Author Topic: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW  (Read 17733 times)

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Offline Towger

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EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« on: March 15, 2018, 01:29:24 pm »
 :palm: Where do HF RF powered curie point self regulating tip soldering irons come in the scale of Old vs New?

« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 09:41:38 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2018, 03:15:47 pm »
THe key difference i s the thermal contact area between the tip and heater. With an integrated tip this contact is perfect. With a tip in a sleeve there is a large air gap and the actual contact area is small ( the tip wiggles on the heater ). ideally you should put some thermal transfer compound in there ... but even then.

So an integrated tip has better thermal transfer and has better temperature sensing ( for the same reason) so the control loop behaves much much better.

RF powered tips will behave the same as the heating is direct in the tip. there is no 'contact transfer between heater cartridge and tip. the tip is the heater.

Depending on the construction of the iron the transfer is better or worse. I never liked the 'heater in a sleeve' type.
Weller has another type that uses end-to end contact (WSP80 series ) that ises very small tips like this :


The heater simply butts up to the tip .
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:18:59 pm by free_electron »
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Offline prof

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2018, 08:20:15 pm »
@Dave You can actually do much cheaper than the JBC. E.g. the Weller RT tips use a 3.5mm headphone jack and can be powered using PWMed 10-24V so there're tons of DIY soldering stations, e.g. the Maiskolben (https://github.com/ArduinoHannover/Maiskolben) for the genuine Weller tips. The station works really great and the tip selection is great with the biggest drawback being the price of the tips of course... Still I'd rather get the assembled Maiskolben and 2 Weller tips for the price of the "old style" Weller iron you've tested...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2018, 09:39:21 pm »
@Dave You can actually do much cheaper than the JBC.

Yes, I know, that's not the point of this video.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2018, 09:40:35 pm »
:palm: Where do HF RF powered curie point self regulating tip soldering irons come in the scale of Old vs New?

They are not adjustable temp irons like the integrated tip ones are. Another category entirely IMO. Yes I should have at least mentioned them.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2018, 10:05:27 pm »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
 
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Offline screwbreaker

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2018, 10:22:57 pm »
...
Weller has another type that uses end-to end contact (WSP80 series ) that ises very small tips like this :

...

I think small tips are also cheaper. For who needs to replace tips very often, for example repair labs, this can be an important factor.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2018, 10:27:34 pm »
I think small tips are also cheaper. For who needs to replace tips very often, for example repair labs, this can be an important factor.

The DIP blade FX951 T15 tips are very expensive compared to the normal size tips. Not sure if they actually cost more to make or they are just gouging because they are more "obscure".
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2018, 12:15:07 am »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(

why? It looks to be  direct heating  why does it matter if control do-that's are in the handle or in the power supply?
 

Offline llkiwi2006

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2018, 01:10:13 am »
I think the real comparison should be between a $50 chinese clone "new style" iron that takes T12 tips, and a "old style" iron like the FX-888D. After doing some research online, all the chinese clones seem to be of questionable quality. I think the response of the control loop will have an impact on the thermal performance, and it's unknown if they are doing this properly. Furthermore, it's not encouraging that all of the chinese clones are doing cold junction compensation incorrectly by putting the thermistor inside the main unit instead of in the handle where the cold junction actually is.

I am looking for a new iron to replace my cheapo fx936 clone, and I think I'll still go for a fx-888d. I was thinking there could be a open hardware project to use genuine fx951 handles, but it seems like the handle costs half as much as the unit. Maybe it could have a better ui, but it's definitely not going to be an improvement on cost.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2018, 02:08:05 am »
Meh, I solved the heat problem 20 years ago when I bought *two* Hakko 936 stations. When I do need more heat I put big tips on and that's it. It also helps removing SOICs by putting a T-K tip on each side. You can't beat two crappy irons even with the best single iron!
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2018, 02:18:59 am »
:palm: Where do HF RF powered curie point self regulating tip soldering irons come in the scale of Old vs New?

They are not adjustable temp irons like the integrated tip ones are. Another category entirely IMO. Yes I should have at least mentioned them.

I don't see why. The heater is integrated with the tip, and both the heating time and power delivery are in the same class as the best resistive heater irons. Hell, they got to that class before most if not all resistive irons. Just because you can't adjust a temperature which doesn't need adjusting, doesn't mean they're in a different category.
 

Offline richfiles

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2018, 04:48:12 am »
I kinda wanna try one of these Chinesium T12 soldering station kits now. I like the OLED version, considering it does give a little more information on screen than the LED version does. I also would prefer the better handle... I see a lot of these kits come with what looks like a modified old school Hakko handle. If I'm gonna give this a shot, I want the better version. Anyone build one yet, or got a recommended version? I got a dozen tabs open, and payday coming tomorrow, so I'm thinking this is probably gonna happen, but I'm open to suggestions.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2018, 04:49:46 am »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Maybe what we need is a stand to turn the TS100 into a soldering station? And while we're at it, a silicone sleeve to make it a bit bigger for engineers who aren't little Asian ladies. (Side note: at several companies I have worked at in the past, Vietnamese ladies tend to do the really intricate reworks.)
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Online BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2018, 04:54:08 am »
Dave, regarding your question on Hakko temperature sensor location, looking at the photo genuine Hakko ceramic heater under bright light that I took while ago, the sensor is near the tip, as seen that the smaller darker section near the edge.

Click to enlarge
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 11:01:22 am by BravoV »
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2018, 08:13:10 am »
With a tip in a sleeve there is a large air gap and the actual contact area is small
OK but you're not just relying on conduction. There is also thermal radiation, and the tip pretty well surrounds the element. Anyway, if the tool meets your needs, then what does it matter how it works?

Those tips with integrated heating must get expensive in the long run. One needs to factor that in when evaluating cost.

RF powered tips will behave the same...
Is that the same as induction heating? The Hakko FX-100 uses that technology but it's $600 and the tips are expensive.
 

Online wasyoungonce

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2018, 08:42:50 am »
I went back to older Royel soldering systems.....~70's ish watts full power, range of smaller irons, Vac-desolder irons,Theremal strippers, resistance soldering tweezers but it just works well....within +/- 5ºC of setting.  Well it should. I believe it was the first Mil Spec system able to keep such a tight tolerance at the tip and while I don't appear to get the specific tightness in tolerance when on something that wicks heat away rapidly it still maintains heat very well, much much better than the Hakko 936...way better.

So I guess it's what you get used to working with....I've purchased quite a few older Royel systems from fleabay including a few single stations and a couple of dual multi-purpose AIO's including around 2 dozen irons. Royel was the first to use silicon heat resistant leads but did get the primary inner insulation wrong it tends to corrode the wires and flake away after decades, easily fixed these days.

Oh anyone looking at new Royel....forget it they have well and truly gone to the dogs.  I ordered one of their new irons to test it against the older ones...what a disappointment they were truly trash.  I think it was Alan Wash who did a lot of real decent design work with that company...he'd be devastated at what's happened to it.
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Offline PA4TIM

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2018, 09:34:32 am »
I made the mistake to switch to thew "new" marketing hype.  >:D I have two 2 year old Metcal I retired after 1,5 years.  The performance was great and it was fast but the quality sucked and tips were insane expensive and lasted not long. I switched back to my faithful old Pace after that.  I have around 10 different tips (desolder and solder) and around 15 spares on stock. If I had 25 tips for metcal it would cost a fortune (30-40 euro/tip)

I think I solder more with an iron as Louis. But he does more with hot air as me. I often have PCBs that can not be tested/powered and I must desolder/solder many parts to test. (a few hundred joints a day is not uncommon) Often through hole and often conformal coated. I also switch tips often.

It is a bit a pity there was a huge difference in power in this test. You mentioned it several times but it is the same as with DMM's, many people think they are all equal, good and safe and only see what they want to see and fits their wallet. I see a lot of butchered boards killed by crappy soldering tools. (I also repair PCB's (traces, pads, burned etc))

My old Pace is always around 320C. My Weller a 80W WS81 is always at 450C. It works great at that temp but at 320C it has limitations and works like your Hakko. The Pace PS90 is a Weller on steroids. But expensive. Mine is the old sensatype but I still can buy all the parts. The sensors Pace use are very precise. tips last a long time.

What I see as a potential problem for cartridge heaters is imitation. The performance is for a very huge part tip and power related. Lots of room to cheat.
I think they need high power because the whole cartridge is radiating heat and has not much mass.

For me fast heating is no real plus. I think the ulta fast heating and cooling is not be best for the material but I could be wrong. Easy tip change is important for me . The metcal was a pain with the rubber sheet ( to thick to place the tip in the stand with it) The Weller I unscrew and drop it in a tin can. The Pace has a special  tool. I loose the screw a 1/4th turn with that tool. Grab the tip with the tool and drop it in the tipholder. Grab an other one, stick it in and turn the screw. Does not have to be tight. Sometimes I forget the screw but the tips do not fall out (as they are hot)
That screw is a good example of killing a good working system by imitation.


« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 09:41:35 am by PA4TIM »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2018, 09:38:27 am »
It is a bit a pity there was a huge difference in power in this test.

 
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Offline screwbreaker

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2018, 10:03:50 am »
...
My old Pace is always around 320C. My Weller a 80W WS81 is always at 450C. It works great at that temp but at 320C it has limitations and works like your Hakko. The Pace PS90 is a Weller on steroids. But expensive. Mine is the old sensatype but I still can buy all the parts. The sensors Pace use are very precise. tips last a long time.
 ...

I don't know what handpiece you are using with the WS81, I presume the WSP80. In this case you cannot compare the two systems. The PS90 has much more thermal capabilities than the WSP80. The WSP80 is in the same class of PACE TD-100. They are made to be light and small, they are not suitable for every type of works. Especially works which involves high thermal masses. An equivalent handpiece for the WS81 can be the LR 21.
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2018, 11:40:40 am »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(

I looked at the TS100 but after downloading the manual and reading it talking to a couple of people i think it's a fail.
I would much rather buy the Hakko FX-888D...

I just discovered (as mentioned on youtube) that Aoyue has a couple of direct heating stations nice bench stations..
The  Aoyue 2901 with a knob and the cheaper Aoyue 2900..

http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2900-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html

http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2901-analog-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html

One thing i'm starting to notice looking at all these soldering stations aimed towards the Chinese market..
That seem to find their way in to the EU and US market  ;D

It's like they build the tech in to them and started doing a good job.. but near the end they mess up.
I looked around on youtube for the Aoyue 2901 and found someone doing a teardown of the handle..
They seem to cut corners near the end giving you the nice modern heating element and the soldering tips are €14,50 so not cheap ... There is also a teardown of the "AOYUE 2900 LEAD FREE " his English is not that good but ok...
Build seems to be good...
i recon worth your time???..
 

Offline PA4TIM

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2018, 12:40:40 pm »
Quote
screwbreaker: I don't know what handpiece you are using with the WS81, I presume the WSP80. In this case you cannot compare the two systems. The PS90 has much more thermal capabilities than the WSP80. The WSP80 is in the same class of PACE TD-100. They are made to be light and small, they are not suitable for every type of works. Especially works which involves high thermal masses. An equivalent handpiece for the WS81 can be the LR 21.

Yes, I use the WSP80, a 80W iron. I use it mostly for SMD with a small gullwing. With the standard  chisel tip  I do not have to crack up the temp.  Tips are very cheap and last a very long time.

The PS-90 is "only" 65W
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Offline Gyro

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2018, 01:08:48 pm »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(

Good decision. Not reviewing is better starting one with a prejudice.  :-+
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2018, 01:24:37 pm »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Good decision. Not reviewing is better starting one with a prejudice.  :-+

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see, without even having used the TS100 that:
1) It's a tiny iron designed for portable use
2) It doesn't come with any bench stand
3) It's power output varies greatly with the supply used.
4) It uses any generic power lead with requisite issues with piss-poor strain relief, contact issues due to barrel jack compatibility, flexibility and handling issues as a result, and no burn-proof lead.
5) It comes from a no-name manufacturer and the longevity of the support for it would almost guaranteed zero.

And people want me to compare this with a properly designed bench soldering station that are designed to be very reliable and last decades?

Yeah, I'm biased...

It's like asking for a review of a pen-style multimeter compared to a regular handheld one.

And I didn't say I'm not going to review it, I'm just saying I'm not going to compare it in a shootout with bench stations.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 01:29:30 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2018, 02:30:35 pm »
No offense intended.  :)

Your reply does however, back up the reason why you definitely should not review it in this context. Items 1-4 are either non issues (size - convenient and well balanced when decent silicone cord is factored in), can fixed with a minimum of ingenuity and cost (power, stand, burn-proof cord, decent laptop style barrel jack), or false ("piss-poor strain relief"). Being able to input into its operating f/w is great. I've happily adopted it as my main iron in preference to my Weller at 24V.

As I say, no need for you to review it, the mikeselecticstuff review serves just fine.


EDIT: I just re-read your final sentence, I look forward to when you do get around to reviewing it.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 02:41:13 pm by Gyro »
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