Author Topic: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)  (Read 15752 times)

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Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2018, 02:30:53 pm »
This just in: Certain countries and areas have obnoxious pricing problems. Dave isn't responsible for this. Do your own research, his video is just a small part of your research.
Who is talking about responsibility?
That's irrelevant

You have to agree with the fact that if a product isn't worth buying (or a lot of hassle) in a significant part of the world (for the most of your readers/viewers obviously) it also changes the final verdict of the product.
Or it deserves a side note at least
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2018, 02:40:04 pm »
You have to agree with the fact that if a product isn't worth buying (or a lot of hassle) in a significant part of the world (for the most of your readers/viewers obviously) it also changes the final verdict of the product.
Or it deserves a side note at least

So, what you are saying is that Dave needs to do a global pricing assessment and include that in product reviews?

Do you realise how impractical that would be?
 
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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2018, 02:44:58 pm »
So in the end the conclusion if "it's a killer or not" is also entirely different.

No, it's not.
The only reason I compared two different priced units is because
1) It provides a benchmark (it's the only direct heat iron I have)
and
2) There is a massive thread on the forum asking if this is a "JBC killer" or not.

The answer is (IMO and hence that's all that matters for my videos) is that regardless of price, it's not a JBC killer. "JBC killer" implies similar or better performance, and it clearly doesn't have it. It's simply a cheaper direct heat iron, and like I said in the video, it's better to compare to a similarly priced iron (which I don't have). So basically the comparison ends there, there is no point me going into pricing in different regions for the two units and try and provide some region based "bang-per-buck".
You might have wanted that, and that's fine, but that's not the video I was making.

Now, if I did one with two similar priced units, I'd likely go into detail on region pricing. I just didn't see the point in this video.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2018, 02:45:32 pm »
You have to agree with the fact that if a product isn't worth buying (or a lot of hassle) in a significant part of the world (for the most of your readers/viewers obviously) it also changes the final verdict of the product.
Or it deserves a side note at least

So, what you are saying is that Dave needs to do a global pricing assessment and include that in product reviews?

Do you realise how impractical that would be?
I think it was pretty obvious what I meant, and that doesn't include "a whole global pricing assessment" ?

So in the end the conclusion if "it's a killer or not" is also entirely different.

No, it's not.
The only reason I compared two different priced units is because
1) It provides a benchmark (it's the only direct heat iron I have)
and
2) There is a massive thread on the forum asking if this is a "JBC killer" or not.

The answer is (IMO and hence that's all that matters for my videos) is that regardless of price, it's not a JBC killer. "JBC killer" implies similar or better performance, and it clearly doesn't have it. It's simply a cheaper direct heat iron, and like I said in the video, it's better to compare to a similarly priced iron (which I don't have). So basically the comparison ends there, there is no point me going into pricing in different regions for the two units and try and provide some region based "bang-per-buck".
You might have wanted that, and that's fine, but that's not the video I was making.

Now, if I did one with two similar priced units, I'd likely go into detail on region pricing. I just didn't see the point in this video.
More than fair enough.
I just don't really think that came across in the video, because than you wouldn't even mention the price but only focus purely on the quality.
The subject would be more like, "which one is the best when price isn't an issue" or something like that.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 02:50:20 pm by b_force »
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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2018, 02:56:29 pm »
Dave specifically mentioned a low cost iron in competition with JBC. Now my opinion is that as an Australia it is total Bullshit. end of story.

I don't disagree. You could have said that without attacking me.

Quote
Dave gets all this free gear hoarding it for the himself and people like myself who marries a Disabled person before sweeping law make it impossible for us to ever earn enough to buy such stuff, and tell the audience including Australian it is cheap.

I did not tell Australians that it was cheap, I did not mention Australian pricing at all, you are the one that implied that. The $US pricing is in the video title, very clearly. I said it before and I'll say it again, you could have read that and spent a minute checking yourself before watching a 40 minute video and then getting all upset about that I didn't mention the local price.

Quote
Yes I hold a grudge

That is obvious.

Quote
So simply this is my Australian Response and irrespective I call it out as Bullshit, expensive. For Dave and his majority market, well it is cheap.

What's stopping you direct importing it if you are unhappy with local pricing? (a very well known problem in our industry here, as I'm sure you are well aware)
It's AUD$406 (USD$297.81) from Tequipment delivered to Australia.
Are you happy I now did the legwork for you?
 
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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2018, 02:59:48 pm »
More than fair enough.
I just don't really think that came across in the video, because than you wouldn't even mention the price but only focus purely on the quality.

I mentioned the price several times. Again, I stuck to US prices because I would have had to research and then explain price comparisons and hence "bang per buck" in various regions. I didn't want to do this, as I deemed it wasn't necessary and was not the intent of the video.
 
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2018, 03:02:15 pm »
I enjoyed the video regardless and have no idea as to why so many people went birko over it, just silly stuff which doesn't benefit anybody.

It appears to be a very nice soldering station but I wouldn't touch it for the same reason I wouldn't touch a Hakko, they went to town with the electronics for temperature stability and consistency and then ended up with a crappy user interface, give it a month and you will need the book again to change one setting, no thanks.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2018, 03:06:34 pm »
Dave gets all this free gear hoarding it for the himself

And there's the crux of the issue: You're jealous and angry that he gets given review samples and you don't.
 
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Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2018, 03:15:54 pm »
Dave gets all this free gear hoarding it for the himself

And there's the crux of the issue: You're jealous and angry that he gets given review samples and you don't.
That's being a bit judgemental, don't you think?

In fact, years ago I even "de-cluttered" and cleaned up/sold most of the stuff except the things I really need and use.
Hoarding and being surrounded by all the gear like we can see in the videos would make me very restless.
More isn't always better for some people.
To be clear, I am NOT saying that it's bad to collect stuff. I am saying that it doesn't automatically means that people are "jealous".

Anyway, offtopic
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 03:17:38 pm by b_force »
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Offline helius

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2018, 03:47:21 pm »
When pushing the tip in a wet sponge it's surface temperature will in theory drop to 100°C: the temperature of boiling water. While it looks impressive that the temperature shown stays at 350, this actually proves that the temperature doesn't reflect the temperature of the business end very well.

IIRC The JBC dropped quite a lot more (to below 200) when you tested it a while ago. So it seems like JBC measures temperature at the front of the tip, and Pace more to the back.
Several previous Pace stations have a setting with the express purpose of not changing the display when the temperature changes! See the section "Temperature Display Impedance (TDI) Mode" in the ST45 manual: https://uk.rs-online.com/webdocs/0032/0900766b800323e3.pdf
On the ST45 it can be disabled, but this setting does not appear on the ADS200, which makes me suspicious.
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2018, 04:47:26 pm »
Seems like maybe turning the heatsink fins around so they are not poking into the cap might help it last a bit longer maybe.  Can't you just unscrew the heatsink from the  TO, and turn it around?
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2018, 05:09:36 pm »
When pushing the tip in a wet sponge it's surface temperature will in theory drop to 100°C: the temperature of boiling water. While it looks impressive that the temperature shown stays at 350, this actually proves that the temperature doesn't reflect the temperature of the business end very well.

IIRC The JBC dropped quite a lot more (to below 200) when you tested it a while ago. So it seems like JBC measures temperature at the front of the tip, and Pace more to the back.
Several previous Pace stations have a setting with the express purpose of not changing the display when the temperature changes! See the section "Temperature Display Impedance (TDI) Mode" in the ST45 manual: https://uk.rs-online.com/webdocs/0032/0900766b800323e3.pdf
On the ST45 it can be disabled, but this setting does not appear on the ADS200, which makes me suspicious.
Makes sense, that would also explain why the reading suddenly stops jumping around like crazy once it reaches the set temperature.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2018, 05:21:50 pm »
Love the heavy metal construction of this unit, including the stand.  It just oozes quality compared to the others.  I like how fast you can change the tips on these cartridge type stations, compared to waiting for the "old tech" to cool off to the point where you can actually touch it.  I have two irons for this reason alone (having two tip sizes "hot" is useful where the pads vary in size).

The lower cost of ownership in the long run is important; it frees up money to buy more electronic stuff, after all.

The firmware "bugs/features" look reasonably easy to fix, hopefully Pace is all over that already.  These days, the "way the software looks" is just as important as the quality of the metals and plastics chosen for the rest of the product.    It is important that the user feels "reassured" while using the product - the display should be telling the user what he expects to see...  not jump all over the place and make him feel as if the product is barely controllable.  Even very cheap Hakko clones with digital display (e.g. Aoyue 937D) have firmware that the user feels "reassured" by while using it, because it responds in a predictable way.  There is definitely a trick to getting the feeling just right...

Is there anything to stop Pace from releasing a "super high performance tip" made of thinner iron and having the sensor further out in the tip, for those that like to pump a lot of heat into ground planes without raising the temperature?



 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2018, 05:28:03 pm »
Love the heavy metal construction of this unit, including the stand.  It just oozes quality compared to the others.
It's so funny and interesting how personal taste can differ.
I had the complete opposite feeling when I saw it.
Bodged together with of the shelve parts.
Even the electronics don't look in-house developed.
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2018, 09:17:50 pm »
Hi there! I’d like to clarify several points in this thread, some of which I’ve already mentioned on the other EEVBlog “JBC Killer” thread started by Cliff Matthews. We are taking every comment posted on the EEVBlog very seriously. Our engineers have reviewed the various comments and are looking at ways we can enhance your user experience:

PACE’s Take on Dave’s Review: Some at PACE were irritated by some of Dave’s comments and procedures during the first video, but most agree that the second revision was objective, fair and balanced, despite the fact that it is not complementary in many places. We agree with him on many points, both positive and negative. It’s been a tremendous feedback experience which will ultimately benefit the end-user!

ADS200 vs JBC: Comparing the ADS200 to the JBC is like comparing a Prius to a Lexus …. But, as Dave has explained multiple times, we understand there was a massive thread on the forum asking if this is a "JBC killer" or not. For the record, PACE’s goal was not to create a “JBC-Killer” which is a premium soldering station at a premium price for both station and tips. It was to design a powerful production soldering station with a wide variety of inexpensive tips that could withstand the rigors of multi-shift production, yet be inexpensive enough to sell to technicians and engineers who simply cannot afford a premium Metcal or JBC. I think we have succeeded spectacularly, if customer feedback is any indication.

ADS200 Display: We agree that there is no reason for the wacky screen anomalies and overshoot flashes when the tip initially heats up. Also, I’ve always felt the flashing of the display/LED during SetBack was really intrusive, but no customer ever directly complained about it on our previous stations! But now we’re in the age of social media, this type of feedback flows freely, and we get it! I believe these things can be resolved via firmware update, but give us some time to get it together.

Look of the Aluminium (we spell it "Aluminum"): We have been using these custom (not off the shelf) aluminum chassis extrusions since the 90’s. Yeah, old school. Some people think it’s great, some sexy (Dave does!!!) and others think it is ugly and antiquated (I tend to lean towards the last one). But creating a modern and sexy new case would have added at least 3-4 months for tooling, required us to redesign the pcb and a host of other issues. In the end, time-to-market concerns and the fact that the ulta-sturdy case is practically invulnerable to burns, 3 foot drops onto a cement floor and other customer abuse, led us to stay with the proven and rugged old-school extrusions.

High $542 price in Australia: Distributor mark-ups are very complicated, especially in Australia and other foreign countries. Mektronics sells the standard ADS200 for $542 Australian dollars which is equivalent to about US$397. Mektronics must ship from US to Australia, an extremely expensive endeavor probably costing thousands. Using the cheapest UPS shipping setting on our website will cost you US$250 for one ADS unit! Plus, add on duty, taxes, Customs etc and voila’! After all is said and done, it wouldn't surprise me if Mektronics made only 20-25% margin on that $542 price. I really don't see it as price gouging. Note that JBC products may not be as expensive to ship since JBC manufactures & ships out of Spain. It’s also possible that Mektronics is getting a special deal or much better discount pricing from JBC. By the way, in Brazil the mark-up is almost 3 times the list price in the US because of taxes and duties!

“Crappy” User Interface?: I don’t agree. Yes, the display is old-school and basic, but we’re going for utter simplicity here. Just push the Red “UP” button to raise the temp, or Blue “Down” button to decrease the temp. Or use the pre-sets. Try to change the temperature with an FX-951 like that and you’ll get a cryptic set of codes that require you to consult the manual (Rossmann describes it as an "80's alarm clock interface"). The ADS200 unit has much more capability built in if you wish to delve into the set-up mode. But our goal was for a customer to open the box, plug in all in, and be up and running, without a manual, within 2 minutes. Done!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 09:38:07 pm by PACE-Worldwide »
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2018, 09:54:56 pm »
@PACE
There is nothing wrong with the enclosure. It will not crack, will not yellow with time, will not melt if you drop a hot iron or hot air pencil on it, it is great. :-+
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Offline Fsck

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2018, 10:13:46 pm »
Looks like a pretty decent station, but it's nearly 400$ CAD for the kit with the setback stand. That's similar in price to a Hakko FX951 here.
I like the enclosure as well, but I think it might be a bit hard to clean. (yes, I like clean gear).
I really dislike the display menu, Doubling the resolution of the display to make it easier to access the menus would've been nice from my point of view.

For the record, I use a metcal stss that I got used off of ebay. The set of tips cost me more than the unit did.

Thicker iron plating is definitely a good thing, never change! JBC tips have abysmal life.
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Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2018, 10:20:51 pm »
Look of the Aluminium (we spell it "Aluminum"): We have been using these custom (not off the shelf) aluminum chassis extrusions since the 90’s. Yeah, old school. Some people think it’s great, some sexy (Dave does!!!) and others think it is ugly and antiquated (I tend to lean towards the last one). But creating a modern and sexy new case would have added at least 3-4 months for tooling, required us to redesign the pcb and a host of other issues. In the end, time-to-market concerns and the fact that the ulta-sturdy case is practically invulnerable to burns, 3 foot drops onto a cement floor and other customer abuse, led us to stay with the proven and rugged old-school extrusions.
Interesting, I have worked for several companies using exactly the same basic aluminium chassis.
Also I have seen it around quite a bit by others.
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Offline Shock

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2018, 10:28:57 pm »
Yep I agree don't change the box, everyone that knows Pace products is aware they are built like tanks. Check out this photo of an old station with battle scars. The new Pace ADS 200 has some serious curb bench appeal.

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Online Halcyon

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2018, 10:37:11 pm »
Dave, Personally you really fucked up this review, low cost for bloody Australian, For Retardistan yes, Not Shitsville. Next time look at Australia before fuxking up the cost of these unit. PACE fucked up have to log on for the price. Piss Poor review

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Offline ThunderSqueak

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2018, 11:09:59 pm »

ADS200 Display: We agree that there is no reason for the wacky screen anomalies and overshoot flashes when the tip initially heats up. Also, I’ve always felt the flashing of the display/LED during SetBack was really intrusive, but no customer ever directly complained about it on our previous stations! But now we’re in the age of social media, this type of feedback flows freely, and we get it! I believe these things can be resolved via firmware update, but give us some time to get it together.


Figured I would pass it along here, if anyone cares :)

I was discussing firmware in the EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?) youtube comments, as I  noted the chip is in a socket.  Pace just responded to the discussion with this:

========================================

PACE Worldwide-AC
5 hours ago
We send out updated firmware (a 44-Pin PLCC, yep, we're old school) along with a chip puller to anyone requesting it. The latest firmware update is 1.2. It's impossible for us to provide to every customer since we sell 99.8% of our product through authorized distributors, who are very unlikely to send us their customer lists. If you need the the latest 1.2 update, go to PACE's website at www.paceworldwide.com/contact-us and fill out the form.
========================================



How to check the firmware version:
======================
The following instructions should be performed to familiarize the operator with the
system.
1. Place Power Switch in the “OFF” (“0”) position.
2. Press and hold the Program Key ( ) while turning the Power Switch on (“I”
position). Release all keys when the software version is displayed.
======================
My iron returns 1-2, so version 1.2 firmware.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 11:19:32 pm by ThunderSqueak »
Currently working with non-binary computing, no reason for it... just doing because I can ^^
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2018, 11:22:38 pm »
It's so funny and interesting how personal taste can differ.
I had the complete opposite feeling when I saw it.
Bodged together with of the shelve parts.
Even the electronics don't look in-house developed.

Hmmm, you made me think about what actually makes a product "ooze of quality" for me.

Two things in this case:

1) I was impressed by the cast aluminium fascia, and the cast aluminium part of the stand where you insert the iron...  presumably, the rest of the stand is a casting as well. These all had to be a custom design (even if re-used from other models, for economies of scale).   The only "off the shelf" part might be the extruded piece in the middle, but what benefit would accrue from making your own extruded profiles?  That would be like turning your own screws, bolts, and nuts on a lathe rather than buying them off the shelf...   The engineering design decisions look sound enough to me. 

How often do you see cast metal parts of any kind on a modern product, in this age of minimalism and plastics?  The product stands out for the use of cast metal parts before you even turn it on!

2) Simple user interface.  I feel no need to adjust the PID algorithms, or compensate for air humidity, or anything else...  I want the tip to achieve the set temperature, and stay there...  with a minimum of fuss, other than some indication when energy is being sent to the element (and when the tip is at its setpoint temp), so you have a chance to intuit if something is wrong.  I usually "sense" when a tip is beginning to get a bad sensor or a bad heating element - the pattern no longer looks normal as the station has to jump through hoops to make the tip cooperate.  The station has to "talk" discreetly in use for this reason.

My preference is for a single big twisty knob to set the temperature.  Nothing is as fast as that.  A rotary encoder with a big aluminum knob...  (suggestion for the Pace guys!)   However, the up/down buttons are of course acceptable, since there are pre-sets that serve most of the purpose that the twisty knob would (arguably, not as intuitive though).


 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2018, 11:24:14 pm »
Interesting, I have worked for several companies using exactly the same basic aluminium chassis.
Also I have seen it around quite a bit by others.

We've using it since at least the early 90's, so it's not uncommon. They're custom extrusions, lead times are extremely long (we have to order at least 6 months in advance) and we have to buy this material in long sheets that is then cut to size, then anodized. The extrusions end up costing more than a custom stylized metal case would. It was estimated that we could have saved about $7 per ADS if we would have switched to a more conventional sheet metal case. But then the customer would have had to wait another year and the resultant case would not be as ruggedized. As Shock said, the extrusion makes it like a tank! 
 
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Offline PACE-Worldwide

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2018, 11:35:16 pm »

My preference is for a single big twisty knob to set the temperature.  Nothing is as fast as that.  A rotary encoder with a big aluminum knob...  (suggestion for the Pace guys!)   However, the up/down buttons are of course acceptable, since there are pre-sets that serve most of the purpose that the twisty knob would (arguably, not as intuitive though).

We've sold several soldering stations with knobs and the problem is ... they don't sell! I like them a lot too. We only have 2 legacy soldering stations that we sell with a control knob, called the ST-25, and that one is only there because the US Military buy a couple hundred a year. The other pone is called the ST 30, and that one will be discontinued soon ... due to lack of sales. Everyone seems to want digital!

Aaron
 

Offline ThunderSqueak

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Re: EEVblog #1106 - Pace ADS200 Soldering Station Review (JBC Killer?)
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2018, 11:44:14 pm »

Look of the Aluminium (we spell it "Aluminum"): We have been using these custom (not off the shelf) aluminum chassis extrusions since the 90’s. Yeah, old school. Some people think it’s great, some sexy (Dave does!!!) and others think it is ugly and antiquated (I tend to lean towards the last one). But creating a modern and sexy new case would have added at least 3-4 months for tooling, required us to redesign the pcb and a host of other issues. In the end, time-to-market concerns and the fact that the ulta-sturdy case is practically invulnerable to burns, 3 foot drops onto a cement floor and other customer abuse, led us to stay with the proven and rugged old-school extrusions.

“Crappy” User Interface?: I don’t agree. Yes, the display is old-school and basic, but we’re going for utter simplicity here. Just push the Red “UP” button to raise the temp, or Blue “Down” button to decrease the temp. Or use the pre-sets. Try to change the temperature with an FX-951 like that and you’ll get a cryptic set of codes that require you to consult the manual (Rossmann describes it as an "80's alarm clock interface"). The ADS200 unit has much more capability built in if you wish to delve into the set-up mode. But our goal was for a customer to open the box, plug in all in, and be up and running, without a manual, within 2 minutes. Done!

I love the metal enclosure, unlike my hakko, I can set things on top of this one such as another iron.  This helps keep more bench space to do actual work.  Thanks you :)

As for the interface, this is one of the reasons I purchased this iron (as well as the price of the tips, and short tip to grip distance).  I just wanted something simple that works. At fist glance at the manual, without really reading it (just looking at the pictures... before delving in) those codes look semi complicated but after actually reading seem useful enough.  I probably will never use most of those settings, leaving them at default but I am happy the option is there should I choose. 

One other thing, I am loving the new hand piece design.  I was an electronics repair tech for 20 years and the last PACE I tried to use consisted of that black plastic that would get extremely hot and is the reason I chose not to buy a pace iron years ago and instead went with weller, and later a hakko.  I am glad you chose to use it on this iron.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 12:03:36 am by ThunderSqueak »
Currently working with non-binary computing, no reason for it... just doing because I can ^^
 
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