalent handpiece for the WS81 can be the LR 21.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: TuxKey on March 16, 2018, 11:40:40 am
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(

I looked at the TS100 but after downloading the manual and reading it talking to a couple of people i think it's a fail.
I would much rather buy the Hakko FX-888D...

I just discovered (as mentioned on youtube) that Aoyue has a couple of direct heating stations nice bench stations..
The  Aoyue 2901 with a knob and the cheaper Aoyue 2900..

http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2900-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html (http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2900-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html)

http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2901-analog-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html (http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2901-analog-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html)

One thing i'm starting to notice looking at all these soldering stations aimed towards the Chinese market..
That seem to find their way in to the EU and US market  ;D

It's like they build the tech in to them and started doing a good job.. but near the end they mess up.
I looked around on youtube for the Aoyue 2901 and found someone doing a teardown of the handle..
They seem to cut corners near the end giving you the nice modern heating element and the soldering tips are €14,50 so not cheap ... There is also a teardown of the "AOYUE 2900 LEAD FREE " his English is not that good but ok...
Build seems to be good...
i recon worth your time???..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: PA4TIM on March 16, 2018, 12:40:40 pm
Quote
screwbreaker: I don't know what handpiece you are using with the WS81, I presume the WSP80. In this case you cannot compare the two systems. The PS90 has much more thermal capabilities than the WSP80. The WSP80 is in the same class of PACE TD-100. They are made to be light and small, they are not suitable for every type of works. Especially works which involves high thermal masses. An equivalent handpiece for the WS81 can be the LR 21.

Yes, I use the WSP80, a 80W iron. I use it mostly for SMD with a small gullwing. With the standard  chisel tip  I do not have to crack up the temp.  Tips are very cheap and last a very long time.

The PS-90 is "only" 65W
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Gyro on March 16, 2018, 01:08:48 pm
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(

Good decision. Not reviewing is better starting one with a prejudice.  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2018, 01:24:37 pm
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Good decision. Not reviewing is better starting one with a prejudice.  :-+

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see, without even having used the TS100 that:
1) It's a tiny iron designed for portable use
2) It doesn't come with any bench stand
3) It's power output varies greatly with the supply used.
4) It uses any generic power lead with requisite issues with piss-poor strain relief, contact issues due to barrel jack compatibility, flexibility and handling issues as a result, and no burn-proof lead.
5) It comes from a no-name manufacturer and the longevity of the support for it would almost guaranteed zero.

And people want me to compare this with a properly designed bench soldering station that are designed to be very reliable and last decades?

Yeah, I'm biased...

It's like asking for a review of a pen-style multimeter compared to a regular handheld one.

And I didn't say I'm not going to review it, I'm just saying I'm not going to compare it in a shootout with bench stations.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Gyro on March 16, 2018, 02:30:35 pm
No offense intended.  :)

Your reply does however, back up the reason why you definitely should not review it in this context. Items 1-4 are either non issues (size - convenient and well balanced when decent silicone cord is factored in), can fixed with a minimum of ingenuity and cost (power, stand, burn-proof cord, decent laptop style barrel jack), or false ("piss-poor strain relief"). Being able to input into its operating f/w is great. I've happily adopted it as my main iron in preference to my Weller at 24V.

As I say, no need for you to review it, the mikeselecticstuff review serves just fine.


EDIT: I just re-read your final sentence, I look forward to when you do get around to reviewing it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: MT on March 16, 2018, 05:54:12 pm
5) It comes from a no-name manufacturer and the longevity of the support for it would almost guaranteed zero.

Weeeell, its not that important, i for instance dont buy Lewis jeans just because its a long time brand, overpriced like hell their jeans and just a brand among others who uses the same Indian, Vietnam child laborer to make them.

Is it important if a car is Ford Volvo or Fiat? Old brands all of them and knowing Fiat is crap so the "brand" didnt help much. I dont want support, i want cheap decent quality that works without support. I dont want USB on my soddering pen.

Huge number of people are waiting for your T100 review.

Oh, its Friday i'l have to get another beer! :)

Here a slodering pen kit, the dude is even using a soldering pen to solder a soldering pen!
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-DIY-Electric-Unit-High-quality-Basic-Ability-PracticalDigital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-T12/32691225273.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000023.3.53284257bHupLI (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-DIY-Electric-Unit-High-quality-Basic-Ability-PracticalDigital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-T12/32691225273.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000023.3.53284257bHupLI)

https://videocdn.taobao.com/oss/taobao-ugc/7e6919c49621498f8c4b7e490aeb8473/1478835900/video.mp4 (https://videocdn.taobao.com/oss/taobao-ugc/7e6919c49621498f8c4b7e490aeb8473/1478835900/video.mp4)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: jancumps on March 16, 2018, 05:54:31 pm
old style, but with a metal wrap around the heating element that touches the tip: Weller WXP 65 Watt

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1064-soldering-irons-old-vs-new/?action=dlattach;attach=404265;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: bitwelder on March 16, 2018, 07:42:39 pm
Those tips with integrated heating must get expensive in the long run. One needs to factor that in when evaluating cost.
That's what I felt it was a bit missing in Dave's video, a some explanation on the economics of running a soldering iron (both 'old' and 'new' type).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: NANDBlog on March 16, 2018, 08:30:13 pm
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Good decision. Not reviewing is better starting one with a prejudice.  :-+

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see, without even having used the TS100 that:
1) It's a tiny iron designed for portable use
2) It doesn't come with any bench stand
3) It's power output varies greatly with the supply used.
4) It uses any generic power lead with requisite issues with piss-poor strain relief, contact issues due to barrel jack compatibility, flexibility and handling issues as a result, and no burn-proof lead.
5) It comes from a no-name manufacturer and the longevity of the support for it would almost guaranteed zero.

And people want me to compare this with a properly designed bench soldering station that are designed to be very reliable and last decades?

Yeah, I'm biased...

It's like asking for a review of a pen-style multimeter compared to a regular handheld one.

And I didn't say I'm not going to review it, I'm just saying I'm not going to compare it in a shootout with bench stations.
Bigger issue: The ergonomics are absolutely non existent.
There is no rubber to grab on, there is no endstop for your finger.

But more soldering videos incoming  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Gyro on March 16, 2018, 08:42:46 pm
Quote
Bigger issue: The ergonomics are absolutely non existent.
There is no rubber to grab on, there is no endstop for your finger.

As I said, only a little ingenuity required. There is a convenient step at the top of the element which is perfect for seating a thick ptfe washer - voila, an endstop for your fingers. The shape is fine for gripping. A little effort makes a big difference to ergonomics. A decent weight silicone cable and good quality plug complete the transformation.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ts100-soldering-iron-test/?action=dlattach;attach=367826;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: nctnico on March 16, 2018, 10:15:17 pm
THe key difference i s the thermal contact area between the tip and heater. With an integrated tip this contact is perfect. With a tip in a sleeve there is a large air gap and the actual contact area is small ( the tip wiggles on the heater ). ideally you should put some thermal transfer compound in there ... but even then.

So an integrated tip has better thermal transfer and has better temperature sensing ( for the same reason) so the control loop behaves much much better.
That may be but Ersa has been using the tip-over-heater system for decades and their irons work well. The Ersa system also allows to change tips quickly. The long metal sleeve on the irons Dave is testing in the video make it very inconvenient to change the tips because they needs to be unscrewed and the sleeve will be hot and need care to handle.

For kicks I did the same test Dave as with my 80W ERSA iron (RDS80 soldering station) and I get close to what Dave shows with the 135W JBC iron at 240 deg C. without needing to crank the heat up. Ofcourse there is a big difference in the amount of power (135W is 68% more than 80W) which will attribute to the better results the JBC is showing but that is by no means ground for saying new is better than old.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 16, 2018, 10:20:32 pm
I don't know why there's not an iron for the bench similar to the TS100 design with a stand, a linear power supply and burn-proof cord etc. It's not rocket science anymore. There's plenty of knock-off parts for the FX-951. Including entire stations.  So why not something that's not a total rip-off?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: jancumps on March 16, 2018, 10:35:40 pm
I don't know why there's not an iron for the bench similar to the TS100 design with a stand, a linear power supply and burn-proof cord etc. It's not rocket science anymore. There's plenty of knock-off parts for the FX-951. Including entire stations.  So why not something that's not a total rip-off?

No market? If there was money in it, it would be a thriving product.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2018, 11:16:22 pm
Huge number of people are waiting for your T100 review.

And I suspect a large number of those people just want me to validate their purchase  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 16, 2018, 11:28:14 pm
As I say, no need for you to review it, the mikeselecticstuff review serves just fine. [/s]

And how did Mike review it? As a PORTABLE iron!
This thing will never will in an overall comparison with a bench iron, it's clearly not designed for that purpose.
It if works for you for that purpose, then great, I'm happy for you. But I don't care how good it performs thermally, I'm never going to recommend such a thing as a replacement for a proper designed and engineered bench iron. If you can't but the thing as solution with a nice stand, nice power supply, properly designed leads and connector, and nice firmware (I've heard the stock one is crap), how could any competent reviewer of a soldering iron solution say this is anything but much worse in that respect?
What am I supposed to say, "buy this iron from here, download this firmware from here, but this power supply from this ebay seller here, this stand from this ebay seller, use this cable here, use this type of battery here"?, it's ridiculous.
It might be a fine performing direct heat soldering iron, but it's not a soldering iron station solution.

Quote
EDIT: I just re-read your final sentence, I look forward to when you do get around to reviewing it.

So you can watch my "biased" conclusion?  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: thm_w on March 16, 2018, 11:51:44 pm
I think the real comparison should be between a $50 chinese clone "new style" iron that takes T12 tips, and a "old style" iron like the FX-888D. After doing some research online, all the chinese clones seem to be of questionable quality. I think the response of the control loop will have an impact on the thermal performance, and it's unknown if they are doing this properly. Furthermore, it's not encouraging that all of the chinese clones are doing cold junction compensation incorrectly by putting the thermistor inside the main unit instead of in the handle where the cold junction actually is.

The control loop seems fine, you can use your own custom firmware and PID tuning if you get the STM32 unit (check the forum here, someone recently posted a link).
Cold junction is not always in the base, I bought a $9 T12 handle and it included the glass NTC. You have to look for 5 vs 4 wire connectors to the iron, if its 5 it probably has the extra connection for the thermistor.

Quote
I am looking for a new iron to replace my cheapo fx936 clone, and I think I'll still go for a fx-888d. I was thinking there could be a open hardware project to use genuine fx951 handles, but it seems like the handle costs half as much as the unit. Maybe it could have a better ui, but it's definitely not going to be an improvement on cost.

Whats wrong with using a clone handle? I would gladly use a cheap clone handle over the FX888D handle (ergonomics). Others might disagree of course.
If you are going to buy a genuine handle I would get JBC or metcal, but they are about $120 (MX-H1-AV), and DIY kits are a little more complicated, as with high tip prices.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: blueskull on March 16, 2018, 11:54:40 pm
Anyone wants to take a look at those new, $250~$400 range Quick irons? They seem to be good options for low cost RF or direct heat irons.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 17, 2018, 12:42:16 am

No market? If there was money in it, it would be a thriving product.

No market! There would be a good market for a nice 100+ watt station for the bench. The problem is that the Chinese seem to be better at rip-offs than actually designing something new. How about a good rip-off of a JBC 135W iron for $100?  And with $3 cartridge tips?

No reason why there shouldn't be brand name irons with quick heating integrated cartridge tips under $100 by now anyway.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: NiHaoMike on March 17, 2018, 12:52:51 am
I don't know why there's not an iron for the bench similar to the TS100 design with a stand, a linear power supply and burn-proof cord etc. It's not rocket science anymore. There's plenty of knock-off parts for the FX-951. Including entire stations.  So why not something that's not a total rip-off?
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 17, 2018, 01:16:34 am
I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.

I'm guess that brand name irons have linear supplies because they're less complex and more reliable. Besides, men think more weight means better value.  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: blueskull on March 17, 2018, 01:26:23 am
I'm guess that brand name irons have linear supplies because they're less complex and more reliable. Besides, men think more weight means better value.  ;D

Metcal uses SMPS, and they are heavy as rock due to the HUGE cast aluminum casing/heatsink.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 17, 2018, 01:40:33 am
Metcal uses SMPS, and they are heavy as rock due to the HUGE cast aluminum casing/heatsink.

I knew someone was gonna bring up Metcal!  I wonder if they use an aluminum case to shield RFI/EMI radiation from the Power supply and RF carrier for the iron. Metcal reminds of an old drive-in speaker.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: timelessbeing on March 17, 2018, 01:48:59 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE5R5cyGsa8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE5R5cyGsa8)
What happened to the video and my comments?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2018, 02:03:40 am
It seems to me that the TS100 has bridged the gap between bench and portable and that is why so many want a comparison review. Another reason to make the review to try to pin down where on the line from bench to strictly portable the TS100 lies.

It's a moving goalpost depending upon individual needs.
If you are after a cheap bench soldering station, I'd bet my bottom dollar that the ripoff Hakko FX-951 will be MUCH more usable than the TS-100.
That would be a review I might do. Although it's probably not good to recommend a rip-off product from an ethics point of view I guess. Hakko worked hard to do that R&D.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2018, 02:04:36 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE5R5cyGsa8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE5R5cyGsa8)
What happened to the video and my comments?

I'm uploading a new version with lots of added stuff. That was just a single take 10min video. Sorry, old comments will be lost, that's how youtube works.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: TheSteve on March 17, 2018, 02:06:56 am
old style, but with a metal wrap around the heating element that touches the tip: Weller WXP 65 Watt

The WXP65 is quite impressive, I use one pretty much daily. So far the most impressive iron I have used.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: gearshredder on March 17, 2018, 02:11:03 am
Everyone wants a bench TS-100 but you already have one.. A fx-951/950 and others. The TS-100 has modified tips based off of the cartridge heater of the Hakko.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 17, 2018, 02:27:19 am
The FX-951 is getting a bit long in the tooth. Time to put out something over 120w that can light up higher mass tips.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: gearshredder on March 17, 2018, 02:41:19 am
well, you've got the fx-206 for 1400$ or Fx-801 (300W) lol
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 17, 2018, 02:47:34 am
well, you've got the fx-206 for 1400$ or Fx-801 (300W) lol

The Pace ADS200 coming out is 120W. $219 at TEquipment. Has a line of High mass tips too for about $13 ea. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: lmaokore on March 17, 2018, 02:54:34 am
I own the Hakko FX-888D, FX-951, FX-100, Metcal, and a JBC stations. So I may have a perspective from both the NEW and OLD soldering stations.

Really what you could use all of them for most electronics needs. But what sets apart these stations are its ergonomics, heat up time, , tip prices, and ease of tip changing.

The FX-888D and Metcal have horrible ergonomics while the FX-951 and JBC is the middle of the road. The ergonomics of the FX-100 is the best compared to them all. But thermal performance wise, the FX-888D lags behind a lot (30 second heatup time and slow recovery). The FX-951 is good but takes a while to heat up compared to other stations (10-15 second depending on tip). The FX-100, Metcal, and JBC are similar in performance. Use the JBC if access to temperature is a must or FX-100/Metcal if it isn't too important. The temperature really doesn't matter in the end as long as the solder melts. The most important thing in soldering is dwell time on the components.

For tip pricing, JBC is the worst while the Hakko FX-888D is the cheapest (closely followed by the FX-951). For changing tips, the FX-951 is by far the fastest, easiest, and safest. Nothing else comes close...

I can go on on about other features such as UI, sleep, and build quality if others want me too. But here's just my 2 cents  for now. ^-^
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: timelessbeing on March 17, 2018, 03:07:50 am
The FX-888D ... have horrible ergonomics
I disagree. But ergonomics tend to be a personal thing. I have big hands.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: lmaokore on March 17, 2018, 03:16:43 am
The FX-888D ... have horrible ergonomics
I disagree. But ergonomics tend to be a personal thing. I have big hands.

Do you own other soldering stations to compare? If not, I'm not sure how you can say...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: timelessbeing on March 17, 2018, 05:48:12 am
How many people will own 5 different stations?

I can say, because mine doesn't give me any ergonomic problems, and I'm sure many other people won't either.
And, like I said, different people have different preferences. Or do you actually believe that everybody is exactly like you?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Monkeh on March 17, 2018, 05:58:01 am
Metcal have horrible ergonomics

Feel free to qualify that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2018, 08:39:01 am

No market? If there was money in it, it would be a thriving product.
No market! There would be a good market for a nice 100+ watt station for the bench. The problem is that the Chinese seem to be better at rip-offs than actually designing something new. How about a good rip-off of a JBC 135W iron for $100?  And with $3 cartridge tips?

No reason why there shouldn't be brand name irons with quick heating integrated cartridge tips under $100 by now anyway.
The JBC tips already suck really bad when it comes to durability (own experience) so how is a $3 cartrridge tip going to be better? There is a lot of competition between the A-brands already so I don't expect a new design will be able to undercut the A-brands at a similar quality level.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Alana on March 17, 2018, 09:14:22 am
Anyone tried to improve old style iron by using heatsink compound between tip and heater?
I have Chinese Zhaxolin 936D and it improved my iron by much. Work that needed it to be set to 400C now is possible with 270-285C setting.
I know its el-cheapo iron and any improvement is big improvement but i wonder if it works the same with Hakkos and stuff. Anyone care to try?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Cnoob on March 17, 2018, 12:52:43 pm
Silicone heat sink compound has a working temperature range of -50 to 200c & non silicone is -50 to 130c and could bake hard in your iron's tip.

The Hakko fx888d has a rubbish UI but its a nice compact size, they should have fitted it with a rotary encoder to adjust temp and not those poxy membrain switches.

If thermal capacity is an issue make a warming plate with a piece of alluminium sheet and cheap chinese,  PTC heaters from ebay.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: knucklefist on March 17, 2018, 01:35:22 pm
I don't have a lot of experience with soldering stations. I have had one the Hakko knockoffs, and have a $400 Weller at work, which only sees occasional use a few times a year. I build a few guitar tube amps from scratch each year. The first few I built with the knockoff Hakko. In that fist year or so I broke 2 heating elements, and went through 3 or 4 crappy tips, always fighting the tips. Then I bought the Hakko FX-888D. Although I didn't see a huge difference in heat up time, the overall dependability and quality has proven it far superior. 2+ years later the Hakko is going strong, on the same tip and heater element. I don't see the need personally for a "better" iron. It doesn't quite have the juice to do the steel chassis ground work on the vintage stuff so I keep an old gun type high watter for that.

I have been fascinated by the TS-100. I am an avid motorcyclist and I take long 1000-3000 mile trips. I usually have some sort of bodged together audio system in my helmet. In inevitably fails at some point in the journey and needs a lead or jack repaired. I stop at a hardware store, get a crappy pen iron and fix it it on the road. The TS-100 has real appeal for me. It's small and can be powered from the 12v motorcycle battery for quick repairs. I am attracted to many of the features and the open source nature of the product.

I like to think the TS-100 project will evolve over time and eventually someone will make a full open source bench iron version (maybe they already have). I know I have been thinking of uses for rackmount data server power supplies. I work in I.T. and have a readily available supply of them. When we decommission systems we send them off to recyclers. I pull the supplies first. Most of them are rated for 12V 60amps and have more than enough 3.3v and 5v for logic. Should do the business I think.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: lmaokore on March 17, 2018, 01:38:36 pm
Metcal have horrible ergonomics

Feel free to qualify that.

Handpiece is heavy, cord is very thick/ heavy making it hard to work with, handpiece is very long making it hard to work with, and no comfortable rubberized grip. JBC has one of the best grips around I must say...

How many people will own 5 different stations?

I can say, because mine doesn't give me any ergonomic problems, and I'm sure many other people won't either.
And, like I said, different people have different preferences. Or do you actually believe that everybody is exactly like you?

Basically you won't know what you're missing. The step up even to the big brother of the FX-888D, thr FX-951, will blow your mind on much better the ergonomics and grip to tip distance is.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 17, 2018, 01:44:07 pm

The JBC tips already suck really bad when it comes to durability (own experience) so how is a $3 cartrridge tip going to be better?

I don't follow your logic. If JBC has a problem with the quality of their tips, it likely isn't because of the cost. They're one of the most expensive.


There is a lot of competition between the A-brands already so I don't expect a new design will be able to undercut the A-brands at a similar quality level.

Umm...undercut them on price?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 17, 2018, 01:54:31 pm
I don't have a lot of experience with soldering stations. I have had one the Hakko knockoffs, and have a $400 Weller at work, which only sees occasional use a few times a year. I build a few guitar tube amps from scratch each year. The first few I built with the knockoff Hakko. In that fist year or so I broke 2 heating elements, and went through 3 or 4 crappy tips, always fighting the tips. Then I bought the Hakko FX-888D. Although I didn't see a huge difference in heat up time, the overall dependability and quality has proven it far superior. 2+ years later the Hakko is going strong, on the same tip and heater element. I don't see the need personally for a "better" iron. It doesn't quite have the juice to do the steel chassis ground work on the vintage stuff so I keep an old gun type high watter for that.

I have been fascinated by the TS-100. I am an avid motorcyclist and I take long 1000-3000 mile trips. I usually have some sort of bodged together audio system in my helmet. In inevitably fails at some point in the journey and needs a lead or jack repaired. I stop at a hardware store, get a crappy pen iron and fix it it on the road. The TS-100 has real appeal for me. It's small and can be powered from the 12v motorcycle battery for quick repairs. I am attracted to many of the features and the open source nature of the product.

I like to think the TS-100 project will evolve over time and eventually someone will make a full open source bench iron version (maybe they already have). I know I have been thinking of uses for rackmount data server power supplies. I work in I.T. and have a readily available supply of them. When we decommission systems we send them off to recyclers. I pull the supplies first. Most of them are rated for 12V 60amps and have more than enough 3.3v and 5v for logic. Should do the business I think.

I service tube guitar amps. Have used a Weller station for about 25 years. Has worked well. But I want a higher wattage quick heating iron.

BTW, you could probably strap two or more of those 12 volt supplies together in series to use for a higher output station.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: gearshredder on March 17, 2018, 03:02:45 pm

Handpiece is heavy, cord is very thick/ heavy making it hard to work with, handpiece is very long making it hard to work with, and no comfortable rubberized grip. JBC has one of the best grips around I must say...


What wand are you using? I have the SHP-1 and the MX-H1-AV. Both have rubber grips, and the cord is just under 5mm, flexible soft silicone. The grip is 10.7mm on the SHP-1 and 12mm on the MX-H1-AV. Tip protrusion is 31-34mm. Total length is 140mm, measuring from end of grip to beginning of cable flex.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Monkeh on March 17, 2018, 03:18:44 pm
Metcal have horrible ergonomics

Feel free to qualify that.

Handpiece is heavy, cord is very thick/ heavy making it hard to work with, handpiece is very long making it hard to work with, and no comfortable rubberized grip.

.. Aaaand here I am quite happy with the lightweight handpiece, flexible cable which stays out of my way, and perfectly comfortable grip which isn't tacky. It could do with being shorter, though.

Subjective opinions: They don't make good facts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: madires on March 17, 2018, 04:22:43 pm
I think I've mentioned this in two other related threads but it has to be said again. :) Everyone is talking about Hakko, JBC, Metcal and Weller, but not about ERSA. The old tech i-Tool (+ i-CON) is as good as any other new tech iron. It heats up fast, the temperature control works great (there are three control profiles to select from!) and the tips are affordable and long lasting. It's modern old tech ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: prof on March 18, 2018, 10:57:16 pm
I think I've mentioned this in two other related threads but it has to be said again. :) Everyone is talking about Hakko, JBC, Metcal and Weller, but not about ERSA. The old tech i-Tool (+ i-CON) is as good as any other new tech iron.

I have a number of old Ersa irons but heard bad things (in terms of reliability) about the i-CON.
Anyway, a lot of the Weller tools are also German design so I don't feel bad about using them. I am somewhat surprised though that Dave dismissed my Weller RT suggestion and instead turned up the TS100 hatred to 11. The RT tips provide a lot of direct heating goodness that will beat the much more expensive non-direct heating competition any time of the day.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: thm_w on March 19, 2018, 07:40:43 pm
What wand are you using? I have the SHP-1 and the MX-H1-AV. Both have rubber grips, and the cord is just under 5mm, flexible soft silicone. The grip is 10.7mm on the SHP-1 and 12mm on the MX-H1-AV. Tip protrusion is 31-34mm. Total length is 140mm, measuring from end of grip to beginning of cable flex.

Yeah he's obviously commenting on the OLD metcal handpiece, which is usable but not nearly as good as the MX-H1-AV (its been out for over 4 years). By far the best handpiece I've ever used. You can see Mike is using one in his new videos as well.

The value is reasonable considering the thing is machined aluminum (not plastic), and comes with two grip styles for $120. I think the FM2028 is similarly priced.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 19, 2018, 07:49:55 pm
I've asked this question in two other threads.  How does the TS100 iron compare to the T12 irons? Thermal performance etc. Most users seem to like the TS100 tip but they cost 3x what the T12 tips cost.  Are the generic T12 tips good quality?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: timelessbeing on March 19, 2018, 08:11:19 pm
Basically you won't know what you're missing.
If I never drive a lamborghini or buy a garage full of cars, I won't know what I'm missing either. But I can still really like the car I have, and enjoy driving it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Cnoob on March 19, 2018, 10:32:52 pm
I bought my Hakko fx-888d a couple of years ago and paid about £86 now they are over a £100.
A Hakko fx-951 on amazon uk £561.96 plus £2.88 p&p.
I think I'd know what I would be missing if I bought one from amazon. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: timelessbeing on March 19, 2018, 11:00:52 pm
I think I'd know what I would be missing if I bought one from amazon.

Me too. You would be missing about £476
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: ilporcupine on March 19, 2018, 11:08:09 pm
Just my 2 pennies...
I would bet that "integrated tip" irons far predate any changeable tip versions, and are in fact the old tech...
You can state that because they are temp controlled and also include the t-couple in the tip that the tech is new, but this is a whole system, and is just different uses of old tech
I know it's a minor quibble, but you focused on the heat transfer ability of the integrated heater, rather than the temp control AND heater being integrated. Seems to me to be just another combination of old technologies.
Unrelated to soldering:
I think Louis R is a bloody whiner...









Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Analog on March 20, 2018, 02:54:44 pm
I have a range of irons from the simple Hakko 936, Weller WD2000, etc, to Metcal. These are old style, new, and RF stations. None of them are the best. I can do weird things to the 936 and not feel bad, however it will kill a tip quickly if I turn it up too far by accident. The WD2000 hand piece (micro model one) is by far the best I've ever held, but the tips are $45+ each, the stand is a fire hazard, and changing settings is rage inducing. The PC interface is too much hassle to use.  The Metcal heats very fast, solders great, and I use it often but sometimes I need the odd temperatures. I can't do without that capability.

I do feel that a "new" style iron is worth the investment for high density multi-layer boards.  (Maybe not the WD2000 model). This is probably even more the case for beginners where a good iron really helps. If you do production then RF is probably worth a look. I can make do with most anything in a pinch but I have 40 years of practice. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Barny on March 22, 2018, 08:32:49 am
I've a little question.

Why didn't Dave talk about this "Solder-Pistols"?
They're extreme good.

.

.

Fun aside.
They are extreme useful.
Not for soldering, but extreme useful.
I've one of this Solder Pistols and I use it really often.

When you clamp a pice of stainless steel in them, you're able to melt them into broken plastic parts and fix them with it.

And if you clamp a coil of thick wire in them, they're extreme useful to demagnetise tools.
(Drill bits, calliper,....)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 22, 2018, 11:27:09 pm
Note regarding the newest PACE ADS200 station. Aaron from Pace is answering questions posted on EEVblog from this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/)

For now, here's the product brief and current version of the quickstart PDF
https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_6pg_Brochure_FINAL.pdf (https://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_6pg_Brochure_FINAL.pdf)
http://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_QuickStart_Manual_3-Mar-2018.pdf (http://www.paceworldwide.com/sites/default/files/ADS200_QuickStart_Manual_3-Mar-2018.pdf)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Rasz on March 23, 2018, 03:25:30 am
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.

you are in luck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-EaxWU70xM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-EaxWU70xM)


Im with Louis, never going back to 40 year old technology. $2-3 T12 chinese tips are fine compared to genuine Hakko, so economics have nothing to do with it.
Yes, 888 is good if you are into soldering thru hole kits and patching headphone cables.
Daves clip is a little weird, arguing for the outdated crap with a small mention at the end he uses JBC anyway ;-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 23, 2018, 10:05:28 am
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.
you are in luck
Not so fast, JBC tips are 3 ohms. TS-100 mosfet is 5 amps, so >15v would be unwise, so this mod only yields 75w (vs. 65w).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: chickenHeadKnob on March 23, 2018, 12:44:38 pm
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.
you are in luck
Not so fast, JBC tips are 3 ohms. TS-100 mosfet is 5 amps, so >15v would be unwise, so this mod only yields 75w (vs. 65w).

Yes they are about 2.9 ohms on the tips I have. Marco Reps addresses that in the video by simply limiting the PWM in the open source software. But that points out what I think is a bigger problem with the TS100 handheld unit. Namely that thermal dissipation is marginal at the maximum rated power, and in my unit results in occasional  flakey operation at 24V and high duty cycles.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: labjr on March 23, 2018, 01:14:34 pm
Whoever designed The TS100 would need to do a bit of a redesign for a high output bench model. That's okay. The iron is obviously is a good seller so they did something right. A reasonably priced high output bench model would likely be popular. However, it would be nice if the tips were more reasonably priced.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 23, 2018, 01:54:30 pm
It's fun we talk about big JBC tips working in something they were never intended for.. but at the end of the day, the topic should return to the worth-while merits of something so critical on the bench. I see a few:

1) A strong eco-system of quality cost effective tips that hold-up over time and always wet easy
2) A solid ESD-safe power delivery and responsive temperature control
3) A company that studies ergonomics and cares about what they do

I don't shill, but I do take notice when companies like Pace care enough to take questions in Manufacturing & Assembly (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/newest-pace-ads200-production-station-(a-jbc-killer-at-$239)/msg1459554/#msg1459554)  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: KL27x on March 26, 2018, 10:49:58 pm
Cartridge vs passive:

The idea is to
1. get the sensor closer to the soldering surface for a faster initial reaction time to a dip in temp
2. more closely couple the heater to the tip for faster and more efficient power coupling. I.e. out of the available power, more of it should get to the tip vs heat up the handle.

For tiny skinny pointy tips, none of this matters. When the heat has to travel through a skinny diameter of metal which is more iron than copper (if any), this is the bulk of the bottleneck. In my testing with this kind of tip, the T12 tip had zero measurable benefit over the passive. You still have to run the temp higher than normal, and you can't automatically solder to a ground plane without turning up the temp. The practical difference is zero.

For larger tips where you can actually effectively get the sensor and heater much closer to the tip, this can make a difference. In T12 vs 18, instead of capitalizing on this advantage, Hakko saves money on copper and puts half the copper and thermal mass in the T12 tip. So it ends up working barely better in some specific circumstances. Overall, it's essentially the same. They just get to charge twice a tip with half the copper and which lasts half as long.

Even with a big tip and fast response time, it takes time for heat to transfer to the joint. If this bottleneck were not so big, we should be able to practically solder at only a few degrees above the melting point of solder. This is NOT the case and it never will be. It's like when you fill your tires from an air compressor. If you want to fill your tire to 40PSI, and you set your regulator to 40PSI, you will be there for a really fucking long time. The closer the tire pressure gets to the regulator pressure, the more the air doesn't give a shit what side it's on. This is same for soldering a joint. If you want to make the joint fast, you need a significant temp differential to speed up the heat transfer. To fill your tire quickly, you may set your pressure to 80 and just be careful to not fall asleep and overfill the tire for an extra 4 minutes until it explodes.

Because of the bottle necks inherent in soldering and the inherent need to have some general but not super specific amoung of temp differential, catridge style tips have limited area to actually improve performance. If you want a to drag solder lug nuts with a BR tip at 300C, it ain't gonna happen (safely) no matter how much power you have. (And RF is gonna get you way closer than cartridge ever could). You need to up the temp differential to outpace the heatsinking because you're forcing the heat/power through the skinny tip and finite contact area. Temps, in this example, that will make the tip burn itself up. There is only so far you can go before you are just gonna have to wait for physics to happen.

If you look at the metcal recovery graph that Dave put up in his vid with the grey and red lines, you will see that for same given tip and thermal mass and power, a faster response time can increase the recovery time.... by a tiny fraction of a second. And if you are to do repeated joints of this exact size and exactly the same precise interval, you will voila... here's your improvement. Enjoy it. If you were to turn up the other iron 5 degrees, or give it 5% more power, or if you were to occasionally not solder like a robot, you might see they are now more or less effectively exactly the same. Pushing one station repeatedly exactly to its limit without a break, of course it will outpace another station that is even 1% not as capable, and over time this will become an impressive number to throw in the marketing brochure.

JBC is already pushing the boundaries by pushing enough power into the tip to reduce tip life. Part of this is because consumers want the lower heat up times in print. To increase the warm up time from cold, you need more power and less thermal mass. Many users would care more what happens after the tip is up to temp. And once the tip is to temp, that mass is working for you. It is not that impressive that a T12 3mm bevel tip can get to 300C a bit over half the time as the same tip in the 888. It literally has less than half the mass in the tip. Given they have similar power output, the better coupling thing doesn't really manifest much. The most impressive and possible only significant "performance" change between the two is the warm up time. This no doubt has a huge impact on consumer impression and sales, since this is a very visible and easily understood phenomenon. Actual practical results beyond that point? Who cares? It heats up faster. There are probably some gains achieved by fancier algorithms made possible by the faster sensor response, but this is pretty high hanging fruit and similar results could be achieved with potentially better overall performance if the stress wasn't placed on warmup speed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: MacMeter on March 28, 2018, 07:08:47 pm
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Maybe what we need is a stand to turn the TS100 into a soldering station? And while we're at it, a silicone sleeve to make it a bit bigger for engineers who aren't little Asian ladies. (Side note: at several companies I have worked at in the past, Vietnamese ladies tend to do the really intricate reworks.)

Hakko FH-300. There is a metal tab inside the square tip housing box/cage, bent it down a bit by had, so iron tip does not touch the cage and suck heat away.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: MacMeter on March 28, 2018, 08:47:17 pm
As I say, no need for you to review it, the mikeselecticstuff review serves just fine. [/s]

And how did Mike review it? As a PORTABLE iron!
This thing will never will in an overall comparison with a bench iron, it's clearly not designed for that purpose.
It if works for you for that purpose, then great, I'm happy for you. But I don't care how good it performs thermally, I'm never going to recommend such a thing as a replacement for a proper designed and engineered bench iron. If you can't but the thing as solution with a nice stand, nice power supply, properly designed leads and connector, and nice firmware (I've heard the stock one is crap), how could any competent reviewer of a soldering iron solution say this is anything but much worse in that respect?
What am I supposed to say, "buy this iron from here, download this firmware from here, but this power supply from this ebay seller here, this stand from this ebay seller, use this cable here, use this type of battery here"?, it's ridiculous.
It might be a fine performing direct heat soldering iron, but it's not a soldering iron station solution.

Quote
EDIT: I just re-read your final sentence, I look forward to when you do get around to reviewing it.

So you can watch my "biased" conclusion?  ::)

I agree with all your points. You shouldn’t bother with a review. The TS100 has plenty of reviews the past 1.5-2 years. For me personally, I don’t do a lot of soldering at home, so it was hard to justify the approx. $250 U.S. for a Hakko 961, but I wanted to try the newer style tips. For about less then a third of the cost, I bought the TS100, a few extra tips and a 24v power supply, and a Hakko FH-300 iron holder stand, not much in time other then online research and ordering. I also don’t have much use for its portability right now. Sure, you have to have the time and interest in trying the available firmware versions, so no it’s not going to be as quickly usable as an out of the box Hakko 961, but for a lot less money, you can get into the newer tips. Ergonomics are personal and therefore always debatable, but with the more flexible firmware, the TS100 is actually quite feature rich and seemed a lot more advanced then the budget Hakko 888. And even using it for short periods of time with the hard rubber cord from the power supply, has not been as big a deal as I thought it might be. I’m sure sooner or later I’ll make a nice silicone cable.

If I were soldering all the time, I would have gone for the 961, but after reading and watching all the positive things said about the TS100, as well as some using it full time as their desktop station. I figured it was a good idea to try this lower cost alternative. That’s my POV so far.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
Post by: DiddlyJackSquat on December 16, 2019, 06:07:06 am
I kinda wanna try one of these Chinesium T12 soldering station kits now. I like the OLED version, considering it does give a little more information on screen than the LED version does. I also would prefer the better handle... I see a lot of these kits come with what looks like a modified old school Hakko handle. If I'm gonna give this a shot, I want the better version. Anyone build one yet, or got a recommended version? I got a dozen tabs open, and payday coming tomorrow, so I'm thinking this is probably gonna happen, but I'm open to suggestions.
Old thread but my 2 cents
Over a year ago I upgraded from a 936 clone that has all the 936 bits... I changed the main board, front panel, the handle and wire itself then I saw my friend having a T12 so I bought the T12 with the OLED display with all the configuration stuff.
To be honest? Best station I ever had.

It is miles beyond my old 936 and clone tips are good and cheaper. Clone 936 tips are terrible and 936 tips cost 10$ a pop... 5x what I pay for clone T12 tips
My solder work is now faster, easier and way nicer aesthetically. Sure JBC performs better but they're double the power and over a magnitude more in price and their tips don't last nearly as long
FWIW, it was a great deal. And it was cheaper than my 936 clones...