EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds

[coppercone2]

your  not supposed to blow breakers. your not supposed to shut down an entire work bench and possibly room lights and smoke the joint up because of a 50 cent part. whoever designed this standard is a fucking moron

They were drafting an electrical safety standard. Not a convenience standard.

tripping a breaker is a safety issue. so is toxic smoke.

you got a double wammy with that piece of shit. its devoid of common sense.

[TheAmmoniacal]

Anyone able to find the manufacturer of this transformer? Someone should buy a pair, plug it into 230/240V outside with and without a fuse just to demonstrate the difference $0.2 makes. Photonicinduction style?

[coppercone2]

yea i wanna see this tested with and without a fuse on a proper 240v line thats low impedance with a bypassed breaker, feeder breaker only at 50 or 100A

[TheAmmoniacal]

yea i wanna see this tested with and without a fuse on a proper 240v line thats low impedance with a bypassed breaker, feeder breaker only at 50 or 100A

With the station placed next to your jar of rubbing alcohol-soaked tissues.

[Fungus]

Anyone able to find the manufacturer of this transformer? Someone should buy a pair, plug it into 230/240V outside with and without a fuse just to demonstrate the difference $0.2 makes. Photonicinduction style?

What we really need is another one of these and not pull the plug after six seconds. See what happens if it's left alone.

They were drafting an electrical safety standard. Not a convenience standard.

This thread has nothing to do with "standards", it's here because:

a) Weller should know better than to sell an unfused device that could easily end up in a different country in 2018 (eg. ebay has been around for over 20 years).

b) The letter they wrote was pathetic. Clearly written by some management type using third-hand information.

Anybody quoting standards at each other has clearly missed the main point: Weller knows better than to do this, but didn't.

[drussell]

whats going to short out at 450W and current limit itself? :wtf

parts are just gonna fail to a happy impedance like that? its probably gonna trip. What part is going to make plenty of smoke like a giant transformer winding dissipating 500W @ 0.3 ohms on a 12V rail?

You've really never seen anything fail in a way that was not a direct, low-impedance short?   

why did it blow the breaker if its supposed to fuse??

Wait...  What?  Who blew what breaker now?   

[TheDane]

Anyone able to find the manufacturer of this transformer? Someone should buy a pair, plug it into 230/240V outside with and without a fuse just to demonstrate the difference $0.2 makes. Photonicinduction style?

Anyone able to find the responsible manager(s)? Someone should fire up that board instead.

[Fungus]

PS: Does anybody know why these things even use old iron transformers instead of switch-mode supplies?

It's just a simple 12V heating element (or 24V, or whatever).

[drussell]

a) Weller should know better than to sell an unfused device that could easily end up in a different country in 2018 (eg. ebay has been around for over 20 years).

Wait, you're saying that all electronics, appliances, etc. should be built to some mythical worldwide standard that covers all situations, all regulations in all jurisdictions?

[drussell]

PS: Does anybody know why these things even use old iron transformers instead of switch-mode supplies?

It's just a simple 12V heating element (or 24V, or whatever).

I think you answered your own question. 

Personally, I would much prefer the simple, reliable transformer in such a device rather than some silly switching supply.

[Mr. Scram]

PS: Does anybody know why these things even use old iron transformers instead of switch-mode supplies?

It's just a simple 12V heating element (or 24V, or whatever).

Dave mentioned it in the original video. Something to do with switchers not liking the high current on and off switching of a heating element.

[Fungus]

Wait, you're saying that all electronics, appliances, etc. should be built to some mythical worldwide standard that covers all situations, all regulations in all jurisdictions?

It only takes a $0.10 fuse... 

[Fungus]

Dave mentioned it in the original video. Something to do with switchers not liking the high current on and off switching of a heating element.

It's only 60W or so.

I find it hard to believe that manufacturing/shipping something with a heavy iron transformer costs less than a decent filter capacitor.

Edit: Maybe there's a video in this for Dave. 

[kosine]

There's no such thing as "proper "tool grade" PA6" - it's just marketing noise.

PA6 is softer and weaker than PA66, and melts at a much lower temperature. Typically 200-220C versus 250-280C. Glass-filled versions are better, but harder to mould and quite abrasive on the tooling.

Main reason for using PA6 instead of PA66 is the cost. It's easier mould and resin prices have increased enormously in the last couple of years due to supply issues. PA6 is the cheaper option, hence its prevalence. Both will burn nicely if they get hot enough. (Fire retardant plastics are very expensive and little used.)

[TheDane]

Dave mentioned it in the original video. Something to do with switchers not liking the high current on and off switching of a heating element.

It's only 60W or so.

I find it hard to believe that manufacturing/shipping something with a heavy iron transformer costs less than a decent filter capacitor.

Must be isolated from mains - expensive
More components to fail - warranty expenses
- every sub-cent apparently counts, I guess this is why a transformer is used.

Corp'ies - dead entities, no guilt or remorse. Will kill you at any chance. Go after management, just like the walking dead - only a head shot counts 

[drussell]

a) Weller should know better than to sell an unfused device that could easily end up in a different country in 2018 (eg. ebay has been around for over 20 years).

It only takes a $0.10 fuse... 

There are a hundred other ways for a typical device to fail that a simple fuse won't magically solve.  In most countries it is technically illegal to plug an incorrectly certified, out-of-region device into the mains.  Certainly if it does burn down your lab and your insurance company finds out you were using non-conforming electrical devices that you imported from some other jurisdiction, they're not going to pay your claim.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm surprised that this station doesn't have a primary fuse and would put one there if I were designing it, but the exaggerated claims about being death-trap level junk because it doesn't have a primary fuse are unfounded.

There are other, far sketchier devices out there.  Many of them are even legitimately tested and certified. 

[Fungus]

There are other, far sketchier devices out there.  Many of them are even legitimately tested and certified. 

Make a list. We can start on those after we finish with this one.

[mikeselectricstuff]

AFAIK safety standards only address fire, so it can probably put out as much smoke as it likes as long as it doesn't set something on fire, wouldn't surprise me if it didn't even mention toxic fumes.

[Fungus]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm surprised that this station doesn't have a primary fuse and would put one there if I were designing it, but the exaggerated claims about being death-trap level junk because it doesn't have a primary fuse are unfounded.

The full experiment hasn't been done yet.

We only have a single preliminary experiment that was terminated before conclusions could be drawn.

[Fungus]

Must be isolated from mains - expensive

You think switch mode supplies aren't isolated from mains?

- every sub-cent apparently counts, I guess this is why a transformer is used.

Cost of copper. Cost of iron cores. Cost of shipping them based on weight. It all adds up.

[Mr. Scram]

You think switch mode supplies aren't isolated from mains?

Cost of copper. Cost of iron cores. Cost of shipping them based on weight. It all adds up.

What makes you think the people working on cost optimisation in these huge firms haven't thought of that?

[Fungus]

You think switch mode supplies aren't isolated from mains?

Cost of copper. Cost of iron cores. Cost of shipping them based on weight. It all adds up.

What makes you think the people working on cost optimisation in these huge firms haven't thought of that?

Maybe their customers are old-fashioned and think that heavy iron power supply = quality/reliability.

(there's already a few examples of that in this thread)

[David Hess]

None of the hand held line voltage soldering tools have fuses and all are compliant to the Australian standards and have Australian electrical approval.

I know from personal experience that the 120 volt AC line voltage soldering pencils fail by having the heater go open when 240 volts AC is applied.  They are safe but expensively fragile.

[zucca]

Louis Rossmann joined in the rant... check his YT channel. 

[eugenenine]

Your home stereo, wall warts, clock radio etc. consumer electronics all require a primary fuse of some sort in the power transformer.
Seeing that fuse on Hakko and other Weller products, Metcal etc. is common sense - but too bad the politics of a fuse are at play.

I have opened a lot of wall warts and small electronics (clock radio, etc) and very few have a fuse, it is not a requirement.