Author Topic: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!  (Read 2926 times)

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Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2019, 01:37:22 am »
Cold fusion is a good intersection of pseudo-science and hope. Patents not being granted, funding cut off, people are still keeping a myth going.
All you need is a thermocouple channel to read a few degrees higher than the others. Strange... the results can never be reproduced. It must be all the negative energy from disbelievers 8) They could try using an IR thermal camera...

“I see that this method of obtaining energy is promising, it is real and humanity needs it. Humanity needs to tame the energy of the Sun on Earth. This is cold fusion.” https://coldfusionnow.org/blog
Framing the dynamics of the Mizuno breakthrough

Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics, what they are saying and the fact they have not been disproven despite decades of false claims.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2019, 10:16:02 am »
Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics,

Wrong.

Free energy people question whether they're really laws or not. Quoting "laws" at them will achieve nothing.
 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2019, 12:12:15 pm »
Heck, even Dave got it, how can we trust Dave is not part of that secret evil organization ?


 :-DD :-DD :-DD

To paraphrase a certain late sicilian who met his demise in a battle of wits, Dave is Australian, and we all know Australians are not to be trusted.
Any circuit design must contain at least one part which is obsolete, two parts which are unobtainable, and three parts which are still under development.

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Offline Psi

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2019, 12:37:59 pm »
I think there is plenty of blame to go around.

Free energy nuts going on and on about things they just don't know anything about.
And
Scientists who don't understand that they are in a position of authority and should not be saying things like "that's impossible".  In fact I can't think of two works more unscientific than  "That's impossible"
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2019, 01:26:22 pm »
Scientists who don't understand that they are in a position of authority and should not be saying things like "that's impossible".  In fact I can't think of two works more unscientific than  "That's impossible"

Some things do warrant that wording though. Although you could argue there is always a better way to word it.
If scientists and engineers had to start every response with "Well, it's not impossible, but..." you'd be whacking moles forever.
They say it's good to be open minded, but not so open your brains fall out.
Well, you could say it's good to be accommodating to ideas, but no so accommodating that you embarrass the profession. 
Sometimes it's best to simply ridicule an idea and call it impossible or whatever.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2019, 02:46:49 pm »
Well, you could say it's good to be accommodating to ideas, but no so accommodating that you embarrass the profession. 
Sometimes it's best to simply ridicule an idea and call it impossible or whatever.
Unfortunately that is an extremely large grey area. In my opinion it is better to look if several big companies/universities are seriously funding / working on a similar project to see if a certain kind of new technology has merit or not. The words from a single individual (=opinion)  are usually worth next to nothing. In science usually to most adopted theory is marked as 'truth'.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 03:06:15 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2019, 04:00:34 pm »
Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics,

Wrong.

Free energy people question whether they're really laws or not. Quoting "laws" at them will achieve nothing.

It's fine to question the laws, in fact I would encourage doing so. If you claim to have found a way around one of these laws though I expect an extraordinary amount of evidence to back that claim. It needs to be thoroughly studied and the results independently duplicated by someone else, otherwise I'm calling it a scam.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2019, 04:01:20 pm »
Well, you could say it's good to be accommodating to ideas, but no so accommodating that you embarrass the profession. 
Sometimes it's best to simply ridicule an idea and call it impossible or whatever.
Unfortunately that is an extremely large grey area. In my opinion it is better to look if several big companies/universities are seriously funding / working on a similar project to see if a certain kind of new technology has merit or not.

Nah. There's plenty of idiots in academia and defense research, too.

Last week's BBC Horizon program ("Project Greenglow") was about funded research into anti-gravity devices. Plenty of quackery there and plenty of people trying to reproduce claimed results based on bad science.

nb. I'm very disappointed in the BBC for broadcasting that program without any sort of debunking or common sense applied. The entire program was based on the premise that gravity is a force and we can make a "gravity shield" when it's been known for 100 years that gravity isn't a force at all, it's a curve in spacetime.

 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2019, 04:07:14 pm »
It's fine to question the laws, in fact I would encourage doing so.

I wouldn't, especially not when it's a case of "A little knowledge..."

To even start to question a law you need very clear evidence that the old one is wrong.

PS: I don't personally expect any radical changes in the laws of physics now. The existing ones simply work too well for them to be completely broken.

The only missing piece at the moment seems to be what we refer to as "dark matter", whatever that turns out to be.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2019, 05:39:36 pm »
PS: I don't personally expect any radical changes in the laws of physics now. The existing ones simply work too well for them to be completely broken.
About that... A while ago I watched a documentary about the quantum computer they are building in the Netherlands (unfortunately they didn't make any attempt to explain how it works). The most interesting quote from the documentary was that quantum physics is so strange because our world is strange; not quantum physics.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rhodges

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 07:12:02 pm »
... when it's been known for 100 years that gravity isn't a force at all, it's a curve in spacetime.
Maybe if we build a very large steam iron, we could flatten that curve?
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Online coppercone2

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WARNING FROM AZEROTH
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2019, 02:11:32 am »
YOUR POWER GENERATION MACHINES ARE CAUSING DISTURBANCES IN THE WEATHER PATTERNS ON AZEROTH. CEASE YOUR ELECTROMAGNETIC BURGLARY AT ONCE OR FACE INVASION!!!!
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2019, 02:29:38 am »
it also seems that you can make some kind of really nasty thermal weapon with overunity, kind of like get robots to build heaters that are powered by nothing. it would be simple
 

Offline borjam

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2019, 06:28:54 am »
The problem here is mostly miscommunication.
When a scientist says "free energy is impossible/BS" they often don't also include "within our current understanding"  because to them this is obvious and doesn't need saying. 

The miscommunication happens when people hear it and think the scientist is stating "Free energy is impossible" as a fact in perpetuity .
This gets under peoples skin as it comes across as very arrogant when that was not the intention.

It is made worse by a small number of scientists who 'do' actually state as fact in perpetuity that "free energy is fake/impossible".
To me if a scientist does this then they are not really a true scientist

It depends. I claim that some day we will be able to fly by moving our ears, like wings. Do you think we can't right now because we lack enough knowledge?
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2019, 06:31:34 am »
Dave, there is FREE energy. I can prove it: A bloke I once worked with lived in a house on street that shared on a municipal boundary in Melbourne, where on one side of the road, residents had never received an electricity power bill. They contacted the electricity company X who said it wasn't in their jurisdiction but to contact electricity company Y. Company Y said the same thing about X. Last time I saw him, he and his neighbours had received about six years worth of FREE energy ::). I heard that if the problem is finally sorted out, the residents are legally liable to a very large backdated electricity bill.

By the way, a good simple energy puzzle for the non-technical is this: You have a well insulated room. Inside the room is a refrigerator with is fridge door open. Your record the temperature of the room. You switch on the electricity to the fridge by an external switch. You wait 24 hours. Is the room warmer, colder or the same temperature of that which was recorded? Non-technical people will usually say colder or the same temperature.
 

Online Dr. Frank

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Free Energy really exists - in Thermodynamics!
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2019, 10:34:01 am »
F:= U -TS

These are all state variables:

F is the Free Energy (after the physicist Hermann von Helmholtz)
U is an energy reservoir (inner energy)
T is the thermo dynamical temperature (in Kelvin)
S is the entropy

That's a basic definition (not a law) of thermo dynamics.
From the maximum principle of entropy (an experimentally observed and not disproved phenomenon), you can derive in a very general way, that always dF <= 0, i.e. you will always get less energy out of any system than originally was inside.
 
So maybe this term Free Energy is intentionally or un-intentionally mis-used or mis-understood (like the rest of this physics), by these perpetual motion fans.

Frank
 
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Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2019, 11:46:10 pm »
Heck, even Dave got it, how can we trust Dave is not part of that secret evil organization ?


 :-DD :-DD :-DD

To paraphrase a certain late sicilian who met his demise in a battle of wits, Dave is Australian, and we all know Australians are not to be trusted.

 So, never go in against an Australian in a battle of bullshit?  :-DD
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2019, 09:06:14 am »
It is all about entropy, or, the second law of thermodynamics. dS > 0 is the deeper reason, why perpetuum mobiles aren't possible. Never ever.

If you want to dig a bit deeper in this stuff, I can recommend this book from Roger Penrose: Cycles of Time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycles_of_Time
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2019, 08:41:10 pm »
There are few things more frustrating to a physicist than claiming that things are possible simply because our understanding of the universe is limited. These assertions are ridiculous on their face.

Nothing is possible until it has been demonstrated to be possible, and to simply assert that something is possible because it hasn't yet been shown to be impossible is ludicrous.

Scientific progress is based on consensus. A scientific discovery is only as significant as the consensus built around it, and consensus is built with continuous, repeated, independent tests of validity. The strength of the assertion is directly proportional to the evidence of it's validity.

Therefore, the idea that over unity energy production is possible simply because it hasn't been shown to be impossible due to our limited understanding of the universe is frankly bullshit and should be dismissed outright, because the consensus that the second law is thermodynamics is valid everywhere in our universe is overwhelming.

Ludwig Boltzmann died to bring you this message.
"Anything will lase if you hit it hard enough."

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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2019, 11:56:29 am »
Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics,

Wrong.

Free energy people question whether they're really laws or not. Quoting "laws" at them will achieve nothing.

It's fine to question the laws, in fact I would encourage doing so. If you claim to have found a way around one of these laws though I expect an extraordinary amount of evidence to back that claim. It needs to be thoroughly studied and the results independently duplicated by someone else, otherwise I'm calling it a scam.

And that's the trick.
When you have thousands, or tens of thousands of people thinking they have somehow broken the laws, only when analysed it's embarrassing obvious what they have got wrong. Over and over again, countless times. It's no wonder that no credible engineer or scientist will even entertain the idea any more.
As you say, it would need an exceedingly large amount of evidence to even get someone credible to look at it, let alone be at least initially convinced. And then of course repeated by a credible person or group to even get it started to be taken seriously. Or often it requires a large amount of publicity and/or money involved, like say the Steorn Orbo.

It kind of reminds me of the Richard Dawkins response when asked if anyone had ever given an interesting or credible argument for the validity of religion.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:00:54 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2019, 12:31:32 pm »
Subscribing to thread
 


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