Author Topic: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW  (Read 17740 times)

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Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2018, 03:25:30 am »
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.

you are in luck




Im with Louis, never going back to 40 year old technology. $2-3 T12 chinese tips are fine compared to genuine Hakko, so economics have nothing to do with it.
Yes, 888 is good if you are into soldering thru hole kits and patching headphone cables.
Daves clip is a little weird, arguing for the outdated crap with a small mention at the end he uses JBC anyway ;-)
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Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2018, 10:05:28 am »
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.
you are in luck
Not so fast, JBC tips are 3 ohms. TS-100 mosfet is 5 amps, so >15v would be unwise, so this mod only yields 75w (vs. 65w).
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2018, 12:44:38 pm »
If there was a bench version of the TS100, I would like to see the option for 150W+ tips for large connections. For that matter, I don't see why the regular TS100 couldn't be upgraded for more power. High current MOSFETs are tiny.

I also don't see the value in a linear power supply when it's well into the power level where a good switcher is far cheaper.
you are in luck
Not so fast, JBC tips are 3 ohms. TS-100 mosfet is 5 amps, so >15v would be unwise, so this mod only yields 75w (vs. 65w).

Yes they are about 2.9 ohms on the tips I have. Marco Reps addresses that in the video by simply limiting the PWM in the open source software. But that points out what I think is a bigger problem with the TS100 handheld unit. Namely that thermal dissipation is marginal at the maximum rated power, and in my unit results in occasional  flakey operation at 24V and high duty cycles.
 

Offline labjr

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2018, 01:14:34 pm »
Whoever designed The TS100 would need to do a bit of a redesign for a high output bench model. That's okay. The iron is obviously is a good seller so they did something right. A reasonably priced high output bench model would likely be popular. However, it would be nice if the tips were more reasonably priced.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 01:29:12 pm by labjr »
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2018, 01:54:30 pm »
It's fun we talk about big JBC tips working in something they were never intended for.. but at the end of the day, the topic should return to the worth-while merits of something so critical on the bench. I see a few:

1) A strong eco-system of quality cost effective tips that hold-up over time and always wet easy
2) A solid ESD-safe power delivery and responsive temperature control
3) A company that studies ergonomics and cares about what they do

I don't shill, but I do take notice when companies like Pace care enough to take questions in Manufacturing & Assembly  :-+
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2018, 10:49:58 pm »
Cartridge vs passive:

The idea is to
1. get the sensor closer to the soldering surface for a faster initial reaction time to a dip in temp
2. more closely couple the heater to the tip for faster and more efficient power coupling. I.e. out of the available power, more of it should get to the tip vs heat up the handle.

For tiny skinny pointy tips, none of this matters. When the heat has to travel through a skinny diameter of metal which is more iron than copper (if any), this is the bulk of the bottleneck. In my testing with this kind of tip, the T12 tip had zero measurable benefit over the passive. You still have to run the temp higher than normal, and you can't automatically solder to a ground plane without turning up the temp. The practical difference is zero.

For larger tips where you can actually effectively get the sensor and heater much closer to the tip, this can make a difference. In T12 vs 18, instead of capitalizing on this advantage, Hakko saves money on copper and puts half the copper and thermal mass in the T12 tip. So it ends up working barely better in some specific circumstances. Overall, it's essentially the same. They just get to charge twice a tip with half the copper and which lasts half as long.

Even with a big tip and fast response time, it takes time for heat to transfer to the joint. If this bottleneck were not so big, we should be able to practically solder at only a few degrees above the melting point of solder. This is NOT the case and it never will be. It's like when you fill your tires from an air compressor. If you want to fill your tire to 40PSI, and you set your regulator to 40PSI, you will be there for a really fucking long time. The closer the tire pressure gets to the regulator pressure, the more the air doesn't give a shit what side it's on. This is same for soldering a joint. If you want to make the joint fast, you need a significant temp differential to speed up the heat transfer. To fill your tire quickly, you may set your pressure to 80 and just be careful to not fall asleep and overfill the tire for an extra 4 minutes until it explodes.

Because of the bottle necks inherent in soldering and the inherent need to have some general but not super specific amoung of temp differential, catridge style tips have limited area to actually improve performance. If you want a to drag solder lug nuts with a BR tip at 300C, it ain't gonna happen (safely) no matter how much power you have. (And RF is gonna get you way closer than cartridge ever could). You need to up the temp differential to outpace the heatsinking because you're forcing the heat/power through the skinny tip and finite contact area. Temps, in this example, that will make the tip burn itself up. There is only so far you can go before you are just gonna have to wait for physics to happen.

If you look at the metcal recovery graph that Dave put up in his vid with the grey and red lines, you will see that for same given tip and thermal mass and power, a faster response time can increase the recovery time.... by a tiny fraction of a second. And if you are to do repeated joints of this exact size and exactly the same precise interval, you will voila... here's your improvement. Enjoy it. If you were to turn up the other iron 5 degrees, or give it 5% more power, or if you were to occasionally not solder like a robot, you might see they are now more or less effectively exactly the same. Pushing one station repeatedly exactly to its limit without a break, of course it will outpace another station that is even 1% not as capable, and over time this will become an impressive number to throw in the marketing brochure.

JBC is already pushing the boundaries by pushing enough power into the tip to reduce tip life. Part of this is because consumers want the lower heat up times in print. To increase the warm up time from cold, you need more power and less thermal mass. Many users would care more what happens after the tip is up to temp. And once the tip is to temp, that mass is working for you. It is not that impressive that a T12 3mm bevel tip can get to 300C a bit over half the time as the same tip in the 888. It literally has less than half the mass in the tip. Given they have similar power output, the better coupling thing doesn't really manifest much. The most impressive and possible only significant "performance" change between the two is the warm up time. This no doubt has a huge impact on consumer impression and sales, since this is a very visible and easily understood phenomenon. Actual practical results beyond that point? Who cares? It heats up faster. There are probably some gains achieved by fancier algorithms made possible by the faster sensor response, but this is pretty high hanging fruit and similar results could be achieved with potentially better overall performance if the stress wasn't placed on warmup speed.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 01:12:49 am by KL27x »
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2018, 07:08:47 pm »
If another person asks me to compare the TS100 open source iron to a bench soldering station, I'm going to kill a cute puppy  >:(
Maybe what we need is a stand to turn the TS100 into a soldering station? And while we're at it, a silicone sleeve to make it a bit bigger for engineers who aren't little Asian ladies. (Side note: at several companies I have worked at in the past, Vietnamese ladies tend to do the really intricate reworks.)

Hakko FH-300. There is a metal tab inside the square tip housing box/cage, bent it down a bit by had, so iron tip does not touch the cage and suck heat away.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 08:55:56 pm by MacMeter »
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2018, 08:47:17 pm »
As I say, no need for you to review it, the mikeselecticstuff review serves just fine. [/s]

And how did Mike review it? As a PORTABLE iron!
This thing will never will in an overall comparison with a bench iron, it's clearly not designed for that purpose.
It if works for you for that purpose, then great, I'm happy for you. But I don't care how good it performs thermally, I'm never going to recommend such a thing as a replacement for a proper designed and engineered bench iron. If you can't but the thing as solution with a nice stand, nice power supply, properly designed leads and connector, and nice firmware (I've heard the stock one is crap), how could any competent reviewer of a soldering iron solution say this is anything but much worse in that respect?
What am I supposed to say, "buy this iron from here, download this firmware from here, but this power supply from this ebay seller here, this stand from this ebay seller, use this cable here, use this type of battery here"?, it's ridiculous.
It might be a fine performing direct heat soldering iron, but it's not a soldering iron station solution.

Quote
EDIT: I just re-read your final sentence, I look forward to when you do get around to reviewing it.

So you can watch my "biased" conclusion?  ::)

I agree with all your points. You shouldn’t bother with a review. The TS100 has plenty of reviews the past 1.5-2 years. For me personally, I don’t do a lot of soldering at home, so it was hard to justify the approx. $250 U.S. for a Hakko 961, but I wanted to try the newer style tips. For about less then a third of the cost, I bought the TS100, a few extra tips and a 24v power supply, and a Hakko FH-300 iron holder stand, not much in time other then online research and ordering. I also don’t have much use for its portability right now. Sure, you have to have the time and interest in trying the available firmware versions, so no it’s not going to be as quickly usable as an out of the box Hakko 961, but for a lot less money, you can get into the newer tips. Ergonomics are personal and therefore always debatable, but with the more flexible firmware, the TS100 is actually quite feature rich and seemed a lot more advanced then the budget Hakko 888. And even using it for short periods of time with the hard rubber cord from the power supply, has not been as big a deal as I thought it might be. I’m sure sooner or later I’ll make a nice silicone cable.

If I were soldering all the time, I would have gone for the 961, but after reading and watching all the positive things said about the TS100, as well as some using it full time as their desktop station. I figured it was a good idea to try this lower cost alternative. That’s my POV so far.
 

Offline DiddlyJackSquat

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Re: EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2019, 06:07:06 am »
I kinda wanna try one of these Chinesium T12 soldering station kits now. I like the OLED version, considering it does give a little more information on screen than the LED version does. I also would prefer the better handle... I see a lot of these kits come with what looks like a modified old school Hakko handle. If I'm gonna give this a shot, I want the better version. Anyone build one yet, or got a recommended version? I got a dozen tabs open, and payday coming tomorrow, so I'm thinking this is probably gonna happen, but I'm open to suggestions.
Old thread but my 2 cents
Over a year ago I upgraded from a 936 clone that has all the 936 bits... I changed the main board, front panel, the handle and wire itself then I saw my friend having a T12 so I bought the T12 with the OLED display with all the configuration stuff.
To be honest? Best station I ever had.

It is miles beyond my old 936 and clone tips are good and cheaper. Clone 936 tips are terrible and 936 tips cost 10$ a pop... 5x what I pay for clone T12 tips
My solder work is now faster, easier and way nicer aesthetically. Sure JBC performs better but they're double the power and over a magnitude more in price and their tips don't last nearly as long
FWIW, it was a great deal. And it was cheaper than my 936 clones...
 
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