Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 86818 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #350 on: December 21, 2018, 09:42:37 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?
To save you from a cooked transformer when you make bonehead mistakes, obviously.
 

Offline glarsson

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 807
  • Country: se
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #351 on: December 21, 2018, 09:42:47 pm »
I have plenty of transformers around here that are intended to run on 120V but will work fine with a 240V input.
Why would Weller, a company saving money by omitting fuses, add extra iron in the transformer? That small transformer probably have just enough iron to survive at 120 volts.
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #352 on: December 21, 2018, 09:44:42 pm »
safety standard that should be deprecated.
Why?
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #353 on: December 21, 2018, 09:46:13 pm »
... and it shows how Weller values its customers.
Maybe Weller think better of you that you won't go sticking thing where you shouldn't. But if you want to avoid embarrassing smoke then it seems like you can buy their higher model.
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #354 on: December 21, 2018, 09:52:52 pm »
You can blow up stuff with 1W of power with the right conditions.
...
1W setting things on fire.

I really hate when I leave my burning laser pointed at sticks of dynamite. That illustrated your point marvelously.  :palm:
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #355 on: December 21, 2018, 09:56:47 pm »
You'd have to short the secondary of the 120VAC transformer and see what the primary current rises to, and wait for the house to burn down.
If I recall, the secondary was fused.


. The magnet wire, bobbin, end covers are plastics and will burn.
Can you substantiate that?
 

Offline glarsson

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 807
  • Country: se
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #356 on: December 21, 2018, 10:17:39 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?
To save you from a cooked transformer when you make bonehead mistakes, obviously.
What mistake did they who wrote about the incoming 240 volt on their 120 volt service do? You don't have to take your Weller to Australia to make this happen.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14439
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #357 on: December 21, 2018, 10:40:42 pm »
You can blow up stuff with 1W of power with the right conditions.
...
1W setting things on fire.

I really hate when I leave my burning laser pointed at sticks of dynamite. That illustrated your point marvelously.  :palm:

Which point was that?

I accidentally set something on fire with a diode laser years ago. It sounds silly now but at the time a laser capable of starting fires generally meant 3 phase power and water cooling. You wouldn't typically expect something the size of a deck of cards running off some C batteries to do that, but now it's nothing unusual.
 

Offline sibeen

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #358 on: December 21, 2018, 11:53:35 pm »
Since nobody has actually tested anything yet on this particular unit and provided any data, everything thus far is just pure speculation.  :popcorn:

Yes the unit was tested and it was fairly obvious that the current drawn by the transformer exceeded the current carrying capability of the primary winding. This was evident by the amount of smoke released (reported - but by a source some here will trust), and the damage that was viewed after the event. A fuse, sized to protect the primary winding, will have prevented this.

I find it difficult to believe that many here don't get that basic point.
 
The following users thanked this post: fsr

Offline MrMobodies

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 951
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #359 on: December 21, 2018, 11:56:22 pm »
There is an saying in England back over 20 - 30 years ago and it was, "Safety doesn't sell". Now they plaster themselves up with safety approvals and certificates and safety words but only up to a compliance on what they can get away with.
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #360 on: December 22, 2018, 01:02:29 am »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?
To save you from a cooked transformer when you make bonehead mistakes, obviously.
What mistake did they who wrote about the incoming 240 volt on their 120 volt service do? You don't have to take your Weller to Australia to make this happen.

So what do you have to do?
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #361 on: December 22, 2018, 01:06:49 am »
You can blow up stuff with 1W of power with the right conditions.
...
1W setting things on fire.

I really hate when I leave my burning laser pointed at sticks of dynamite. That illustrated your point marvelously.  :palm:

Which point was that?

I accidentally set something on fire with a diode laser years ago. It sounds silly now but at the time a laser capable of starting fires generally meant 3 phase power and water cooling. You wouldn't typically expect something the size of a deck of cards running off some C batteries to do that, but now it's nothing unusual.

I think the point was that the small amounts of power can damage stuff. I think that is pretty evident to everybody. I could build a Rube Goldberg to do whatever you like. It doesn't mean that it's realistic.
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 909
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #362 on: December 22, 2018, 01:09:38 am »
it was fairly obvious that the current drawn by the transformer exceeded the current carrying capability of the primary winding.

I think it's pretty obvious that the winding WAS carrying the current. Who knows, maybe if you plug it back in , it'll carry it a little longer.

A fuse, sized to protect the primary winding, will have prevented this.

I find it difficult to believe that many here don't get that basic point.
I think you're confused because nobody is denying that point.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 32781
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #363 on: December 22, 2018, 05:26:40 am »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?
Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?

Except that in this case even the $20 clone cheapies have the fuse. Weller completely fails at competing if nothing else.

The interesting question is why Weller deliberately chose to do this on at least two models.
They have the IEC fuse holder BOM item in other products, so it seems like a no-brainer to re-use it and do the basics of covering your corporate arse.
Saving cost? If that was their goal, why is there no less than three protection devices on the secondary? You could easily get away with one.
 
The following users thanked this post: TheDane

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5209
  • Country: us
  • $
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #364 on: December 22, 2018, 07:35:34 am »
maybe the fuse is on the edge of the schematic and the cost-cutting team figured out how to hold it just right during the 'glance approval'.\

depends on how their assembly line is setup, potentially it could be manufacturing cost if there is like a work station where one guy does some parts and another guy later does the other parts.

also a chassis mod like a drilling operation is alot of exposure and time (make the guy a marking jig, mark, drill, drill again (enlarge), debur, make sure you did not mess up the chassis, buy a drill for the worker, get the worker keys so he can tighten the fuse holder insert, have him tighten it without scuffing the chassis, insert fuse, tighten, green loctite maybe saves a second). Do their other models have a fuse holder thats externally accessible?

They might be able to ask the manufacturer but it looks to be plastic so you need to do shop work on it.. even so they sometimes don't like to change cad drawings and stuff.

After a line is 'running smooth' for a while I expect they don't like changing anything because its a fine tuned money making machine at that point. They want to remove steps more then anything. In certain setups they want the most zombie like worker possible. And they can pay less because its less skilled then the guy next to him doing two more steps. "we don't need such a high skill level for this job (the other guy that does the higher end station with the drilling step for instance)'. Having two concerent processes of different 'quality' might allow them to make a mask to pay people less.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 07:47:44 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline fsr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: ar
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #365 on: December 22, 2018, 12:38:26 pm »
Well, the fuse isn't there, so they decided to not use one in the desing phase. You can put a fuse on the pcb, or even hanging from the transformer's post, or you can order a transformer with a built-in fuse or the power connector at the back of the soldering station could have a fuse holder. But they decided to not put one there, to what? Save some pocket change per unit? How did that played out now with the electronics community talking about the missing fuse?
 

Offline MrMobodies

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 951
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #366 on: December 22, 2018, 12:53:10 pm »
Well, the fuse isn't there, so they decided to not use one in the desing phase. You can put a fuse on the pcb, or even hanging from the transformer's post, or you can order a transformer with a built-in fuse or the power connector at the back of the soldering station could have a fuse holder. But they decided to not put one there, to what? Save some pocket change per unit? How did that played out now with the electronics community talking about the missing fuse?

They'll have to do that but for a well known a big brand name product.
Alter it for safety.

The cost savings of pocket change by not putting in a fuse can be paid back in the form of fines from visits from your local Fire and Rescue when they turn up all at your expense. I see at the end of the video they made double digits.
 

Offline fsr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 169
  • Country: ar
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #367 on: December 22, 2018, 04:48:43 pm »
Well, the fuse isn't there, so they decided to not use one in the desing phase. You can put a fuse on the pcb, or even hanging from the transformer's post, or you can order a transformer with a built-in fuse or the power connector at the back of the soldering station could have a fuse holder. But they decided to not put one there, to what? Save some pocket change per unit? How did that played out now with the electronics community talking about the missing fuse?

They'll have to do that but for a well known a big brand name product.
Alter it for safety.

The cost savings of pocket change by not putting in a fuse can be paid back in the form of fines from visits from your local Fire and Rescue when they turn up all at your expense. I see at the end of the video they made double digits.
Of course, i meant that weller should have done that at the design phase.
Just to think about for all the stuff that is permanently connected to power sockets... Imagine if everyone wanted to be on the cheap and removed the fuse!
And what if this thing decides to fail when no one is watching? Someone cold even forget to turn it off before leaving!
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12164
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #368 on: December 22, 2018, 04:55:29 pm »
Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?
Because they are not required by law and it is cheaper to not include them.

MUCH, cheaper.

(unlike a $0.10 fuse on a $100 piece of equipment).
 

Online Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8813
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #369 on: December 22, 2018, 07:11:57 pm »
For the soldering station they may assume that it is used under supervision only, as it would be a fire danger anyway of used unattended. So legally they may get away with not have a fuse.

Still it would be common sense to use a safe transformer with a thermal cut out. These are commonly used even in price sensitive products - though these may be used unattended.  The most logical way to add protection would be ordering transformers that include the thermal fuse. It is a few cents more, but worth it. They could safe those few cents by leaving out the poly-fuse on the secondary.

An IEC connector with fuse may need a modified case.
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1576
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #370 on: December 22, 2018, 10:02:16 pm »
Greed and stupidity belong to the largest renewable resources available to mankind.
In this case here to risk that your premium brand is caught pants down for a cost advantage of some ten €cents.

The attempts of the vice president of marketing to waffle himself out of this discussion makes them look even more incompetent.
Weller a premium brand with premium prices ?! No mains fuse and no overtemp protection ?! Think twice.  :palm:


 

Offline Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2404
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #371 on: December 22, 2018, 10:57:26 pm »
The interesting question is why Weller deliberately chose to do this on at least two models.
They have the IEC fuse holder BOM item in other products, so it seems like a no-brainer to re-use it and do the basics of covering your corporate arse.

Just going to put it out there as nobody else has: MTBF.

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6413
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #372 on: December 23, 2018, 03:37:09 am »
A very useful and cheap addition to a soldering setup would be a countdown timer as are used on bathroom fans. They are mandatory in hot tubs and usually go up to a maximum of 60 or 90 minutes. Its totally worth the inconvenience of turning a knob to reset the timer every hour or so if there is even the smallest chance you might suddenly have to go and do something and might forget that your iron is on.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Richard Crowley

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6413
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #373 on: December 23, 2018, 03:40:41 am »
I really enjoyed the hilarious Microchip videos they made in response to Dave's review of the PICkit3 (#39 ) and its sequel. Maybe Weller could ...
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
The following users thanked this post: Richard Crowley, TheDane, MrMobodies

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12720
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #374 on: December 23, 2018, 04:35:18 am »
Leaving out the primary side fuse could just represent a decision that fuses blown from otherwise harmless power surges are a problem.  A transformer which included a primary side fusible link would have been a particularly poor choice.  But it does not explain not using a slow primary side fuse and series instead of shunt protection on the secondary.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf