Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 90309 times)

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Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #300 on: December 21, 2018, 08:27:59 am »
I was trying to think of another transformer based device that was sold without a mains fuse....
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #301 on: December 21, 2018, 09:24:05 am »
before Dave's shocking discovery, I trusted the Weller name.  8)
having seen it, in electronics magazines for yrs. as a sign of safety , reliability & quality used by the professionals.
sad to see this is no longer true!  :'(


Don't throw in the towel yet just because of lack of correct value and type of fusing you can fit yourself,
I'm still buying re "reliability & quality used by the professionals"
i.e. their solder stations and tips have been great.

But the 'safety' thing is now up to the end user, and has been for a while on a lot of gear,
I fitted primary and secondary fuses on a Weller WTCPN station ages ago, because it wasn't obvious to me what will happen if there's a short or fault somewhere.

I assumed an internal transformer fuse of sorts, but that's a one way ride and a dead transformer if the issue has an external cause.
 
So between the fuses and or RCD popping, it's a good punt that magic smoke, flames and fumes are less likely  :phew:

Weller should do better damage control, now that they are sprung,
Hakko and others have their coffers wide open ready to rock  :popcorn:

What kind of protections do the competition and KnockoffsRus Inc. have in their gear?  :-// 

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #302 on: December 21, 2018, 10:02:54 am »
Would a fuse have saved it?

Yes.

Remember that fuses for the wrong voltage tend to be twice the rated current of what they should be.

Voltage doesn't enter into it. The fuse would be matched to the wire in the transformer.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:12:02 am by Fungus »
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #303 on: December 21, 2018, 10:35:17 am »
Luckily, Daniel and other kind people from KS are extremely helpful, but that's only in US. I've heard news from India and Saudi Arabia that the service there are not nearly as good as it is in the US. So it's a YMMV thing.

In Germany Keysight support is very good as well. Once I discovered a triggering bug for my DSO-X 3012A and they could reproduce the problem and fixed it with a firmware update (but needed a few months for the regular next firmware). But maybe this was the headquarter support, can't remember.
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Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #304 on: December 21, 2018, 10:36:54 am »
Also, at 220v instead of 120v, even ignoring core saturation, it will draw twice the current, at least for a while. The fuse should die rather quickly with twice the current draw, while a circuit breaker won't trip at all, until the unit draws more than the breaker's rated current fow a while. That means a lot more time overheating, release smoke, and a lot more chances for it to set into fire.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #305 on: December 21, 2018, 11:21:50 am »
keep in mind chinese stuff has other problems, like those hot air stations that the handle actually catches on fire. bad plastics/thermal design
 

Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #306 on: December 21, 2018, 11:39:49 am »
keep in mind chinese stuff has other problems, like those hot air stations that the handle actually catches on fire. bad plastics/thermal design

Lost all ground connection(s) as the wire was too thin and acted as a fuse, or worse - grounding was never implemented in the first place.

The list of bad examples keeps getting longer and longer.  :--
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #307 on: December 21, 2018, 12:57:38 pm »
Anyway that smoke out from the Weller could have triggerd a smoke detector... you know what can happen next.
I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)

More than that, in a commercial environment it could cost you thousands of dollars for a fire brigade attendance, the adjoining businesses would also be required to evacuate the building losing time and money as well and no doubt giving you a bad reputation with the neighbours, and for what?, the lack a ten cent fuse.   :o ::)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1160-weller-responds/msg2048764/#msg2048764
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/pull-in-case-of-fire!/msg707589/#msg707589

So its somehow Weller's fault if someone overreacts?

Years ago I got pages to replace a terminal in a dispatch center the next town over.  When I arrived the monitor wasn't there and when I asked where it was the dispatcher said he tossed it out the back door as it was putting out smoke.  So I put the replacement in place and picked up the old one from out back, tossed it in the truck and went home and back to bed.

He didn't over-react, just tossed it so he didn't have to smell the smoke.  Imagine if everyone over-reacted and called the fire department every time an iphone battery went up in smoke.

The dispatcher did say he was tempted to tone out the fire department which shared the building since it would have been humorous to call the fire department for a fire in the fire department :)
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #308 on: December 21, 2018, 01:17:22 pm »
Anyway that smoke out from the Weller could have triggerd a smoke detector... you know what can happen next.
I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)

More than that, in a commercial environment it could cost you thousands of dollars for a fire brigade attendance, the adjoining businesses would also be required to evacuate the building losing time and money as well and no doubt giving you a bad reputation with the neighbours, and for what?, the lack a ten cent fuse.   :o ::)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1160-weller-responds/msg2048764/#msg2048764
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/pull-in-case-of-fire!/msg707589/#msg707589

So its somehow Weller's fault if someone overreacts?

Years ago I got pages to replace a terminal in a dispatch center the next town over.  When I arrived the monitor wasn't there and when I asked where it was the dispatcher said he tossed it out the back door as it was putting out smoke.  So I put the replacement in place and picked up the old one from out back, tossed it in the truck and went home and back to bed.

He didn't over-react, just tossed it so he didn't have to smell the smoke.  Imagine if everyone over-reacted and called the fire department every time an iphone battery went up in smoke.

The dispatcher did say he was tempted to tone out the fire department which shared the building since it would have been humorous to call the fire department for a fire in the fire department :)

i imagine if people were not bravado and actually recognized the hazard it might be fixed better because of all the bad PR from fire departments  ::)
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #309 on: December 21, 2018, 01:45:57 pm »
Would a fuse have saved it?

Yes.

Can you please show your data proving this?  ;)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #310 on: December 21, 2018, 01:58:40 pm »
Can you please show your data proving this?  ;)

You're asking for data showing that fuses work?  :scared:

 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #311 on: December 21, 2018, 02:07:33 pm »
You're asking for data showing that fuses work?  :scared:

Yes...  Data that shows that in this case, with the fuse that would be fitted by Weller, that is large enough that it would not cause nuisance fuse opens under normal operation in the long term at the usual 110-130 volts you see in North America, would always protect the transformer and not allow any smoke to escape when powered from 220-250 volts 50 Hz.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 02:11:18 pm by drussell »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #312 on: December 21, 2018, 02:09:53 pm »
they do it for the high end customer
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #313 on: December 21, 2018, 02:12:49 pm »
they do it for the high end customer

Irrelevant.  We are talking about this specific model.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #314 on: December 21, 2018, 02:14:09 pm »
you don't know how cost reduction works in a corporate setting do you?

typically they have a A team, but its like the A-team from breaking bad.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 02:15:46 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #315 on: December 21, 2018, 02:17:11 pm »
you don't know how cost reduction works in a corporate setting do you?

I don't understand your point.  Various different models of various products often have different feature sets, even within closely related families.  This is unrelated to whether any one particular model has an input fuse or not.  Decisions like these are not always purely economic, either.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #316 on: December 21, 2018, 02:18:13 pm »
yea right
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #317 on: December 21, 2018, 02:27:19 pm »
... the fuse that would be fitted by Weller, that is large enough that it would not cause nuisance fuse opens under normal operation in the long term at the usual 110-130 volts you see in North America

Why on earth would it do that if it's rated the same as the wire in the transformer?

You seem to be fixated on voltage when the problem (and solution) is expressed in amps.

(magnetic field strengths are proportional to amps, not volts)

 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #318 on: December 21, 2018, 02:34:15 pm »
FWIW, I looked at my Weller WSD81, with the intent of adding a line fuse to it, and found that it already had one.  Has one of the IEC power inlets with the little slide-out drawer for fuse access.

I guess that fuse only gets omitted on the "cheaper" models?
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #319 on: December 21, 2018, 02:37:35 pm »
So you had better luck with cheapo stuff?

I have a Quick 957DW that has been serving me since 2014, and a Owon VDS3102L since 2014, though I don't use it that often. It's used as a portable USB scope for field works.
I also have an Analog Discovery since the same time, and it's been used occasionally on MCU projects. It's still working fine.
Also on my list is a Uni-T insulation meter. It blew up a Fluke and survived (purely my fault). I use it for testing PSUs I made.

And none of them run chips below their rated minimum operating voltage, and we can't take that as granted.

There's a distinction between electronic equipment and electro-mechanical equipment which soldering stations fall into. You have consumable tips and tip changes involved in stations you don't have in say a frequency counter. So you can probably get a decent Chinese bench meter as there isn't the constant wear and tear like my Edsyn solder sucker gets. No vacuum pumps, seals and such that rely on higher quality materials. Weller soldering tips hold up extremely well and the station itself has been excellent. I'd like to see Chinese tips that hold up as well, they may be out there but I'm not testing that stuff. All I know is when years were lean and I was using Chinese tips they weren't close to Weller's. They were bulky too boot and got hot in your hand, an XMPS Weller handle is a delight to use, as are their tweezers.

I'm not sure what the "below their rated" voltage remark is about, are you saying Weller does that?
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #320 on: December 21, 2018, 02:39:32 pm »
Thats not what I said.  It performed just as the UL test said, it didn't burn down his house.

I don't argue that UL was performed well and a lot of products are UL conform.
I am just saying, a fuse is much better than an UL melting approved and specified procedure.

I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)

well when I was living there in US, in the one of my friend house this:



showed up in front of his home. My friend had to sayto them "sorry,  it was just a toaster". They were not happy and replied:" Next time you pay".
Since I love to cook, I often triggered the smoke alarm with wine or alcohol vaporated in a pan. I was surprised why no firetruck were showing up in my case.
Then I discover there was a faulty in the fire alarm sistem and my home was not radio connected with the firefighter station.

I assumed then all US fire alarm system should trigger a fire fighter truck close to the home.
Otherwise a smoke detector is there just for a beep-beep?



I am not an expert but is seems not enough for me. In my home I want the fire fighter running at full speed to my address in case of fire.
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #321 on: December 21, 2018, 02:40:06 pm »
FWIW, I looked at my Weller WSD81, with the intent of adding a line fuse to it, and found that it already had one.  Has one of the IEC power inlets with the little slide-out drawer for fuse access.

I guess that fuse only gets omitted on the "cheaper" models?

It looks that way, I have the same fuse. So how much was that station?
 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #322 on: December 21, 2018, 03:02:12 pm »
It looks that way, I have the same fuse. So how much was that station?

It appears to be discontinued now, but I got mine at a surplus auction so no idea about original retail price...
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Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #323 on: December 21, 2018, 03:11:41 pm »
Just a normal Chinese day where, they make formula that kills babies, chargers and power supplys that catch your house on fire, memory devices which do not come near the advertised size. And so on and so on.
Saw a programme from the UK, that may containers from China were seized at port because of the laptop chargers not meeting safety standards. One of the reasons was fire.

As far as the fuse blowing out of nuisance, I guess you have never heard of time delay fuses or resettable PTC's.

Nothing to get on about...

I forgot, multimeters with ridiculous CAT ratings, which will short out with HV and possibly explode/kill you and any nearby observers.
And as Big Clive has demonstrated, heated shower heads with live mains on the elements.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 03:22:02 pm by Quarlo Klobrigney »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #324 on: December 21, 2018, 03:37:53 pm »
As far as the fuse blowing out of nuisance, I guess you have never heard of time delay fuses or resettable PTC's.

Not needed. Weller makes 110V soldering irons with fuses and nobody seems to be reporting that they're constantly blowing.

 


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