Author Topic: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80  (Read 17013 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« on: August 21, 2018, 01:52:22 am »

 
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Offline JS

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2018, 02:18:47 am »
Nice seeing you with both, so many times you said you'd never touch one...

I guess a custom firmware could use the 65W and beat the TS80, the element will likely handle that fine, is just the controller not using 100% as the thermocouple reading is just wrong, and that's likely easy to correct in firmware.

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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2018, 04:32:34 am »
I do not like short grip to tip distance. I like to keep my fingers away from the hot bits, and I like having good reach. A long tip is especially useful for getting between components.
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2018, 06:18:45 am »
I've posted an image below of how that wire stand is meant to work on the TS-100, these units are also sold in a kit with an aluminium case along with all the other available tips and some other accessories but it costs a fair bit more and most of the tips would probably never get used anyway.

According to the TS-80 specifications sheet from the Banggood site they indicate that more tips should be available in September, if they let the customer choose which tip they want from a drop down list then this could be enough to sway some people into buying one of these irons. 

I'm going to stick with our Weller Pyropens for the moment until something else turns up, these have served us well for many years and we do a lot of solder connections with heat shrink sleeves and the side vent on the tip is ideal for this. I could be tempted to go electric if they were to release a model with the form factor and efficiency of the TS-80 and the flexible power requirements of the TS-100, the best of both worlds.   
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 09:09:57 am by Muttley Snickers »
 

Offline Barny

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2018, 06:27:10 am »
If you really are out in the feeld, most time a car, truck or other work-machine is within reach.
There's the needet 12V / 24V handy.

But to be clear.
I only have a cheap soldering station and some constant temperature rain pipe soldering iron.

The few instances, I needet a soldering iron in the fielt, I used a blow torch which heated a pice of thick copper wire.
(Which worked better then expected)

But if I had to solder in the field more often, I wouldn't use one of this USB-soldering iron.
I would get one of thegood brand replacement-holder and cuse one of the manny kits (like the one Dave gor in one of his last mail bag videos) to connect it to a drill batterie-pack, car batterie, or wathever is within reach.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2018, 07:23:16 am »
Wow, the TS100 fanboys are going ape  :popcorn:
Most didn't even watch the video and just scream UNFAIR! because they thought I tested it at 12V only  :palm:
 
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Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2018, 07:45:42 am »
I believe TS100 accepts Hakko tips?

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Offline woox2k

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2018, 07:53:03 am »
One bad thing with TS80 is that it relies on your battery bank that has to be with you. If that runs out you're out of luck. With TS100 you could easily just hack some other supply source (laptop charger, car battery etc.) to it and keep going. Good luck finding any QuickCharge3 devices in the field... TS80 should have a barrel jack input as well!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2018, 07:53:54 am »
Wow, the comments and emails just won't stop on this one.
I'm seriously considering just deleting the video and maybe putting it on EEVblog2?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2018, 07:55:06 am »
One bad thing with TS80 is that it relies on your battery bank that has to be with you. If that runs out you're out of luck. With TS100 you could easily just hack some other supply source (laptop charger, car battery etc.) to it and keep going. Good luck finding any QuickCharge3 devices in the field... TS80 should have a barrel jack input as well!

One bad thing with TS100 is that it relies on a random external supply that you have to have. If that is unavailable or runs out, you are out of luck.
See what I did their?  ;D
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 08:07:23 am »
I'm done, video removed.
The comments and the rabid fan base for this thing are just unbelievable. People cannot even comprehend things I say  :palm:
I'll still be getting endless comments and email in 12 months time if I leave this up, I don't want to deal with that.
 

Offline yaputya

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 08:17:02 am »
Is there a dongle that would emulate a QC 3.0 pack and allow any power supply to be used with the TS80?
 
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Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 08:20:54 am »
What was the bad comments about?

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Offline woox2k

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 08:26:08 am »
One bad thing with TS100 is that it relies on a random external supply that you have to have. If that is unavailable or runs out, you are out of luck.
See what I did their?  ;D
Fair enough :D With TS100 you would be hacking your supply a lot more often but my point was that at least there is such a possibility.
I'm actually trying to figure out which iron to buy. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Maybe i should wait for TS90 that has good parts from both worlds (Decent case and tips and dual input jacks)
 

Offline woox2k

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 08:31:55 am »
Is there a dongle that would emulate a QC 3.0 pack and allow any power supply to be used with the TS80?
Couldn't find any special devices but i'm pretty sure you could just modify some random QuickCharge3.0 car charger to accomplish that. Car chargers usually have wide input range anyway (10-24v)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2018, 08:42:16 am »
I'm actually trying to figure out which iron to buy. They both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Correct.
 

Offline fkfaraz

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2018, 08:48:02 am »
hello sir!

did you post it in eevblog2 or not because i can not find it there??????
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2018, 09:00:37 am »
 :scared:
It's even been pulled from the Supporters lounge.  :-//
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline BobSchruncle

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2018, 09:09:55 am »
What a shame, I was lucky enough to at least get in early and see the video before it got pulled. What sort of vitriol was being spilt over the comments then?
Shame on you Dave, how dare you not like what they like!
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2018, 09:30:15 am »
Maybe some of the more annoyed will come over here and demand that you delete their account.

That'd be entertaining.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2018, 09:58:18 am »
Only a few :palm: in your video, like suggesting you were supposed to bend the stand (it just clips on as it is), not inserting the tip entirely when comparing lengths and removing the screw as to drop it (it only takes 1-2 turns to loosen the tip, and a tip that rotates is far more infuriating than a screw). Negative and dismissing attitude from the start.

Powering it from 12V is also a mistake (its lowest setting), or not troubleshooting/investigating why the power draw was so low (mine draws 1.7-2.1 A @ 19V when loading it. Didn't see a current limit on either, so  :-//).

Still think the TS80 is very impressive, I'll consider it once it has a proper tips to select from (for SMD).

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2018, 10:16:56 am »
What a shame, I was lucky enough to at least get in early and see the video before it got pulled. What sort of vitriol was being spilt over the comments then?
Shame on you Dave, how dare you not like what they like!

It basically came down to that.
The TS100 has a massive installed base of fanboys that have been pestering me for a year now to basically validate their purchase for them.
When they got a video that showed that the TS80 had better performance, and that the TS100 wasn't absolute magic, they got a tad upset.

Some had a point that it was a poor "review", and I kinda agree, except that it wasn't supposed to be an in-depth review, it was just a quick comparison with the TS80 because people had asked for that. I made do with the tip I had available borrowed from David2. I actually debated releasing it on EEVblog2 initially, but I can't do that now because they'll just attack it there too.

Someone on Twitter suggested I charge a buck for it and put it on Vimeo on demand  >:D
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 10:19:34 am »
Powering it from 12V is also a mistake (its lowest setting)

 |O here we go again. If you watched the video you know very well that I also did a test powered from 24V
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2018, 10:20:56 am »
:scared:
It's even been pulled from the Supporters lounge.  :-//

People have the link, so I can't just make it Unlisted. I'd have to re-upload to make available to supporters.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2018, 10:25:31 am »
Only a few :palm: in your video, like suggesting you were supposed to bend the stand (it just clips on as it is), not inserting the tip entirely when comparing lengths and removing the screw as to drop it (it only takes 1-2 turns to loosen the tip, and a tip that rotates is far more infuriating than a screw). Negative and dismissing attitude from the start.

I admit I got the tip length wrong, but the point is still valid.
And the screw thing is something that could very well happen in the field.
This was done in my usual unboxing/first use style because it wasn't supposed to be a proper in-depth review video.
It's only "negative and dismissing" because you want to view it that way, I had no such intention. If the TS100 performed better than the TS80 I would have highlighted that and said so. But it didn't, and I stand by my comparison barring using a bigger tip, as the tip is what I had at the time.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 11:00:52 am »
I don't understand the self censorship to be honest?

Yes I get it's frustrating to get inappropriate emails, but isn't that something you can expect?
What goes around comes around.
I do feel with you though, I never understand why people will defend subjective beliefs like it's the last thing in the world.
Even on this forum it doesn't always make discussions very pleasant.

Just to give some well meant feedback;
I also find your view on cheaper products mostly negative.
Very quickly it's already crap.
Instead it would be nicer to hear some more context around it, see its potential

For example, you can bash on a solder stand or bad cable, but instead you could also think like it would only cost a little effort to make that work.
Most of the time these are accessories put in as a bonus by the webshop anyway

I posted a topic before about this, I kind of miss the tweak and hack mentality.
In the old days we were always looking for potential, less pointing out the flaws.

Btw while the TS80 has nice tips, they aren't compatible with anything else.
This means you can't use your standard Hakko tips that can be bought almost everywhere.
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Offline kwinz

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 11:01:24 am »
Hi Dave,

I came to the forum to find out what happend with the video.

First of all I appreciate your content and you long running channel a lot!

Having said that I don't understand your argument about the "rabid fanbase".
As far as I know ts-80 and ts-100 are made by the same company. So why would a viewer be a fanboy of one but hate the other?

I think the reason this video got critical comments was because you found the TS-100 to be less powerful than the TS-80.
This is something that I have personal experience with that it isn't true. My TS-100 reaches more than 65W heating easily.
So that's why I commented: maybe do a followup video where you test with updated firmware, takes only 5 min to update.
I am pretty sure that is some content that would be interresting for your audience and good views.
Of course you can also make your point and say: "but really the TS-100 is rubbish because I first had to update the firmware, and doesn't provide full power out of the box" (assuming this actually fixes the problem).
And how vendors should not expect users to have to update first.

So instead of this, you get into petty comment wars with users (many who jump to wrong conclusions or miss the part of the video where you tried higher voltage), and eventually you take down the video completely frustrated.
As someone who does Youtube for so long, I expected you to handle this more professionally!
But yeah, your channel, your rules. Hope this helps!

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2018, 11:21:11 am »
Hi Dave,
I came to the forum to find out what happend with the video.

Thanks, let me try and explain.

Quote
Having said that I don't understand your argument about the "rabid fanbase".
As far as I know ts-80 and ts-100 are made by the same company. So why would a viewer be a fanboy of one but hate the other?

Because people absolutely love the TS100, and countless people who already own it have pestered me to do a review on it, of course so that I can validate their purchase and love of it.

Quote
I think the reason this video got critical comments was because you found the TS-100 to be less powerful than the TS-80.

Yes, because people who own and love the TS100 don't want to hear that.

Quote
This is something that I have personal experience with that it isn't true. My TS-100 reaches more than 65W heating easily.
So that's why I commented: maybe do a followup video where you test with updated firmware, takes only 5 min to update.

I checked, I was running the latest 2.18 firmware as was shown in the video.
http://www.minidso.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=892

If you mean the 3rd party software, then I'm not sure I agree that's a fair comparison. As a first pass the comparison should be done with the latest stock firmware like I used.

Quote
Of course you can also make your point and say: "but really the TS-100 is rubbish because I first had to update the firmware, and doesn't provide full power out of the box" (assuming this actually fixes the problem).
And how vendors should not expect users to have to update first.

How was I supposed to know any of this?
I took the iron out of the box, I used used and measured the consumption, and it didn't perform. Is this somehow my fault?

Also, didn't Marco Reps(?) review the TS80 and found it outperformed the TS100 also?

Quote
So instead of this, you get into petty comment wars with users (many who jump to wrong conclusions or miss the part of the video where you tried higher voltage)

Bingo, I corrected them as I always do.
Because I was forced to do this 20 times, it probably looked "petty".

Quote
, and eventually you take down the video completely frustrated.
As someone who does Youtube for so long, I expected you to handle this more professionally!

Let me try and explain it to you from a content creators point of view.
We continue to get comments and email for years after a video is released, and for "controversial" videos this can get to ridiculous and unmanageable proportions.
Some say just ignore then, or delete them, or block them. or disable comments, but I pride myself on being a Youtuber who goes to the massive amount of effort to respond to comments and clear up misconceptions etc. And it would pain me to not be able to do it.

I've produced over 1500 video, so from the comments and email so far I can tell that it's never going to end, so the best decision was to remove the video.

As mentioned, it wasn't meant to be a review video, it was  a quick comparison with a borrowed iron and the only tip I had. But as fate would have it, that was never going to be good enough or acceptable for many people.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 11:25:21 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline kwinz

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 11:26:22 am »
https://youtu.be/83STpUXHilk?t=374

Actually you are right. Marco Reps video is super funny by the way.
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.
But he also shows the TS100 drawing 60W, which made me think you have a problem in your setup (firmware or maybe you got a faulty device).

In any case thanks again!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 11:29:14 am by kwinz »
 

Offline bodger

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 11:29:58 am »
TS80 certainly has better performance as it should, being the successor to the TS100. However, without knowing what additional tips will be available in future and how much they will cost (if this info is out there let us know as I haven't found it) - so far I'm not tempted to upgrade from the TS100. If the tips turn out the be $20-$30, there is a open source alternative that uses Weller RT tips.
I do like the USB-C power as I currently use a 2P3S powerbank with 18650 cells that allow me to set the voltage between 3-21V which is obviously bulky, so a small quickcharge 3.0 powerbank would be nice.
 

Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 11:38:42 am »
Quote
I think the reason this video got critical comments was because you found the TS-100 to be less powerful than the TS-80.

Yes, because people who own and love the TS100 don't want to hear that.
FWIW it was a low quality part of the video which lacked objectivity. While I agree to almost all bad things you said about TS100, performance comparison was a fail (even if you'd get the same poor result with larger tip). If you don't have comparable tip, IMO you should either order one or just don't compare heating power, even with comment that they are not the same. Because this is like comparing apples vs oranges but still making a conclusion. The fact it didn't go much above 20W power consumption clearly shows that the tip just keeps the set temperature at built in thermocouple while a lot of temperature drops over the distance between it and point of the tip due to comparably small cross section. IME, tip with such shape won't do that great heat transfer even if it was JBC.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 11:45:25 am by wraper »
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 11:42:31 am »
I actually don't get most critical comments.
Dave was trying to prove a point.
People are just nitpicking, putting things out of context and blowing things out of proportion.
Like I said before, bringing up subjective arguments like it's the end of the world

The only few things that count;
Does it solder well, is it easy to use, how much does it cost, doesn't it fall apart and is it ergonomic?

Besides we are talking about a different between 18W and 65W.
Is it so difficult to put these numbers in perspective?  :-//
That difference is HUGE!
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Offline timgiles

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 11:43:52 am »
Well - for me I think either of them would make for a great through hole iron on my bench with my Hakko 950 taking care of 99% of the SMD components. It certainly takes up a lot less room than a second bench iron.

From seeing the pair of them, the 200/80 certainly seems to be the more modern device. I have a 12V lipo that I use for my astronomy gear but its big and having seen that QC 3.0 USB batteries are no more expensive than normal ones,  I think this makes up my mind.

I hope for all those who know and love the TS100 - that it if it is possible to port some of the same love and functionality to the 80 in future with an open source FW - that would be great.

Dave - I liked a lot that you reviewed both. I also wish you had the same tip on both (at least a bit closer in size/type!) but you had what you had and that does not invalidate what happened when you carried out your tests. Shame if the video disappears for good.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 11:45:17 am »
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.

Ok, so the TS80 beats the TS100 as per the conclusion I came to.
Now, knowing this, if I redo the video and get that result are people going to complain that I went in with a "negative attitude"?  ;D
 

Offline timgiles

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2018, 11:47:05 am »
I think it is clear looking at the performance that the TS80 tip design is a generational improvement on the 100 design. Its great that the company did this and did not just take the cheaper route of creating a second body / pcb that worked with the same tips.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2018, 11:48:18 am »
Dave - I liked a lot that you reviewed both. I also wish you had the same tip on both (at least a bit closer in size/type!) but you had what you had and that does not invalidate what happened when you carried out your tests. Shame if the video disappears for good.

I did my best to compensate for the tip geometry by having extra solder covering the tip, and I even pointed this out in the video, I thought it was fairly equivalent. But nope, not good enough for people, and well, I'm not going to argue, and why I don't want to still be arguing the same thing in a years time.
 

Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2018, 11:49:27 am »
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.

Ok, so the TS80 beats the TS100 as per the conclusion I came to.
Now, knowing this, if I redo the video and get that result are people going to complain that I went in with a "negative attitude"?  ;D
IMO if you get a proper cartridge for TS100, and reshoot performance comparison part of the video, overall it would be a great video. I don't think there would be much objective and subjective reasons to complain.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2018, 11:53:05 am »
And to be honest, my motivation to go and remake the video is near zero.
I'd have to get another TS100 (because questions of different models, potential faulty unit etc), various tips (none of which actually match the TS80 precisely it seems), Hakko tips to check compatibility, maybe a Hakko 951 for comparison, different power sources (and hack a way to monitor power from those) to prove they are all equal, the hacked firmware, etc, it's all just too much. Add on top that I've done a fair few soldering videos lately, and well, I think I'm just better off forgetting all about it.  :-\
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2018, 11:54:50 am »
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.

Ok, so the TS80 beats the TS100 as per the conclusion I came to.
Now, knowing this, if I redo the video and get that result are people going to complain that I went in with a "negative attitude"?  ;D
IMO if you get a proper cartridge for TS100, and reshoot performance comparison part of the video, overall it would be a great video. I don't think there would be much objective and subjective reasons to complain.
The tip is everything, you can clearly see that with the TS80.
Since the circuit of the TS100 is almost identical, I don't really see why there should be an enormous difference.
The question is, are there similar cartridges available for the TS100?
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Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2018, 11:55:36 am »
I did my best to compensate for the tip geometry by having extra solder covering the tip, and I even pointed this out in the video, I thought it was fairly equivalent.
There is still a significant distance with low cross section. It greatly reduces the performance. There is a good reason why JBC has regular and high performance tips of the same size. One offers better accessibility in tight places, other much better heat transfer.

 

Offline woox2k

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2018, 12:01:16 pm »
I think I'm just better off forgetting all about it.  :-\
Good call! People are too heated on this topic and any new video would just bring that up again. No matter what you do, someone would think you did something wrong anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if someone came to tell that you hooked power leads the wrong way around and electrons cant flow to the tip properly  :-DD

Better to move on to another things...
 

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2018, 12:13:08 pm »
I'd have to get another TS100 (because questions of different models, potential faulty unit etc)
There were different revisions but AFAIK the only significant change was different accelerometer used, hence you see two footprints for different parts as this is newer revision. I don't think there is any reason to believe it could be faulty. BTW with alternative firmware actual tip temperature will increase and should be very close to displayed.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2018, 12:26:46 pm »
I'd have to get another TS100 (because questions of different models, potential faulty unit etc)
There were different revisions but AFAIK the only significant change was different accelerometer used, hence you see two footprints for different parts as this is newer revision. I don't think there is any reason to believe it could be faulty. BTW with alternative firmware actual tip temperature will increase and should be very close to displayed.
I don't find the temp difference such a big deal to be very honest.
I personally rarely even care about temp, since it doesn't say that much about performance.
Just go by feel, if it doesn't solder, just bump up the temp a little higher.
If it still doesn't solder and it's big; get a bigger tip

Btw, nowadays there are plenty of power banks with a 19V output
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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2018, 12:31:25 pm »
I don't find the temp difference such a big deal to be very honest.
When you set exactly the same temperature and do side by side comparison on high thermal mass plane, 10-20oC can make a quite noticeable difference. Especially when using lead-free solder.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2018, 12:32:44 pm »
wow... that's some mighty full-on angst for an A-B test of a couple of cheap soldering irons!

sounds like everyone getting upset needs to go out and buy some more soldering irons, so they don't only have one iron to define their sense of self worth.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2018, 12:37:44 pm »
I don't find the temp difference such a big deal to be very honest.
When you set exactly the same temperature and do side by side comparison on high thermal mass plane, 10-20oC can make a quite noticeable difference. Especially when using lead-free solder.
Yes, but ehm isn't it about practice?
I understand your point, but like I said, if it won't solder, just bump up the temp a little?  :-//
Who cares if solder iron A is a little off compared to solder iron B.
Only thing I care about is; will it solder?

Just because the reading is off (on the LCD screen) doesn't say much about the tip temperature.
And in fact, the tip temperature doesn't say much about the solder temperature, let alone the temperature in the part that is being heated with it.
So it's a bit of an arbitrary value anyway.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 12:42:14 pm by b_force »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2018, 12:44:41 pm »
The tip is everything, you can clearly see that with the TS80.
Since the circuit of the TS100 is almost identical, I don't really see why there should be an enormous difference.

It's not just the shape and volume of the tip, it's the heater element coupling size, shape and placement, inner coupling material efficiency, outer plating type and thickness etc.

Quote
The question is, are there similar cartridges available for the TS100?

Not in the new design AFAIK. Apparently it takes Hakko tips with some 3D printed adapter?
Only issue is now you get into an endless comparison of different tips types and manufacturers to determine the "winner" in thermal capacity.
And even then, that might not matter a rats arse for most users under most circumstances.
This is why I do the low temperature tests that I do, to push the tips to their lower (impractical) limits in order to see the real differences. Many people don't seem to understand this concept.
 

Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2018, 12:45:27 pm »
Yes, but ehm isn't it about practice?
I understand your point, but like I said, if it won't solder, just bump up the temp a little?  :-//
Who cares if solder iron A is a little off compared to solder iron B.
Only thing I care about is; will it solder?
Well, we are commenting about video after all. As of real world, simply bumping temperature is not and issue if you need to make a few solder joints. However when you are doing many tens and hundreds of them, there is a big difference. Flux starts to burn on the tip and a lot of dross appears. Tip oxidizes and needs tinning done very often.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2018, 12:52:21 pm »
The tip is everything, you can clearly see that with the TS80.
Since the circuit of the TS100 is almost identical, I don't really see why there should be an enormous difference.

It's not just the shape and volume of the tip, it's the heater element coupling size, shape and placement, inner coupling material efficiency, outer plating type and thickness etc.

Quote
The question is, are there similar cartridges available for the TS100?

Not in the new design AFAIK. Apparently it takes Hakko tips with some 3D printed adapter?
Only issue is now you get into an endless comparison of different tips types and manufacturers to determine the "winner" in thermal capacity.
And even then, that might not matter a rats arse for most users under most circumstances.
This is why I do the low temperature tests that I do, to push the tips to their lower (impractical) limits in order to see the real differences. Many people don't seem to understand this concept.
Yes I agree.
There is quite some engineering in those tips  8)

I personally never get why there needs to be "winners"?
As if there is only one type of scenario, it is just a different product.

For example, absolutely no way I would buy either of these in an harsh professional environment.
Also the fact that the availability for parts is extremely limited, so for companies this is automatically a no go.
Does that immediately makes it a bad product? No, it's just made for a different purpose.

It's a bit like audiophools, but than like solderironphools (or maybe just gearphools).

A good review should point that out and see if the product succeeds the performance for the market it's made for.
A bluetooth speaker is also not made for live concerts.
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Offline Stavros

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2018, 12:56:16 pm »
So the TS-80 was better? That's too bad, I bought a TS100 a few weeks ago (it just arrived), thinking that it would be much better than my $30 piece of crap iron (and it is). However, it's a bit inconvenient that I have to have a good power supply nearby with an appropriate barrel jack, the QC3.0 with USB-C iron would have been much more convenient. Oh well, maybe I'll sell the TS100 to someone and order the TS80.

I would have liked to see the video, though, as I always enjoy Dave's analyses (and was surprised the conclusion on the original TS80 video wasn't "it's crap, just get a proper $1000 iron" ;D). Too bad it got taken down.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2018, 01:00:24 pm »
Yes, but ehm isn't it about practice?
I understand your point, but like I said, if it won't solder, just bump up the temp a little?  :-//
Who cares if solder iron A is a little off compared to solder iron B.
Only thing I care about is; will it solder?
Well, we are commenting about video after all. As of real world, simply bumping temperature is not and issue if you need to make a few solder joints. However when you are doing many tens and hundreds of them, there is a big difference. Flux starts to burn on the tip and a lot of dross appears. Tip oxidizes and needs tinning done very often.
I agree, but <6-7% in temp difference isn't going to be that significant?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that flux usually burns at temp >450 degrees C

Besides the fact that if you're soldering an awful lot I wouldn't recommend using this tool anyway
So I don't think that's a very valid argument. (tens or hundreds is not an awful lot IMO)

So the TS-80 was better? That's too bad, I bought a TS100 a few weeks ago (it just arrived), thinking that it would be much better than my $30 piece of crap iron (and it is). However, it's a bit inconvenient that I have to have a good power supply nearby with an appropriate barrel jack, the QC3.0 with USB-C iron would have been much more convenient. Oh well, maybe I'll sell the TS100 to someone and order the TS80.

I would have liked to see the video, though, as I always enjoy Dave's analyses (and was surprised the conclusion on the original TS80 video wasn't "it's crap, just get a proper $1000 iron" ;D). Too bad it got taken down.
That really depends on your definition and context of better.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 01:02:58 pm by b_force »
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Offline Stavros

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2018, 01:12:37 pm »
That really depends on your definition and context of better.

I guess that's true, for the three times I use it per year, I bet the TS100 is more than enough.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2018, 01:30:10 pm »
That really depends on your definition and context of better.

I guess that's true, for the three times I use it per year, I bet the TS100 is more than enough.
More than enough is just about right, lol

In that case I would just buy a cheap Hakko clone. lol  8)

To give people some context.

At work I use a JBC, why?
Well it was just simply there and it's readably available (incl cartridges) at our main supplier.
Time is money, so every minute I look for a different alternative will probably cost us more.

At home I still use my old Hakko clone that I once bought as a student many many many years ago.
I simply didn't have more money at the time and the Hakko clones have at least temp control and different tips.

The JBC is obviously by far a better soldering iron.
But after all these years I actually can't be really bothered to change my Hakko clone.
It does what it does, I can solder 97% of the things totally fine (SMD as well as cables)
Yeah, the tips burn up quickly, but they are cheap and easily available.
Temp control isn't that precise and heat up time as well.
Both aren't the end of the world.
Yes, the JBC is better on every aspect, except prize.

The main reason why I am now very interested in something like a TS100 or TS80, is because I travel a lot.
So I am looking for something small, plus I also want to downsize/declutter a lot.
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Offline ckambiselis

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2018, 01:39:31 pm »
Dave since you talked about the tip of the TS80 and it is actually the main concern I have between the TS80 and TS100 (since there aren't any small tips available yet), could you check the polarity of the 3.5mm jack on the TS80, I have access to a Weller micropencil soldering iron that has the same jack interface (RT series of tips), from what I can see the TS80 tip is longer from the jack to the fingerguard of the tip but since the can unscrew the black barrel from the controller that shouldn't be a problem. The Wellers jack to fingerguard, which is actually the grip, is about 14mm and I think it was something like 6mm in diameter and that space could be filled be cutting the barrel that screws off the TS80 or by fabricobling somekind of metal tube.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 01:46:45 pm by ckambiselis »
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2018, 01:42:39 pm »
I'm done, video removed.
The comments and the rabid fan base for this thing are just unbelievable. People cannot even comprehend things I say  :palm:
I'll still be getting endless comments and email in 12 months time if I leave this up, I don't want to deal with that.
come on Dave, just because of some negative comments... did negative comments stop Batteroo? or Juicero? and those are some really crappy ideas...

Do a followup video if you think something was missed. Ignore or disable comments on the video and filter all mail containing TS100 in the body or title, to spam.

 

Offline woox2k

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2018, 01:48:22 pm »
It's a bit like audiophools, but than like solderironphools (or maybe just gearphools).
Sodderphools  :-DD

Dam, this thread makes me want to buy the TS80. I need an iron that i can take with me and handle soldering medium gauge wires. At first i was considering buying TS100 because it's more powerful but apparently TS80 still beats it in real world scenarios. Lower power spec is pretty much the only thing bad about TS80 and if that isn't all that bad then wheres the question?
I dont even care i could in theory use proper tips with TS100 because would not be my primary iron. Bench/primary irons are whole another thing, better tips are always better there. This iron is not a bench iron one should use as a primary iron anyway and buying expensive tips to drop them onto concrete floor on the field isn't so good idea.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 01:54:54 pm by woox2k »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2018, 02:02:28 pm »
I'm done, video removed.
The comments and the rabid fan base for this thing are just unbelievable. People cannot even comprehend things I say  :palm:
I'll still be getting endless comments and email in 12 months time if I leave this up, I don't want to deal with that.
come on Dave, just because of some negative comments... did negative comments stop Batteroo? or Juicero? and those are some really crappy ideas...

Do a followup video if you think something was missed. Ignore or disable comments on the video and filter all mail containing TS100 in the body or title, to spam.

I've explained all those points, I won't repeat myself.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2018, 02:22:39 pm »
Are you guys fussing same way on Big Clive blog? The Signal Path blog? Other blogs?

It is just a goddam blog! Why getting a heart attack over what the owner post? Have nothing bettef to do ?
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Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2018, 02:24:52 pm »
So the TS-80 was better? That's too bad, I bought a TS100 a few weeks ago (it just arrived), thinking that it would be much better than my $30 piece of crap iron (and it is). However, it's a bit inconvenient that I have to have a good power supply nearby with an appropriate barrel jack, the QC3.0 with USB-C iron would have been much more convenient. Oh well, maybe I'll sell the TS100 to someone and order the TS80.

I would have liked to see the video, though, as I always enjoy Dave's analyses (and was surprised the conclusion on the original TS80 video wasn't "it's crap, just get a proper $1000 iron" ;D). Too bad it got taken down.
Don't bother with that. The tip Dave used was much smaller and only able to pump about 30% of the rated power. If you use tips of comparable size, it will be about the same or better (especially with larger tips), if you look at the TS80 test in previous video, it really struggled to keep temperature at heater not only solder joint due to low power. TS100 has more power, so with larger tips it will be able to deliver more heat. The only thing I really don't like about TS100 is unergonomic shape of the handle.
Even if heater-tip thermal transfer is not that good for particular tip, you can still just set higher temperature, while TS80 won't be able to keep it even at heater itself due to lack of power.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 02:49:52 pm by wraper »
 

Offline kcozens

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2018, 02:37:57 pm »
I started to watch this video yesterday but had to put it on pause. I came back today to finish watching it only to find its gone. Is it going to be coming back again?
 

Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2018, 02:44:16 pm »
Watch at 3rd minute, TS100 can pull even 80W when powered at higher voltage and with larger tip. While at Dave's test it consumed barely over 20W.
 

Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2018, 02:58:47 pm »
Are you guys fussing same way on Big Clive blog? The Signal Path blog? Other blogs?

It is just a goddam blog! Why getting a heart attack over what the owner post? Have nothing bettef to do ?
Yeah! Right! I concur, they have nutting bettef to do the bastlads! :D
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2018, 03:33:29 pm »
So the TS-80 was better? That's too bad, I bought a TS100 a few weeks ago (it just arrived), thinking that it would be much better than my $30 piece of crap iron (and it is).

Did you ever stop to wonder why 10 to 15 different YouTube channels all got free TS100 units around thensame time to review a few months ago? And the way I see it, if it’s free the review isn’t never 100% honest. If you do a bad review on a free time you won’t get anymore free stuff, so never do that or bangood might cut you off.
I questioned the sudden increase in the TS100 reviews. My first thought was the are trying to clear out old stock and using YouTube reviews to drive up the sales knowing something better was going to be released soon.
Maybe good free advertimemts and marketing?
It’s not like they lied to people, its just smart marketing and using amazon/youtube reviewers to drumb up sales on old stock before releasing a new version.
Maybe this is why Dave also got so many comments, a lot of people bought the TS100 in the last couple of months from these reviews and now something better is out?
Do some of these people feel like they were ripped off?
Is this why Dave had so many requests to review the TS100 and TS80 together in the first place?

I watched the other videoss, but skipped this one because he has been doing a lot of soldering iron videos. Now I wish I watched it.
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Offline bctouw

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2018, 06:08:54 pm »
Why did you remove the video?,   this is just what i like about you Dave, All opinion, nothing scripted, remember.

I am a ts100 fanboy also and having a bit of a hard time accepting all of this.
but the build quality IS BETTER !!,   It would be auwsome if the electronics of the TS100 could be combined with the build quality of the ts80.

anyway hope you put the video back up.

BAS
 

Offline MacMeter

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2018, 06:12:28 pm »
Geez, sorry I missed all the fireworks, and the MIA video!
 

Offline modrobert

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2018, 06:53:43 pm »
Dave,

I kind of miss the old "drop test" videos for multimeters, maybe you could do something similar for TS80 and TS100? Will it survive 20m free fall? Will it blend? 1000V "up its clacker" test? ;)
 

Offline JS

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2018, 06:56:14 pm »
Why did you remove the video?,   this is just what i like about you Dave, All opinion, nothing scripted, remember.

I am a ts100 fanboy also and having a bit of a hard time accepting all of this.
but the build quality IS BETTER !!,   It would be auwsome if the electronics of the TS100 could be combined with the build quality of the ts80.

anyway hope you put the video back up.

BAS
He mentioned something about taking it to the second channel, I didn't understand the reasons but likely to be more intimate to avoid too much hate mail or something...

JS

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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2018, 07:24:50 pm »
I'm done, video removed.
The comments and the rabid fan base for this thing are just unbelievable. People cannot even comprehend things I say  :palm:
I'll still be getting endless comments and email in 12 months time if I leave this up, I don't want to deal with that.

Can you post a few, for laughs? Or weren't they funny?

Maybe there's a video to be made about the comments on that video.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2018, 07:52:23 pm »
https://youtu.be/83STpUXHilk?t=374

Actually you are right. Marco Reps video is super funny by the way.
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.
But he also shows the TS100 drawing 60W, which made me think you have a problem in your setup (firmware or maybe you got a faulty device).

The odd thing is in his comments, no one seems to be complaining about his methodology or results.

There is still a significant distance with low cross section. It greatly reduces the performance. There is a good reason why JBC has regular and high performance tips of the same size. One offers better accessibility in tight places, other much better heat transfer.
https://www.jbctools.com/cartridges_png/C245-806_datasheet.png
https://www.jbctools.com/cartridges_png/C245-406_datasheet.png

Sure, but the TS100 tip selection is incredibly limited. Perhaps some third party sellers are offering new designs, but if you look at the original six designs maybe two or three are of any use.
Why aren't there multiple width flat chisel tips?

Not in the new design AFAIK. Apparently it takes Hakko tips with some 3D printed adapter?
Only issue is now you get into an endless comparison of different tips types and manufacturers to determine the "winner" in thermal capacity.
And even then, that might not matter a rats arse for most users under most circumstances.
This is why I do the low temperature tests that I do, to push the tips to their lower (impractical) limits in order to see the real differences. Many people don't seem to understand this concept.

I agree a 3d printed adapter is hard to justify discussing. You can purchase a T12 station from china that directly takes T12 tips and costs less than the TS100 if you want to go that route.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2018, 10:06:08 pm »
Also, didn't Marco Reps(?) review the TS80 and found it outperformed the TS100 also?

Marco Reps used the tried and true formula: "four legs good, two legs better", while you used "four legs bad, two legs good", which is suicide when you want to minimize objections.

TS-100 is good, TS-80 is better explains why Marco Reps' review is alive.

TS-100 is bad, TS-80 is good explains why you had to shoot yourself in the head and take the video down.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:07:59 pm by bsfeechannel »
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2018, 10:49:08 pm »
https://youtu.be/83STpUXHilk?t=374

Actually you are right. Marco Reps video is super funny by the way.
He found the TS100 to have 20 C lower temperate control and the TS80 to have better soldering performance on the large thermal mass. Presumably not just because of temperature control, but also due to better tip.
But he also shows the TS100 drawing 60W, which made me think you have a problem in your setup (firmware or maybe you got a faulty device).

The odd thing is in his comments, no one seems to be complaining about his methodology or results.



I think it is because he has done two things. First he doesn't talk down to his audience and dare them to disagree. You see what he sees and you are left to calmly draw your own conclusions. Second and importantly he has made an effort to make something of value to enjoy.

Everyone wants to be treated with the proper respect.
Why I like his videos is also because he sees potential in most things.
Aka; the tweaking mentality is still there.
So he even gives cheap gear a change, maybe hack a bit or see possibilities.
If that still doesn't work he mostly lets the viewer decided (well obviously with a bit of his own opinion)
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Offline SodaAnt

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2018, 01:01:18 am »
And the way I see it, if it’s free the review isn’t never 100% honest.

Does that make pretty much every eevblog test equiptment review less than 100% honest then? Considering he gets many multi-thousand dollar scopes for free to review (and possibly gets to keep them as well).

I think reviews of free stuff can be unbiased, but it requires disclosing that the item was received for free, and keeping cost in mind more than one usually would (since you didn't actually pay for it).
 

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2018, 01:38:39 am »
Also, didn't Marco Reps(?) review the TS80 and found it outperformed the TS100 also?
Marco Reps used the tried and true formula: "four legs good, two legs better", while you used "four legs bad, two legs good", which is suicide when you want to minimize objections.
TS-100 is good, TS-80 is better explains why Marco Reps' review is alive.
TS-100 is bad, TS-80 is good explains why you had to shoot yourself in the head and take the video down.

If you actually watched the video, I also praised the TS100 and said it was good. I said buy whatever one suits your needs from a power POV.
 

Offline Cody Turner OKC

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2018, 01:39:15 am »
Nice kid brings cookies to some kids at the park, they ungratefully take and eat the cookies.. as kid is leaving they decide those free cookies didn't taste good enough, and continue on to go beat the crap out of the kid and laugh in his face, "next time you decide to go out of your way to do something for us, you better do it better, because WE know whats best for you.." TS100 fanboys.. its a soldering iron.  |O |O |O
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2018, 01:43:49 am »
Why did you remove the video?

Read the thread, sorry but I will not repeat myself again.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2018, 02:02:31 am »
Wow, the comments and emails just won't stop on this one.

People actually write you personal emails about your videos?
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2018, 02:54:52 am »
You sound surprised.

I can believe that all too easily.  When people are highly charged with emotion (both positive and negative), they can be motivated to make contact in any form possible to "connect" with the author.

I'd hate to think how many emails Dave has scored from his Youtube efforts.
 

Offline GuidoK

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2018, 02:59:59 am »
TBH I thought it was a bad review, mainly because Dave didnt inform himself enough.
Not knowing how the stand works, pointing out the wrong spot for the earth screw, even if its labelled/embossed on the housing, and making mistakes about interchangebility on the soldering points (ok, thats a complicated one I admit but Dave is a pro). These were things easily avoided.
The only smart thing he said in the review was (imho) how good the ts-80 would be if it had both the usbC and barrel jack. Because there is a large TS-100 fanbase that uses the iron because of the barrel jack and not having to rely on the (complicated) USB C interface. Every RC enthousiast in the field (drone/boat/plane/car/etc) usually has a simple power source (car battery, charger/adapter, lipo power pack etc), but not a complicated USBC current source. He'd have to take that with him as an extra. A barrel jack lead to whatever powersource you want to use is very easy to make. USBC not so much.

The thermo design of the TS-80 tips is probably better when I looked at the comparison, although not the same tips used (the TS-100 also has a very large tip available (TS-C4 tip) comparable to that huge TS-80 chisel. It would be better to test that before hammering down on the superiority of the ts-80 tips. Better to know for sure I think.
If it is really better, then I hope they're going to make ts-80 style tips for the ts-100. That shouldnt be too difficult I think.

I also wonder if the ts-80 tip with the 3,5mm barrel jack doesnt turn easily with chisel and drag tips. Of course the handle is totally round but I like the buttons and screen on top and I wonder if you install the tip that way it wont rotate during use. I guess thats what the screw is for on the ts-100. You can put the tips in fine without the screw similar to the ts80 but I wonder if that has the same ergonomics.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 03:06:24 am by GuidoK »
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2018, 06:03:35 am »
Also, didn't Marco Reps(?) review the TS80 and found it outperformed the TS100 also?
Marco Reps used the tried and true formula: "four legs good, two legs better", while you used "four legs bad, two legs good", which is suicide when you want to minimize objections.
TS-100 is good, TS-80 is better explains why Marco Reps' review is alive.
TS-100 is bad, TS-80 is good explains why you had to shoot yourself in the head and take the video down.

If you actually watched the video, I also praised the TS100 and said it was good. I said buy whatever one suits your needs from a power POV.

Yes, I watched the video. At least 2/3 of it. Until it inexplicably stopped and then vanished.

In fact, I watched almost all your videos, since EEVblog #1. Some of them more than once. Some of them, many times.

But if you really praised the TS-100, then we need to find another explanation as to why one review went so smoothly and the other did not. Given the same "rabid" fanboys have watched both reviews.

So, let's investigate.

Being such an avid EEVblog viewer, I learned how to ponder your opinions. In fact you taught me that on EEVBlog #22 (6:39):

I got a rather interesting comment once, in fact I've had more than once in various forms, but the comment was basically: how do we know you're RIGHT? How  can we take your word for it? On, you know, all these things and all these topics? And, well, you know, it's a really good question, and the answer is you SHOULDN'T. You should never take anyone's word for it. Don't take anything i say on these blogs as gospel. Uh, you know, I've been in the industry for 20 years so, you know, I like to think I do know what I'm talking about mostly. But, you know, don't take my word for it. All my blogs, and all the things I talk about on here are designed to be food for thought. You're supposed to use your own engineering judgment and, you know, and go out and verify things. If you're, you know, if you're really interested in something, don't complain that i didn't explain it right or and you know i might have got it a bit wrong or something like that. Go out and investigate for yourself. That's what it's all about: food for thought.

But I guess not everybody in your audience is "trained" to entertain your opinions without accepting them, to paraphrase Aristotle.

Maybe the fact that you made some harsh comments about the TS-100 before praising it made people disregard your final verdict.

My impression is that Marco Reps, by showing how the TS-80 was better than the TS-100, without saying any negative comments, tacitly showed the deficiencies of TS-100.

Anyway, I'm just trying to find a way out of this perplexity.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2018, 06:21:41 am »
My impression is that Marco Reps, by showing how the TS-80 was better than the TS-100, without saying any negative comments, tacitly showed the deficiencies of TS-100.
Anyway, I'm just trying to find a way out of this perplexity.

There is no need to analyse this, it's a simple (or maybe not so simple) combination of people not watching the whole video and comprehending what I said before commenting, that it was more just a quick first-use playaround comparison than a review (yes, call it "lazy" if you want), that I didn't have a correct comparable tip, that I put it on the main EEVblog channel when it should have been on EEVblog2 (I tried to "polish a turd" in editing basically), and mix in some fanboyism of TS100 and bingo, you get the defensive and sometimes attacking responses. Small things just added up to a comment frenzy.
No biggie, I just pulled the video and problem solved, like I've done a few times in the past for similar reasons.
Whether or not I'll do it again, I don't know, for now I couldn't be bothered ordering a TS100 and tips to re-do it, my motivation isn't high for a product that is basically an old design now.
I just ordered a knockoff FX-951 as I think that's a more interesting video to make than validating the TS100 to the countless people who already own it and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2018, 06:23:16 am »
Wow, the comments and emails just won't stop on this one.
People actually write you personal emails about your videos?

Yes, I get a lot of email. I try to reply to them when possible.
I'll still get emails about a video from 8 years pointing out issues, that's the life of a Youtuber.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2018, 09:45:09 am »
I don't understand why people keep saying that the TS80 is the successor?  :-//
They look more like two different products to me.
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline kd6oji

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2018, 11:14:39 am »
Dave, I admire your resolve on this, and I agree with you. You have never pulled any punches with anything you have reviewed, whether it be a cheap farting toy or a $15k scope. That is one of the things we who have watched you for years enjoy. I too get blasted for attempting to help people in my own way, and I have flat refused to do it anymore, it is draining and unproductive. If they don't like it, they are free to do so, but I guarantee you that you have more fans out here than some portable soldering iron. Keep up the great work! Best to you and the family.
 

Offline Fellonium

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2018, 12:17:29 pm »
Even though I'm very much a noob member here, I'd still like to throw in an opinion.

After having read the thread, I understand Dave not wanting to deal with the hassle of fanbois. I did not actually get to see the video as it was still in my queue of things to watch (I'm busy enough that I can't just watch whatever comes out on youtube whenever it comes out). After reading this thread it seems the outcome was not what would have been expected and the hassle of dealing with that was too much.

I personally don't think that's a valid reason to remove the video tough, as doing that is fairly close what to what the fanbois wanted. Removing it can very easily be misconstrued as it being a bad review that had faulty reasoning and as such had to be removed. Nobody is going to read this thread to find out any actual reason unless they are avid eevblog followers.

In my experience, giving in to peer pressure (or equivalent) is always a bad thing unless you are actually proven wrong. So I'm a bit sad that this happened. I do understand why Dave did it, I don't agree with it though. There must be better ways of dealing with fanboi madness than simply removing whole videos. If you're right, you're right, if you're not, you're not. Removing a video feels like ignoring the issue because it makes life easier. That should not be the way issues are dealt with. While I know a youtube video is not a critical thing, if this happened irl (ex. work/politics/etc...) people would be reeling over a decision like that.

Either way, thumbs up to Dave.
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2018, 07:43:39 pm »
TBH I thought it was a bad review, mainly because Dave didnt inform himself enough.
Not knowing how the stand works, pointing out the wrong spot for the earth screw, even if its labelled/embossed on the housing, and making mistakes about interchangebility on the soldering points (ok, thats a complicated one I admit but Dave is a pro). These were things easily avoided.

You really think this is an acceptable stand?
Anyway from the pictures the newer ones seem to come with the metal credit card stand, which is a bit better.

edit: apparently it clips in place which is a good idea.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 11:09:23 pm by thm_w »
 

Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2018, 07:48:14 pm »
You really think this is an acceptable stand?
Anyway from the pictures the newer ones seem to come with the metal credit card stand, which is a bit better.
For portable use I don't see anything wrong with it. Actually you can throw iron anywhere without fear that small stand will accidentally fall, which is good when you are working on site.
 
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Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2018, 10:57:48 pm »
I actually like the stand.
It clicks on, it's simple it does its job
What else does one need?
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Offline JS

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2018, 12:22:04 am »
Why did you remove the video?

Read the thread, sorry but I will not repeat myself again.
Dave, a suggestion, let the video as unlisted and post the link here, you alredy made it, it does hold its worth for someone but the people who got to this thread wouldn't be so fanatic in their reaction to the video, compared to open youtube.

JS
 PS: I did watch the video in time, I think mine is the forst comment on this thread, and I acctually think there's something useful in the video for anyone in the look for one of those or any portable soldering iron.
If I don't know how it works, I prefer not to turn it on.
 

Offline jeffheath

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #88 on: August 23, 2018, 07:01:00 am »
I couldn't believe the comments section of that video! How can people get so beat up over a soldering iron??? I'm more of a lurker here, but I just had to post because I couldn't believe it got so bad it had to be taken down! :wtf: I thought I had lost my mind, looking through my comments history to see my comments just... vanished!
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2018, 08:33:20 am »
Anyone who really wants to watch the video can still go over to Bitchute and watch it there.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/3i499BC51xs/

I still don't think it is a good review. I'd suggest waiting to see if Dave decides to rework it.
Thanks wilfred.
I'm only quoting you so you can't delete this post.....along with all your other ones.  :-//
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2018, 10:49:14 am »
I don't understand why people keep saying that the TS80 is the successor?  :-//

Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2018, 11:09:54 am »
In my experience, giving in to peer pressure (or equivalent) is always a bad thing unless you are actually proven wrong. So I'm a bit sad that this happened. I do understand why Dave did it, I don't agree with it though. There must be better ways of dealing with fanboi madness than simply removing whole videos.

I can ignore comments, I can delete comments, and I can block people, there are options.
But I don't like doing those things, and when I know that I will continue to get comments and email for years to come on this, it's just not worth it.

Quote
If you're right, you're right, if you're not, you're not.

I was right, but the problem is I will have to continue to explain that to people for years to come. I don't want to do that.
That happens with other videos too, but it's not to the same extent. I know when a video will continue to be a dumpster fire for years to come, I don't need or want that.

Quote
Removing a video feels like ignoring the issue because it makes life easier.

It does.
When you have a Youtube channel with half a million subscribers you'll understand.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 11:11:54 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2018, 11:10:39 am »
I don't understand why people keep saying that the TS80 is the successor?  :-//

Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.
To some extend, yes.
But it also has less maximum power.
Are there already other cartridges (with bigger tips) available?

Enclosure design is more subjective.
Don't see what's wrong with plastic.
Pretty much every multimeter is made out of plastic?  :-//
Isolates well, scratch marks are less visible and it has better electrical and thermal isolation.
(in case of some kind of failure).

I do understand your point that aluminium feels better.
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Offline bodger

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #93 on: August 23, 2018, 11:13:58 am »
I don't understand why people keep saying that the TS80 is the successor?  :-//

Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.

Additionally, it was marked "TS200 V1.6" on the PCB as shown in Marco Reps video. I don't understand why they've called the product TS80. Unless they are going to make a TS100 upgrade that uses the same tips. So you end up with a "budget" line and the new tips as a premium product.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2018, 11:15:36 am »
I don't understand why people keep saying that the TS80 is the successor?  :-//

Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.
To some extend, yes.
But it also has less maximum power.
Are there already other cartridges (with bigger tips) available?

Yes, there is at least one bigger tip.

Quote
Enclosure design is more subjective.
Don't see what's wrong with plastic.

If you held both of then you'll feel the difference in durability. There is no contest.

Quote
Pretty much every multimeter is made out of plastic?  :-//

Vastly thicker plastic in a much more solid tongue and groove arrangement held firmly together with screws and usually in a rubber surround. Chalk and cheese.

Quote
Isolates well, scratch marks are less visible and it has better electrical and thermal isolation.
(in case of some kind of failure).

In this case you don't want thermal isolation, you want the internal heat to dissipate out efficiently.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2018, 11:44:03 am »
I don't understand why people keep saying that the TS80 is the successor?  :-//

Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.

Additionally, it was marked "TS200 V1.6" on the PCB as shown in Marco Reps video. I don't understand why they've called the product TS80. Unless they are going to make a TS100 upgrade that uses the same tips. So you end up with a "budget" line and the new tips as a premium product.
That would actually make a lot more sense.

I just found it weird to call it a successor.
If that was the case they would just simply keep most of it, only change the cartridge mount and maybe the case.
The price difference is pretty significant as well.

I don't know (but find it very likely) that similar style HAKKO cartridges are patented.
So it could also be that they are looking for some options to prevent any issues in the future.
Just guessing/brainstorming here.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 11:46:24 am by b_force »
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Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #96 on: August 23, 2018, 12:06:51 pm »
I don't understand why people keep saying that the TS80 is the successor?  :-//

Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.
This is the only thing I really don't agree with. And you rightfully got some grilling for this. I don't agree with fanboy whining but criticizing was completely justified. Tip which was used on TS100 has extremely different thermal capacity. Heck even when I compare tips similar to those two on my Ersa I-Con, results are like night and day in similar test. Comparing them is simply ridiculous. Frankly you probably would get more heat even from conical tip. It still amazes me how you still don't realize that your test was very flawed when you could not pull more than 30% of the TS100 rated power. At least you could somewhat mitigate thermal resistance of the tip by cranking temperature on both so TS100 at least could push more power and see which can deliver maximum heat.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2018, 12:55:23 pm »
Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.
This is the only thing I really don't agree with. And you rightfully got some grilling for this. I don't agree with fanboy whining but criticizing was completely justified.

Marco Reps confirmed my finding, the TS80 performs better.
 
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Offline b_force

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2018, 01:19:49 pm »
Because it has demonstrably better thermal and tip design, and enclosure design. It is most certainly an evolved product.
This is the only thing I really don't agree with. And you rightfully got some grilling for this. I don't agree with fanboy whining but criticizing was completely justified.

Marco Reps confirmed my finding, the TS80 performs better.
Yes, but the point that was being made, was that it was still with different tips.
So one could argue that you're basically testing out different tips than anything else.
Which I believe is exactly the point wraper is trying to make?

On the other hand, you buy it as a whole product.
So even if it's not comparing apples with apples, in the end the consumer doesn't have much choice.
I guess just using the word "better" or "winner" can be interpret differently and might be a little misleading?
"If you can't explain it simply (or at all), you don't understand it well enough." A. Einstein

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1116 - TS100 vs TS80
« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2018, 01:29:38 pm »
Yes, but the point that was being made, was that it was still with different tips.
So one could argue that you're basically testing out different tips than anything else.
Which I believe is exactly the point wraper is trying to make?

No need to make that point, I said and explained that in the video!

Quote
I guess just using the word "better" or "winner" can be interpret differently and might be a little misleading?

Again, I explained that in the video!

You see, this is why I pulled the video. People don't watch it properly, people don't understand what the video was and wasn't, people don't comprehend what I'm saying properly, people aren't able to work in anything but absolutes.
This is why I removed the video, I don't want to have to explain this over and over and over again. I made a mistake trying to make some quick content originally intended for EEVblog2 into a main channel video, it failed, and I've pulled the video. I'm done, it's gone.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 01:32:43 pm by EEVblog »
 


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