Author Topic: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report  (Read 7093 times)

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Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2018, 06:10:27 am »
There's a difference between that Audi system and the Uber one:

The Audi, the system has been designed with a safety rated SIL3 or SIL4 system. Each line of code is reviewed, the overall system design is approved by a certification agency, and the development process is approved, fault injection tests and qualification is done in an extensive way.

The uber system has none of that. it's an experimental thing that cannot be sold. Never. Uber does not have the structure and finances to make their autonomous driving safe, with a SIL rating.
 
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Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2018, 07:39:34 am »
Starting on Page 8 are electronic diagrams on a car's electronic systems. 

Found by searching on SIL which I believe should be ASIL or A-SIL

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-Automotive_Application_Guide-ABR-v00_00-EN.pdf?fileId=db3a30431c48a312011c6696b47402cc
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2018, 05:06:57 pm »
At the end of the day, Uber and whoever else that was involved in developing the autonomous driving system, should have let Volvo do what Volvo do best, safety. Leave the emergency features enabled. Volvo cars' systems only intervene at the last possible moment to prevent a collision, they are very good. They will warn you well before hand but not take control of braking until it's absolutely necessary.

Surely at some point during a meeting, someone would have raised some kind of concern when the issue of disabling Volvo's features was brought up.

Also, the human driver needed to be paying attention, he failed at the one job he was there to do.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2018, 05:29:35 pm »
Surely at some point during a meeting, someone would have raised some kind of concern when the issue of disabling Volvo's features was brought up.

I don't doubt someone did - but I believe they may have had a conflict between allowing the Volvo system to control the brakes for emergency situations - and Uber's system for normal braking when driving around.  Both these systems would need to be active at the same time.

My bet is that there could have been some element of each system's function that made this problematic and the engineers said they would need time to integrate the two ... but the powers that be ordered a time oriented solution rather than a safety oriented one.
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2018, 09:13:55 pm »
As i said a few pages back, Without the OEM supporting the project the "entry point" to the mechatronics must be the same point as used by the OE system, and therefore the OE system must be disabled before the Uber one can work!

For example, take the trajectory control, it must feed a command to the power steering rack, and so unless Uber have reverse engineered that rack and it's controller or replaced it with their own,  either of which would be highly unlikely given the time/cost to do so, then they must be simply replacing the OE signals with their own versions (probably on the Flexray bus).  That means you cannot have both systems operational without a clash!
 

Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2018, 07:14:41 am »
Well, as per prelm NTSB report UBER is at fault, lets sue.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 07:16:15 am by MT »
 

Offline dtweed

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2018, 09:10:53 am »
Your braking performance calculation is based on a false premise.

The question is not

 "How fast will the car be going 1.2 seconds after applying the brakes?"

but rather

 "How fast will the car be going when it reaches the pedestrian?"

It turns out that if you do the calculation using your numbers (initial speed = 19.2 m/s, acceleration = -7.55 m/s^2, distance = 25 m), the car never reaches the pedestrian at all! It actually comes to a stop in about 24.4 meters, giving the pedestrian a good scare, but not making contact.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:24:34 am by dtweed »
 

Offline EEngo

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2018, 10:31:21 pm »
With these figures you have to keep in mind that the result is very much depending on small time variations. If you include a time for the brake system to apply full brake power of typ 0.1 to 0.2 seconds (as already shown before), a decelleration of -7.55 m/s^2 would not avoid the impact. In accident reconstruction these relations are shown in distance-time-graphs as you can see in the attached figure.
At those speeds 0.1 seconds, resp. 2 meters can change the result.

But of course, a prompt braking action of the autonomous car system would have reduced the impact velocity very significantly! (in this case and with -7.55 m/s^2, to approx. 15 km/h, see graph)

And yes, with good conditions higher decelleration rates are possible, but in real driving situations you would stick below 1g. For the case discussed here, you would have to perform braking tests at the accident scene.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2018, 07:21:45 pm »
Just been reading about a Dutch report on AEB systems (automatic emergency braking)  which are mandatory on Dutch trucks. It seems that some the systems cannot see the back of another truck but do see a small post with a reflector on it. One of the comments was the programmers of the systems are focusing too much on object classification rather than object detection, in other words it does not matter if the object in front is a person or a tree or a truck it does not matter if it is not in the data base just stop.   
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2018, 03:29:47 am »
You don't want a truck doing a full emergency stop if it sees a plastic shopping bag blowing across the highway though, or a pothole, shadow, painted marking, wet patch, etc. That could easily cause a serious accident rather than prevent one.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2018, 07:20:36 am »
These trucks were not stopping for a stationary tanker in the tests as they had not been programmed into the data base.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2018, 08:14:36 am »
Utter nonsense. You have to be prepared for the driver in front of you braking for apparantly no good reason at all times.

A good reason -> new car  (that is what the person who stopped in front of me got -  no reason and no witnesses )  They said a bicycle (there were none).  The could have hallucinated and it was still my fault.  I just turned my head to check cross traffic (none).  I totaled their 94 BMW and I am still driving my dented 2000 Tacoma.  My guess I was doing 20 mph.

I don't think so. There's a simple rule: if you can't come to a complete stop without hitting the car in front of you if it stops/slows suddenly then YOU are too close. I can't think of an exception. Of course, good luck trying to maintain a safe distance without someone filling that space on a multilane road.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2018, 01:24:45 pm »
These trucks were not stopping for a stationary tanker in the tests as they had not been programmed into the data base.

That's obviously an issue, however it supports my view that these sort of assist features should be considered secondary safety features, something that will kick in if the driver fails to act but not something meant to allow the driver to not pay attention. Thus they should err on the side of not slamming on the brakes rather than doing so when not necessary.
 

Online Rerouter

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2018, 02:10:55 pm »
There have been a few times where I have had management, both my company and the client ask me to do something that I see as likely to result in harm to someone.

E.g. I was asked to fit an immobilizer system to a boom lift, with the specification "no hydraulic operation should be possible in this state, neither raise or lower, from basket controls or ground until overridden with a senior management key"

Now for clarity, every boom lift under the sun allows you to go down after something goes wrong, for the basket its with the E-stop pulled back out, and from the ground its with the control switch changed,

Can anyone see an issue with preventing someone in a basket getting down? So had to go through management that we cannot meet that requirement.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2018, 03:58:57 pm »
..."no hydraulic operation should be possible in this state, neither raise or lower, from basket controls or ground until overridden with a senior management key"

Can anyone see an issue with preventing someone in a basket getting down?

What if they do something idiotic/expensive and you want to keep them up there on display until the boss arrives?  :popcorn:

(I guess you could have another "foreman" key for that).
 

Online Zero999

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2018, 10:49:24 pm »
Utter nonsense. You have to be prepared for the driver in front of you braking for apparantly no good reason at all times.

A good reason -> new car  (that is what the person who stopped in front of me got -  no reason and no witnesses )  They said a bicycle (there were none).  The could have hallucinated and it was still my fault.  I just turned my head to check cross traffic (none).  I totaled their 94 BMW and I am still driving my dented 2000 Tacoma.  My guess I was doing 20 mph.

I don't think so. There's a simple rule: if you can't come to a complete stop without hitting the car in front of you if it stops/slows suddenly then YOU are too close. I can't think of an exception. Of course, good luck trying to maintain a safe distance without someone filling that space on a multilane road.
In theory you're right, however in practise, as you've stated in your last sentence, it's not always practical. Suppose someone overtakes you, then slams their brakes on in front of you? Without witnesses, there's nothing you can do. There was a spate of insurance scams where people would deliberately cause accidents, by suddenly breaking, getting the car behind to crash into them. I'm pretty sure the perpetrators got caught eventually.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2018, 02:32:31 am »
That is what dash cams are for.


https://youtu.be/SeIPZ5f9nX4

 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2018, 04:29:05 am »
That is what dash cams are for.


https://youtu.be/SeIPZ5f9nX4

She made the mistake of telling them she had a dash cam.  After my staged accident, I got a dash cam (a Canon A810 camera).  If I have another accident I will not disclose it to the other person.  I will want the police to see it after their statement.

Had I had one, it would have made no difference.  They could have said they saw a pink flying saucer but would have made me feel better.  In other words someone can slam on their brakes for no reason and if you hit them, it is your fault.  A dash cam might discourage them from doing it again.


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Offline Smokey

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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2018, 04:48:20 am »
Yes they can slam on their brakes and if you hit them it's your fault, that is a very basic concept that you should understand. I get that it's an issue with multi-lane roads where someone will often move in to fill that space but it doesn't sound like it's the problem here. It is 100% *your* responsibility to maintain a safe following distance. Doesn't matter why they slammed on their brakes, you weren't looking where you were going, you hit them, it was your fault, end of story.

 

Offline ez24

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2018, 04:51:14 am »
... it was your fault, end of story.

Not yet, I am still paying for it  :-DD
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2018, 04:52:11 am »
She made the mistake of telling them she had a dash cam.  After my staged accident, I got a dash cam (a Canon A810 camera).  If I have another accident I will not disclose it to the other person.  I will want the police to see it after their statement.

Yep. Make sure their names and addresses are on a police file before releasing your video.

Insurance fraud is a serious offense in most places.

Also: It will be seriously funny to see their faces.
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2018, 04:52:42 am »
Utter nonsense. You have to be prepared for the driver in front of you braking for apparantly no good reason at all times.

A good reason -> new car  (that is what the person who stopped in front of me got -  no reason and no witnesses )  They said a bicycle (there were none).  The could have hallucinated and it was still my fault.  I just turned my head to check cross traffic (none).  I totaled their 94 BMW and I am still driving my dented 2000 Tacoma.  My guess I was doing 20 mph.

I don't think so. There's a simple rule: if you can't come to a complete stop without hitting the car in front of you if it stops/slows suddenly then YOU are too close. I can't think of an exception. Of course, good luck trying to maintain a safe distance without someone filling that space on a multilane road.
In theory you're right, however in practise, as you've stated in your last sentence, it's not always practical. Suppose someone overtakes you, then slams their brakes on in front of you? Without witnesses, there's nothing you can do. There was a spate of insurance scams where people would deliberately cause accidents, by suddenly breaking, getting the car behind to crash into them. I'm pretty sure the perpetrators got caught eventually.


I completely agree.
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline Fungus

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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1088 - Uber Autonomous Car Accident Report
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2018, 09:45:46 am »
Yes they can slam on their brakes and if you hit them it's your fault, that is a very basic concept that you should understand. I get that it's an issue with multi-lane roads where someone will often move in to fill that space but it doesn't sound like it's the problem here. It is 100% *your* responsibility to maintain a safe following distance. Doesn't matter why they slammed on their brakes, you weren't looking where you were going, you hit them, it was your fault, end of story.

I once had someone sharply cut in front of me, I had no way out and hit their vehicle around the rear door.  The driver was of the opinion that it was my fault and that I should have stopped in the 50cm he allowed me for the purpose.  In the end, it was concluded that he drove into my path and caused the accident, and had to bear 100% of the costs.   My insurance company had a very good lawyer on the case, he argued that the place of impact supported my version and that the other party's explanation of me hitting him from behind in that location was not credible.  Win!
 
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