Author Topic: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW  (Read 17726 times)

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Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2018, 05:54:12 pm »
5) It comes from a no-name manufacturer and the longevity of the support for it would almost guaranteed zero.

Weeeell, its not that important, i for instance dont buy Lewis jeans just because its a long time brand, overpriced like hell their jeans and just a brand among others who uses the same Indian, Vietnam child laborer to make them.

Is it important if a car is Ford Volvo or Fiat? Old brands all of them and knowing Fiat is crap so the "brand" didnt help much. I dont want support, i want cheap decent quality that works without support. I dont want USB on my soddering pen.

Huge number of people are waiting for your T100 review.

Oh, its Friday i'l have to get another beer! :)

Here a slodering pen kit, the dude is even using a soldering pen to solder a soldering pen!
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-DIY-Electric-Unit-High-quality-Basic-Ability-PracticalDigital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-T12/32691225273.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000023.3.53284257bHupLI

https://videocdn.taobao.com/oss/taobao-ugc/7e6919c49621498f8c4b7e490aeb8473/1478835900/video.mp4
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2018, 05:54:31 pm »
old style, but with a metal wrap around the heating element that touches the tip: Weller WXP 65 Watt



 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2018, 07:42:39 pm »
Those tips with integrated heating must get expensive in the long run. One needs to factor that in when evaluating cost.
That's what I felt it was a bit missing in Dave's video, a some explanation on the economics of running a soldering iron (both 'old' and 'new' type).
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2018, 08:30:13 pm »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Good decision. Not reviewing is better starting one with a prejudice.  :-+

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see, without even having used the TS100 that:
1) It's a tiny iron designed for portable use
2) It doesn't come with any bench stand
3) It's power output varies greatly with the supply used.
4) It uses any generic power lead with requisite issues with piss-poor strain relief, contact issues due to barrel jack compatibility, flexibility and handling issues as a result, and no burn-proof lead.
5) It comes from a no-name manufacturer and the longevity of the support for it would almost guaranteed zero.

And people want me to compare this with a properly designed bench soldering station that are designed to be very reliable and last decades?

Yeah, I'm biased...

It's like asking for a review of a pen-style multimeter compared to a regular handheld one.

And I didn't say I'm not going to review it, I'm just saying I'm not going to compare it in a shootout with bench stations.
Bigger issue: The ergonomics are absolutely non existent.
There is no rubber to grab on, there is no endstop for your finger.

But more soldering videos incoming  :-+
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2018, 08:42:46 pm »
Quote
Bigger issue: The ergonomics are absolutely non existent.
There is no rubber to grab on, there is no endstop for your finger.

As I said, only a little ingenuity required. There is a convenient step at the top of the element which is perfect for seating a thick ptfe washer - voila, an endstop for your fingers. The shape is fine for gripping. A little effort makes a big difference to ergonomics. A decent weight silicone cable and good quality plug complete the transformation.



« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 08:51:56 pm by Gyro »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2018, 10:15:17 pm »
THe key difference i s the thermal contact area between the tip and heater. With an integrated tip this contact is perfect. With a tip in a sleeve there is a large air gap and the actual contact area is small ( the tip wiggles on the heater ). ideally you should put some thermal transfer compound in there ... but even then.

So an integrated tip has better thermal transfer and has better temperature sensing ( for the same reason) so the control loop behaves much much better.
That may be but Ersa has been using the tip-over-heater system for decades and their irons work well. The Ersa system also allows to change tips quickly. The long metal sleeve on the irons Dave is testing in the video make it very inconvenient to change the tips because they needs to be unscrewed and the sleeve will be hot and need care to handle.

For kicks I did the same test Dave as with my 80W ERSA iron (RDS80 soldering station) and I get close to what Dave shows with the 135W JBC iron at 240 deg C. without needing to crank the heat up. Ofcourse there is a big difference in the amount of power (135W is 68% more than 80W) which will attribute to the better results the JBC is showing but that is by no means ground for saying new is better than old.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 10:23:18 pm by nctnico »
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Offline labjr

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2018, 10:20:32 pm »
I don't know why there's not an iron for the bench similar to the TS100 design with a stand, a linear power supply and burn-proof cord etc. It's not rocket science anymore. There's plenty of knock-off parts for the FX-951. Including entire stations.  So why not something that's not a total rip-off?
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2018, 10:35:40 pm »
I don't know why there's not an iron for the bench similar to the TS100 design with a stand, a linear power supply and burn-proof cord etc. It's not rocket science anymore. There's plenty of knock-off parts for the FX-951. Including entire stations.  So why not something that's not a total rip-off?

No market? If there was money in it, it would be a thriving product.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2018, 11:16:22 pm »
Huge number of people are waiting for your T100 review.

And I suspect a large number of those people just want me to validate their purchase  ::)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2018, 11:28:14 pm »
As I say, no need for you to review it, the mikeselecticstuff review serves just fine. [/s]

And how did Mike review it? As a PORTABLE iron!
This thing will never will in an overall comparison with a bench iron, it's clearly not designed for that purpose.
It if works for you for that purpose, then great, I'm happy for you. But I don't care how good it performs thermally, I'm never going to recommend such a thing as a replacement for a proper designed and engineered bench iron. If you can't but the thing as solution with a nice stand, nice power supply, properly designed leads and connector, and nice firmware (I've heard the stock one is crap), how could any competent reviewer of a soldering iron solution say this is anything but much worse in that respect?
What am I supposed to say, "buy this iron from here, download this firmware from here, but this power supply from this ebay seller here, this stand from this ebay seller, use this cable here, use this type of battery here"?, it's ridiculous.
It might be a fine performing direct heat soldering iron, but it's not a soldering iron station solution.

Quote
EDIT: I just re-read your final sentence, I look forward to when you do get around to reviewing it.

So you can watch my "biased" conclusion?  ::)
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2018, 11:51:44 pm »
I think the real comparison should be between a $50 chinese clone "new style" iron that takes T12 tips, and a "old style" iron like the FX-888D. After doing some research online, all the chinese clones seem to be of questionable quality. I think the response of the control loop will have an impact on the thermal performance, and it's unknown if they are doing this properly. Furthermore, it's not encouraging that all of the chinese clones are doing cold junction compensation incorrectly by putting the thermistor inside the main unit instead of in the handle where the cold junction actually is.

The control loop seems fine, you can use your own custom firmware and PID tuning if you get the STM32 unit (check the forum here, someone recently posted a link).
Cold junction is not always in the base, I bought a $9 T12 handle and it included the glass NTC. You have to look for 5 vs 4 wire connectors to the iron, if its 5 it probably has the extra connection for the thermistor.

Quote
I am looking for a new iron to replace my cheapo fx936 clone, and I think I'll still go for a fx-888d. I was thinking there could be a open hardware project to use genuine fx951 handles, but it seems like the handle costs half as much as the unit. Maybe it could have a better ui, but it's definitely not going to be an improvement on cost.

Whats wrong with using a clone handle? I would gladly use a cheap clone handle over the FX888D handle (ergonomics). Others might disagree of course.
If you are going to buy a genuine handle I would get JBC or metcal, but they are about $120 (MX-H1-AV), and DIY kits are a little more complicated, as with high tip prices.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2018, 11:54:40 pm »
Anyone wants to take a look at those new, $250~$400 range Quick irons? They seem to be good options for low cost RF or direct heat irons.
 

Offline labjr

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2018, 12:42:16 am »

No market? If there was money in it, it would be a thriving product.

No market! There would be a good market for a nice 100+ watt station for the bench. The problem is that the Chinese seem to be better at rip-offs than actually designing something new. How about a good rip-off of a JBC 135W iron for $100?  And with $3 cartridge tips?

No reason why there shouldn't be brand name irons with quick heating integrated cartridge tips under $100 by now anyway.


 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2018, 12:52:51 am »
I don't know why there's not an iron for the bench similar to the TS100 design with a stand, a linear power supply and burn-proof cord etc. It's not rocket science anymore. There's plenty of knock-off parts for the FX-951. Including entire stations.  So why not something that's not a total rip-off?
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

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Offline labjr

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2018, 01:16:34 am »
I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.

I'm guess that brand name irons have linear supplies because they're less complex and more reliable. Besides, men think more weight means better value.  ;D
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 01:35:41 am by labjr »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2018, 01:26:23 am »
I'm guess that brand name irons have linear supplies because they're less complex and more reliable. Besides, men think more weight means better value.  ;D

Metcal uses SMPS, and they are heavy as rock due to the HUGE cast aluminum casing/heatsink.
 

Offline labjr

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2018, 01:40:33 am »
Metcal uses SMPS, and they are heavy as rock due to the HUGE cast aluminum casing/heatsink.

I knew someone was gonna bring up Metcal!  I wonder if they use an aluminum case to shield RFI/EMI radiation from the Power supply and RF carrier for the iron. Metcal reminds of an old drive-in speaker.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2018, 01:48:59 am »

What happened to the video and my comments?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2018, 02:03:40 am »
It seems to me that the TS100 has bridged the gap between bench and portable and that is why so many want a comparison review. Another reason to make the review to try to pin down where on the line from bench to strictly portable the TS100 lies.

It's a moving goalpost depending upon individual needs.
If you are after a cheap bench soldering station, I'd bet my bottom dollar that the ripoff Hakko FX-951 will be MUCH more usable than the TS-100.
That would be a review I might do. Although it's probably not good to recommend a rip-off product from an ethics point of view I guess. Hakko worked hard to do that R&D.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2018, 02:04:36 am »

What happened to the video and my comments?

I'm uploading a new version with lots of added stuff. That was just a single take 10min video. Sorry, old comments will be lost, that's how youtube works.
 

Online TheSteve

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2018, 02:06:56 am »
old style, but with a metal wrap around the heating element that touches the tip: Weller WXP 65 Watt

The WXP65 is quite impressive, I use one pretty much daily. So far the most impressive iron I have used.
VE7FM
 

Offline gearshredder

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2018, 02:11:03 am »
Everyone wants a bench TS-100 but you already have one.. A fx-951/950 and others. The TS-100 has modified tips based off of the cartridge heater of the Hakko.
 

Offline labjr

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2018, 02:27:19 am »
The FX-951 is getting a bit long in the tooth. Time to put out something over 120w that can light up higher mass tips.
 

Offline gearshredder

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2018, 02:41:19 am »
well, you've got the fx-206 for 1400$ or Fx-801 (300W) lol
 

Offline labjr

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2018, 02:47:34 am »
well, you've got the fx-206 for 1400$ or Fx-801 (300W) lol

The Pace ADS200 coming out is 120W. $219 at TEquipment. Has a line of High mass tips too for about $13 ea. 
 


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