EEVblog #112 – GSM vs The Fluke 87V Multimeter

[Kiriakos-GR]

Great tests , at list about the Fluke 87-5  we certainly know now , the guilty frequency  ...

In my hole I have also GSM network , and as more difficult the area , the mobile transmits with higher watts so to help for an balanced communication.

It was an big surprise that 3G has no effect , but at the end of the day , you never know what type of network your mobile are up to , because it switches all the time by it self ..
Because of my hole , I had switch manually on GSM .

Testing other DMM at the same condition was very reviling also.

Oh my I was screaming Dave in all the video , like ........... take the damn phone away ......

Amazingly it did not bricked .
But believe it or not , you was close enough .

I did not had the chance to do such testing on my DMM , by getting my mobile phone close to it ,
in just 15 seconds it turned off , and become an brick .

If some one cares to spot the deference's , he must visit the specific thread link
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1251.0

It could be the revision of the DMM it self ..
Some 87-5 to be more sensitive to fail than others .... who knows..
I posted high resolution pictures at the page 4 .


My congratulations about the video , its so reviling , and a great confirmation , about the problem.

Lets hope that the company , it will stand on the side of the people.
Starting by helping me out , and anyone in need,  because of this specific issue ..

  

 
 

  

      
 

[alm]

Maybe this is just an unlikely occurrence, and Kiriakos was unlucky. Or maybe it depends on exact frequency (different countries use different frequencies for GSM) or power (the farther from the power, the higher the transmit power).

[Simon]

i would say it depends on the exact frequency as the meter is clearly "tuned" also I bet dave in closer to his cell than kiriakos is, I know in Italy cell stations were not as many as I see here in the Uk and there were known spots with no signal (I had a lot of "fun" getting my mobile onto the 3G network to use it as a modem) so kiriakos's phone was probably transmitting more power. of course it might depend on the specific model for power

[Kiriakos-GR]

Some one could see the glass of water as half full , and another one as half empty .

I believe that my V600  ( Vodafone ) or K600  as internationally are known, Sony Ericsson ,
its impossible to be called as murderer of multimeter's !!

The negative influence of the GSM over the Fluke 87-5  its all that matters.
If it will become bricked or not has an second importance .

In the factory that I work , when we do electrical tests , or testing wired phone lines,
its common the two technicians to be on different locations , and to work and speak with their mobile phones , in order to synchronize their job.

If any DMM can coexist with those technicians , and the 87-5 cannot , this is the major issue.

Another thing that does have an major importance are the reaction of Fluke, about it.

I am aware that all the eyes are on my case right now ,  waiting for the official reaction of Fluke.

The plan are the DMM to be shipped  from my town to Athens on Monday 20 September,
it will  be delivered at the Authorized center in 48 hours max , so the calendar reads 22 of September .
If it moves right away to Holland , the next Monday  or Tuesday ( 27 - 28 )  I will probably have some News .        

[PetrosA]

Aman, aman - Love, Joy, Sorrow... I hope it goes back to Joy for you

[EEVblog]

If any DMM can coexist with those technicians , and the 87-5 cannot , this is the major issue.

I agree, it's a major issue. GSM phones are so common that it is simply unacceptable that a product like this (and with high such a high and long standing reputation) has problems with it.

It's likely just some amazing coincidence that some PCB trace and/or combination of component(s) happens to be susceptible at the GSM frequency in a vulnerable part of the circuit.

I'd be very surprised if Fluke do not take this issue very seriously.

Dave.

[DJPhil]

Aaaw! I just remembered something!

Way back when I read about a cell jammer on LadyAda's site, the wavebubble.

Maybe we can see if she or someone in her community has the desire and equipment to look into this further?
She/they might find it interesting anyway, and we may find an RF guru who can help if Fluke leaves folks in the cold (as unlikely as that is).
That is, if there's more to fixing things than adding tinfoil to the shielding.

[Time]

Testing other DMM at the same condition was very reviling also.

Oh my I was screaming Dave in all the video , like ........... take the damn phone away ......

Amazingly it did not bricked .

 

What do you mean by brick?  The multimeter was permanently rendered useless?  Or it was just "disabled" in the presence of the phone?

[Kiriakos-GR]

What do you mean by brick?  The multimeter was permanently rendered useless?  Or it was just "disabled" in the presence of the phone?

As technician in the field , Both cases stops me from doing my job ...  
So the description in words has an secondary value .  

As viewer of the test , I would describe as bricked  the " The multimeter was permanently rendered useless " explanation .  

The problems caused by the interference , its how it starts !!   as cause .
How the multimeter will respond to that , no one can tell .
It can survive or die ..  

Its like to throw an arrow on some one with out shield ,  50/50 %  of surviving after it or not .

[Kiriakos-GR]

Aman, aman - Love, Joy, Sorrow... I hope it goes back to Joy for you

Yes I hope to that too ,  just wrote an informative reply to http://www.fluke.gr/contact.html Fluke Greece

By Informing mister  George Zis  owner of the company , with all the related information,
about my multimeter status ( text & video ) .

And about the EEV-BLOG , and the video of David L. Jones , that his video are an major contribution that helps my case , and FLUKE so to improve the 87-5,  so to become " EMI Safe " .

From today  and on,  this thread had become officially know to FLUKE Greece and to mister George Zis partner of  " FLUKE Europe BV " http://www.fluke.nl/comx/default.aspx?locale=nlnl  

And so, at an formal level as Kiriakos Triantafyllou , I will welcome any response from them .
As feedback in this thread .      

    

[EEVblog]

Testing other DMM at the same condition was very reviling also.

Oh my I was screaming Dave in all the video , like ........... take the damn phone away ......

Amazingly it did not bricked .

 

What do you mean by brick?  The multimeter was permanently rendered useless?  Or it was just "disabled" in the presence of the phone?

Yes, his unit was permanently rendered useless, see the photos and video earlier in the thread. It looks as though it killed the firmware.

Dave.

[alm]

Maybe this is just an unlikely occurrence, and Kiriakos was unlucky. Or maybe it depends on exact frequency (different countries use different frequencies for GSM) or power (the farther from the power, the higher the transmit power).

unlikely occurrence u say? i have a China Uni-T that easily passed this test and others cheapo tested by dave in his video. now with this super expensive DMM, unlikely occurence you say? for a reputable resourcefull company like that... they should eliminate (or at least attenuate) ALL the EMI, not an "unlikely occurence". that word only acceptable for low china and cheapo products.

ps: three people already confirm this issue including Mr Dave.

I was talking about the bricking. So far Dave (or anyone else) has been unable to reproduce the permanent bricking, just the temporary interference (which sucks, but is not as big a deal). So it looks like it's either unlikely (eg. the phone must be transmitting during the 1ms than the system does an EEPROM write) or depends on some circumstances that were different in Kiriakos case. If you're looking for someone defending Fluke in this case, that's not me. But don't let these facts ruin a perfectly good rant.

[PetrosA]

So far all the other tests have been done with Nokia phones (I don't think iPhones will take over the world anytime soon ) whereas Kiriakos had a Sony-Ericsson. We also don't know what signal strength was emitted from his or other phones, what frequency was used, etc. etc. etc. I suspect at this point only Fluke or some other well equipped lab will be able to conduct the tests needed to determine the issue but I'll bet all the input from EEVBlog will give them a great place to start. Kudos to you all!

[Kiriakos-GR]

I was talking about the bricking. So far Dave (or anyone else) has been unable to reproduce the permanent bricking, just the temporary interference (which sucks, but is not as big a deal).

After all those evidence and user reports , I do not think that Users or better, the Fluke 87-5 owners ,
are thinking to push their luck , with extended tests , so to prove the all ready proven ..    

So it looks like it's either unlikely (eg. the phone must be transmitting during the 1ms than the system does an EEPROM write) or depends on some circumstances that were different in Kiriakos case.

 

circumstances like that I did black magic ?   or Voodoo ..  

If you're looking for someone defending Fluke in this case, that's not me. But don't let these facts ruin a perfectly good rant.

By my opinion ,  the good rand , has an value if it is 100% honest too .

The reliability of the 87-5 it got permanently injured  after our findings ...
The reliability of Fluke its still intact , its their job or responsibility to contribute with an fair resolution.

The good rant of Dave , made me too , to add this specific multimeter in my wish list.
But he was not aware at that time, about this problem !!  so to report it .

By his new Video, his is reporting the problem , and this is an act of honesty,
an proof of his own integrity as an not biased Video blogger .

After all this I feel 100 times more proud of being  an member,
in an such " hard to find "  unbiased Video Blog .  

 

  

 


 

[Kiriakos-GR]

I suspect at this point only Fluke or some other well equipped lab will be able to conduct the tests needed to determine the issue but I'll bet all the input from EEVBlog will give them a great place to start. Kudos to you all!

Totally agree , and I expect also and an technical solution , as fix - hardware upgrade pack ..

In this forum we are people who cares and respects such tools , and we count on their performance.

With out an true permanent fix from FLUKE , the same problem will be here and tomorrow and the day after ,and in the years to come !!  

[Mechatrommer]

unlikely occurrence u say? i have a China Uni-T that easily passed this test and others cheapo tested by dave in his video. now with this super expensive DMM, unlikely occurence you say? for a reputable resourcefull company like that... they should eliminate (or at least attenuate) ALL the EMI, not an "unlikely occurence". that word only acceptable for low china and cheapo products.

ps: three people already confirm this issue including Mr Dave.

I was talking about the bricking. So far Dave (or anyone else) has been unable to reproduce the permanent bricking, just the temporary interference (which sucks, but is not as big a deal). So it looks like it's either unlikely (eg. the phone must be transmitting during the 1ms than the system does an EEPROM write) or depends on some circumstances that were different in Kiriakos case. If you're looking for someone defending Fluke in this case, that's not me. But don't let these facts ruin a perfectly good rant.

3 people publicly informed they have tested it, 1 guy bricking it, so... so far the odd is 33.33333% chances of bricking it. from statistical point of view, we need more participants in testing their Fluke87V, and see how much bricking occurs. thats probably gives us more reliable figure, isnt it? so if we believe more on Dave's video than Kiriakos's claim, then anyone can pretty much sure they can do the test safely... are we man enough? me? i dont have the 87V to test, so i shouldnt be in the list Cheers

[Kiriakos-GR]

Personally I will stick with Dave's public advice ,

DO NOT try it at all ..   Currently there is no any written warranty plan, to cover the repair of an such event.

And so , I can only speak about what happens today , the tomorrow its not here yet .

  

[alm]

circumstances like that I did black magic ?   or Voodoo ..  

You know that black magic is not covered under warranty, right ? No, more like cell phone frequency, signal strength or type/location of antenna on the phone.

By my opinion ,  the good rand , has an value if it is 100% honest too .

This was a response to shafri, not to you or Dave. I haven't expressed any doubt in the accuracy of any of the findings, and agree this is a serious issue, since it's a single cell phone, not work on a high-powered transmitter or radar installation (I believe the original complaint was something like that). It's just that it's not as simple as every cell phone call damaging every Fluke 87-5. Dave test seemed more extreme than yours (closer and longer duration, from what I gathered from your statements), yet didn't have the same result.

Personally I will stick with Dave's public advice ,
DO NOT try it at all ..   Currently there is no any written warranty plan, to cover the repair of an such event.

There is a written warranty statement (either included with the manual or on a separate piece of paper). Unless it specifically excludes cell phones, it should cover it. It would be seriously damaging to Fluke's reputation if it didn't. But I agree not to tempt faith. The point has been made and I'm sure Fluke will take note of Dave's video. Not much point in bricking more meters.

[Kiriakos-GR]

I am very happy that we agree by taking in consideration the current solid proofs .

For a minute my mind traveled at our known flag wars , small debates that involves teasing and bragging,
about favorite products and brands , something truly common in all forums .

Thanks for clearing up the smoke    


Ok , no more nags ,  lets see the bright side ..
I just download the EEVblog #112 video in HD 720P , and recorded it on DVD .
And I got my packet ready to go ..

Dave you look good on the TV sets too        

  

  

[Kiriakos-GR]

I can eat the DVD disk if it please you , but I can not eat the download link .

[Simon]

I'm sure Dave won't mind, it's only a copy of what is freely available, there is something called common sense in the world - or is there ?

[alm]

You wouldn't think so if you've followed the recent development in copyright law (eg. secret ACTA negotiations) and copyright infringement lawsuits (especially in the US). But I don't think Dave subscribes to the MAFIAA's ideas, so I guess Kiriakos is safe .

In my opinion, this should be fine, and I'm sure Dave won't mind bringing it to Fluke's attention (since that was the main point of his blog). Not so sure about the letter of the law (without Dave's permission). I'm not aware if Dave attaches any license like creative commons to the videos, if not, that would mean all rights reserved by default in all signatories of the Berne convention.

[Kiriakos-GR]

What I like on shafri its all those spontaneous explosions  

Well , I made the DVD so to show it at my people at work tomorrow .
Other than my friends on the Internet, I have at work about eight electricians teasing me ,
that my super expensive multimeter become toasted .
And their cheapy's  could stand four GSM  phones transmitting at the same time !!

Fluke are On-line  , I am On-line  , The Greek Fluke are On-line ,
the forum are On-line , we all are On-line


And as an 42 years old child that I am , if I will have to defended my self in another level,
I would never use this forum as fortress , or foreign material , because I have all ready, my own.

And in Gods name , what is my major claim ?  Just an working multimeter ..

If any member of this forum , give an donation of 5$ ,
you can offer me one, with out the help, of any FLUKE .  

Or even better, I like to have the one that Dave has .... as tested      

[EEVblog]

I'm sure Dave won't mind, it's only a copy of what is freely available, there is something called common sense in the world - or is there ?

Correctamundo, I don't mind at all.
Good luck Kiriakos!

The Managing Director of Fluke Australia has been notified of the problem, and I asked that he pass it on the "powers-that-be".

We'll see what happens.

Dave.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Correctamundo, I don't mind at all.
Good luck Kiriakos!

The Managing Director of Fluke Australia has been notified of the problem, and I asked that he pass it on the "powers-that-be".

We'll see what happens.

Dave.

God Bless ,   Dave ...  I will send you an bottle of Tsipouro ( strong drink ) to drink it in my health !!   

And because I am aware that the computer systems  are part of any warranty system ,
if my serial   S/N    10690256  gets registered as fully eligible for warranty starting from April 8 2010,
I would become triple happy ..

 
After all this joy , its my time for a Tsipouro ..