Author Topic: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained  (Read 8426 times)

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Offline TuxKey

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 12:58:51 pm »
i just contacted Aoyue eu. And told them about the nice EEVblog coverage related to soldering technologies.
In my opinion the best if not the only in depth / informative series on soldering..  :-+ and more to come  :)

So i told them the only thing missing is in the comparison is an Aoyue product and that i couldn't find any reviews of their soldering iron with the new tech. like the 2901 and the digital 2900....
Asking them if they would consider sending one to David for review...
Will see what their answer is  ;D

for anyone wondering to what device i'm referring to:
http://www.aoyue.eu/aoyue-soldering-hotair-rework-desoldering-station-preheater-repairing/aoyue-adjustable-digital-station-lead-free-soldering-iron/aoyue-int2900-digital-lead-free-soldering-station-smd-soldering-iron-wq-serie.html

The real deal is how the tip was built + fit into the heater rod "optimally".

Aoyue, Quick and those Chinese soldering iron manufacturers are basically started their business by cloning Hakko 936.

Until nowadays, I don't see many reviewers review the tip technology involved.

Say using FX-888D (same heater & tip as Hakko 936), using the real tip vs dodgy one is pretty obvious, don't need to scientifically test them, you can instantly feel the difference between genuine tip vs 1 dollar tip.

As above close up photos, the genuine one has a proper copper insert or maybe coating ? While the 2nd dodgy one, the hole is off center and has a tiny crack (if you look carefully), while the 3rd one is basically hopeless, its made from steel with no copper inside what so ever.

good point  :-+ looking around on Youtube i did find FFcossag channel he did a teardown of the Aoyue 2901 handle i really liked.. seems exactly what your saying.. so it seems i'm better of with a Hakko FX-888D or something that is decently constructed as the TS-100 will be waiting because there might me something new on the horizon from the TS-100 camp..
https://youtu.be/e-N-GK5DJ_g
 

Offline TuxKey

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 01:05:46 pm »
i just received a reply from the people at WilTec they do the distribution in europe for the Aoyue brand or so it seems..

So yesterday i contacted them with this email;

Dear Aoyue,

I'm contacting you because i'm interested in your products but unsure of the quality control and find the number of good in depth reviews of your hardware lacking. I live in The Netherlands and i'm looking to buy a new soldering and desoldering sollution. i'm looking to buy Hakko or Aoyue pretty much all other brands are out.

Last couple of weeks soldering irons have bin a hot topic on EEVblog youtube channel and EEVblog forums.
The question raised is "New vs old technology". The newer being the soldering tips that house the heating element all in one tips vs the older ones that have a separate heating element and tip.
Dave from EEVblog does good job covering this simple yet complex subject of which one is better. in most cases like everything in life it depends on the use case but still there are clear advantages to the models that have the heating element and tips all in one. The Hakko FX-951 costs around €280 vs the Hakko FX-888D €98. while you sell the Leadfree soldering station int2900 digital for €63 ....

In all the comparisons Dave does on EEVblog he is comparing the Hakko FX-888D & JBC CD-2B & Weller WE1010.
But in my opinion there is a good option missing in this comparison and that's the "Aoyue 2900".

Therefore my question is why don't you send him a station to do an in depth review???
i don't know if he is willing to do the review and if youre able to send him a station at all but in my humble opinion Aoyue needs a bit more coverage and mentions in discussions about which soldering irons to buy...

videos mentioned:

EEVblog #1063 - Weller WE1010 vs Hakko FX888D Soldering Station
#https://youtu.be/tlKg6rSMPEs

EEVblog #1064 - Soldering Irons OLD vs NEW
#https://youtu.be/scvS2yeUH00

EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
#https://youtu.be/yyt0X2CGDRM

With regards


Their response was;

Dear Customer,

Thank you for your friendly e-mail.

I´m really sorry but we can´t sent test-station to everybody who want to test it and make a review of it.

Have a nice day.

Für Rückfragen stehe ich Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
If you require any further information, feel free to contact me.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Eschweiler
Best regards from Germany

Nicole Lingens


Ahh well  :palm:
It's all ok everyone is free to do what's best for them.. i will have to base my next purchase with the info i have and can find.
So for now it's looking like Aoyue is loosing from what i'm reading.. 
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2018, 01:57:05 pm »
For hobby use, I like the primitive analog control loop solder stations, with just a temperature control knob (i.e. Hakko 936 et al).

- Cheap.  You can have 2 of them on the go with different tip sizes, overall faster and better than one single "good" unit with tip changes

- Super fast to change temperature up and down with the knob (use as manual setback temperature control for tip life)

- For really serious thermal sinking projects, a Weller 140/100W soldering gun will destroy any soldering station (and the board too, if not careful!)
 

Offline hli

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2018, 02:24:55 pm »
It's not a fixed amount, but the amount is dependet of the thermal current.
Thinking of thermal current (applied heat) instead of temperature explains this much better. Thanks!
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2018, 07:06:39 pm »
With a purely "resistive" model, the tip would always be colder than the temperature at the point of measurement, by a fixed (or maybe proportional) amount. I understand that. This can be handled by defining an offset temperature. But it does not explain the delay in regulation, and why the Hakko does not go into full-power mode when the temperature drops too low (which it should when soldering on a big ground plane).

That's what I was thinking. There has to be a way to model the relationship between sensor and tip temperature in firmware.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2018, 01:56:34 am »
That's what I was thinking. There has to be a way to model the relationship between sensor and tip temperature in firmware.

That could be fun.

The big unknown is the rate of heat loss from the tip to the joint.  Are you soldering a single pin to a thin track or a spade connector to a massive ground plane?  You would need to integrate the power over time and correlate sensed temperature against the physical arrangement of the system.
 

Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 04:16:07 pm »
In the video he made an heat transfer analogy:
Just as water will only boil at 100degC regardless of amount of heating power.

It's guaranteed that making a god soddering joint at -20degC will require a lot more heating power.

Charles Darwin's The Voyage of the Beagle:

"Having crossed the Peuquenes (Piuquenes), we descended into a mountainous country, intermediate between the two main ranges, and then took up our quarters for the night. We were now in the republic of Mendoza. The elevation was probably not under 11,000 feet [...]. At the place where we slept water necessarily boiled, from the diminished pressure of the atmosphere, at a lower temperature than it does in a less lofty country; the case being the converse of that of a Papin's digester. Hence the potatoes, after remaining for some hours in the boiling water, were nearly as hard as ever. The pot was left on the fire all night, and next morning it was boiled again, but yet the potatoes were not cooked."
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2018, 07:07:23 pm »
This explains why RF is always going to demolish nichrome heating in the really skinny pointy tips. No temperature gradient has to be suffered between the tip and the heater.

You could put a temp sensor on the joint/heatsink. Then up the set temp on the Hakko until the sensor readings on the joint match with the JBC. This would illustrate how much more temperature drop/gradient the hakko has under this particular load, with this particular tip. And it would serve to show how much hotter you would have to run the Hakko in order to get a similar performance for this particular type of simulated task. It seems like this is the part that is missing to link the theoretical difference to practical. We know one is better in this regard. But we don't have any indication of how much. Does the hakko catch up at 275 or 350? I am curious if JBC users actually routinely solder boards at set temp of 270C. That would be pretty impressive.  Most of my soldering is done at a verified 315C with my 888, FWIW, (leaded, of course, and 2 sided boards).

The theoretical benefit of being able to run the JBC at a lower temp (how much lower, we don't really know from this demonstration) and thusly increasing tip life is, of course, theoretical. I'll add another theoretical benefit of less frequent tip cleaning, due to less flux burning/boiling at this lower set/no-load temp) But in practice, it could very well go the other way around, due to various other factors in the tip construction and material selection and manufacturing processes, or even available tip styles. The hakko tip might end up lasting longer (and perhaps even require less frequent cleaning) even if you have to run it X degrees higher for what you need the stations to do for you. And of course, in practice, the cost of the tips is going to be a factor in which one ultimately performs "better," once we pass a certain threshold of "they last long enough."

It is interesting to know the how and why and the real, actual improvement that JBC has attained. I don't question that it is better in this thermal drop/gradient. But I wonder how much gain this is? This could be a giant, practical improvement. Or, for all we know, it is simply scraping the bottom of the barrel for that last little bit of efficiency that is left on the table which amounts to little more than bragging rights. If the latter is the case, it wouldn't stop the marketing team, nor consumer imagination, from turning a mountain out of a molehill.

The most important thing is how it works in practice for what you use it for. Costs, availability, ergos, and all that other stuff inevitably comes into play, as well. Basing your decision on one undeniable - but not as of yet quantified in any meaningful way - improvement is not necessarily smart.

Another interesting question - to me, anyway - is how much, if any at all, of the improvement we see is due to smart algorithm. Theoretically, it would be possible for the station to have preset data tables for a given tip and given temperatures, or even better some kind of pure algorithm if possible, that would allow it to calculate and correct for the expected temperature drop given the past history of sensor readings and power output down the the last fraction of a millisecond. If this is in effect, I wonder if it ever goes wrong.  The usual PID problem is of having a fixed thermal mass and correcting for overshoot. This is a bit of a different pickle.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 08:03:31 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2018, 08:54:53 pm »
This explains why RF is always going to demolish nichrome heating in the really skinny pointy tips. No temperature gradient has to be suffered between the tip and the heater.

Some views of the two internally:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/metcal-sttc-soldering-cartridgetip-teardown/
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=2457&start=675

I like your idea for a temperature test.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2018, 06:10:20 am »
I doubt that the heating is even throughout the tip. Plus when you're soldering, heat is escaping out one end. There will definitely be gradients.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: EEVblog #1065 - Soldering Iron Power Delivery Explained
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2018, 01:13:12 am »
Quote
I like your idea for a temperature test.
I don't have a JBC. But I did this test on an 888 and a T12 Bakon.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/t12-clone-vs-888-practical-test-results/
 
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