Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 86813 times)

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Online floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #475 on: December 28, 2018, 08:27:46 pm »
Both IEC 61558 and UL 1585 wrap the transformer in tissue/cheesecloth for the overload, heating, short-circuit (fire) tests, with 16A or 20A mains feed.

Confusion with the Class 2 "doorbell" transformers seems to also plague the safety standard.
These are energy-limited output by impedance or external secondary fusing, used for doorbells, zone valves etc.
Condo fire after a cable staple shorted out the 24VAC wiring and I found the transformer had improper secondary fusing. I had to design a replacement panel for that.

I've reached out to IEC and will see if the technical committee is approachable, to possibly patch the holes in the standards.

Weller needs to patch up their ethics or explain their hypocrisy- the WS81 and WD1 stations are the same power level and have a mains fuse.
 
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Online floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #476 on: December 28, 2018, 08:33:56 pm »
When I was young, we didn't need no "fancy" soldering sticks. :-// Heat came in 4 models. The extreme heavy duty, the heavy duty, the medium and the last for fine 0402 work.
If you lost heat change the tank, or plug it in. If you lost a tip, just make one up out of a #00 round copper buss bar, #10 or #12 wire. She'll be good as new.

The good old 8200 soldering gun makes a few kV at the tip when you switch the trigger off! ZZzzzzt.
I killed a lot of solid-state electronics before realizing that one. The soldering gun is not earth-grounded and uses that solenoid-style transformer with tons of leakage inductance.
Never use one on modern electronics. A-OK for vacuum tube stuff  ;)
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #477 on: December 28, 2018, 10:38:41 pm »
When I was young, we didn't need no "fancy" soldering sticks. :-// Heat came in 4 models. The extreme heavy duty, the heavy duty, the medium and the last for fine 0402 work.
If you lost heat change the tank, or plug it in. If you lost a tip, just make one up out of a #00 round copper buss bar, #10 or #12 wire. She'll be good as new.

The good old 8200 soldering gun makes a few kV at the tip when you switch the trigger off! ZZzzzzt.
I killed a lot of solid-state electronics before realizing that one. The soldering gun is not earth-grounded and uses that solenoid-style transformer with tons of leakage inductance.
Never use one on modern electronics. A-OK for vacuum tube stuff  ;)

I'll bet there was some FUSE wire in the switchboard just in case one of those "fancy free" 4  -pick a duty-  models  :-+  went south on a job,
or the cat or dog nibbled on the power cord   :o

;D

----------------------------

To address earlier comment/s, unless the Weller transformer is an isolation welding class type with a 100% Duty Cycle on a dead short without too much temperature rise,
then it can't possibly be considered a 'Safety Transformer'

i.e. toast may/will happen eventually
and or the Fire Truck rocks up and a lecture comes your way after the water hoses and axes get packed away

Secondary fuse values F or T types aren't that difficult to work out,
it's every EE/manufacturers task to do that

and it's been done like many many many times before over the decades and documented,
so no mystery Dead Tech ancient scrolls to search for, buried in the ruins of Silicone Valley...   :popcorn:

 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #478 on: December 28, 2018, 11:22:11 pm »
Those old Weller guns also made a pretty good degaussing coil for working on color TV sets, too.
"My favorite programming language is...SOLDER!"--Robert A. Pease
 

Offline ruffy91

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #479 on: December 28, 2018, 11:35:57 pm »
All those security standards assume a fault either in the transformer itself or downstream!
There is no way to protect the transformer of all upstream failure cases.
Just imagine they added a fuse. What should the voltage rating of the fuse be? 150V, 300V, 1kV? Also what should the interruption capability be, a few dozen ampere, 25kA? All those choices assume some upstream components (for example a defined maximum voltage, the maximum current the upstream breaker allows for a short time etc. everything defined in countless standards.)

All those assumptions do not apply when the device is connected to the wrong grid.

Should it also withstand to be connected to 15kV 16 2/3 Hz Bahnstrom and fail safely?

So you should search for the standard applied to the wiring which allowed 240V on a 120V device in the first place.
IMHO the connector is the root of all evil in this case.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #480 on: December 29, 2018, 12:08:26 am »
As with companies like Weller, they sell units that are barely changing for many years, despite technology evolved a lot (and recent amazing chinese soldering stations dave reviewed prove that), so Weller still have sales just because of their past reliability and reputation.
Link?

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #481 on: December 29, 2018, 12:36:08 am »
@ 10:32



There's the fuse.
 
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Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #482 on: December 29, 2018, 02:07:52 am »
All those security standards assume a fault either in the transformer itself or downstream!
There is no way to protect the transformer of all upstream failure cases.
Just imagine they added a fuse. What should the voltage rating of the fuse be? 150V, 300V, 1kV? Also what should the interruption capability be, a few dozen ampere, 25kA? All those choices assume some upstream components (for example a defined maximum voltage, the maximum current the upstream breaker allows for a short time etc. everything defined in countless standards.)

All those assumptions do not apply when the device is connected to the wrong grid.

Should it also withstand to be connected to 15kV 16 2/3 Hz Bahnstrom and fail safely?

So you should search for the standard applied to the wiring which allowed 240V on a 120V device in the first place.
IMHO the connector is the root of all evil in this case.
It's a 120v 70w soldering station. Probably a 0.8A fuse would be ok. Voltage rating is not a problem, because those IEC connectors are for single phase, and 240v is the maximum woldwide, right?
Now, if you connect it to 240v, it's going to draw a lot more current. At least twice the current. It's just a matter of choosing the right fuse.
It's not the only way the transformer can fail. Hell, the transformer can be faulty from manufacturing, and overheat after some time in use. Just imagine what could happen if a whole batch of this soldering stations had a fault like that!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 02:10:24 am by fsr »
 

Online Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #483 on: December 29, 2018, 02:16:34 am »
I used one about 2 months ago because I forgot my coil at home and the customer was 50 miles away.. It worked a treat on an RCA CTC-9. A D550 though..
Quote from: N2IXK on Today at 19:22:11
Those old Weller guns also
made still make a pretty good degaussing coil for working on color TV sets, too.
Voltage does not flow, nor does it go.
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Offline orion242

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #484 on: December 29, 2018, 03:03:59 am »
Weller WES51 transformer is a different bird at 40VA. Previously a custom Tyco part, 4000 series 4000-01E07G827, Tyco 2-1611453-5, Class II UL1585. Get this from Tyco:
"Inherently Energy Limited Transformers - Class II transformers up to 50 VA are “Inherently Limited” which means that the transformer, if overloaded, will short itself out and fail safely, not requiring a fuse."  :-DD

Looking at IEC 61558 Transformer Safety, Part 15 on short-circuit testing and considering the WE1010 is almost twice the power 80-100VA would be a "non-inherently short-circuit proof transformer".

Both IEC 61558 and UL 1585 wrap the transformer in tissue/cheesecloth for the overload, heating, short-circuit (fire) tests, with 16A or 20A mains feed.

Confusion with the Class 2 "doorbell" transformers seems to also plague the safety standard.
These are energy-limited output by impedance or external secondary fusing, used for doorbells, zone valves etc.
Condo fire after a cable staple shorted out the 24VAC wiring and I found the transformer had improper secondary fusing. I had to design a replacement panel for that.

Thanks for some standards to look at.

I work in the class 2 world (<50vac <100va) and far as I recall NEC requires:  Under 100va low voltage cable can be used without any additional fusing, pretty loose regulations.  >100va requires fusing down to 100va per circuit or you fall outside of class 2.  At that point likely have to deal with things the same as 120vac mains wiring or close to.  Assuming there is some parity between feeding a listed device with a trany and including one in a product...

Seen many a class 2 trany with shorted secondary turn into a smoke bomb, never fire.  Seen them installed backwards by mistake as a step up.  That typically blows the living hell out of the end devices where the real fireworks show is.  Even in those cases, can't recall a trany fire, least none that didn't self extinguished when power was removed.  End devices...not spreading fire, at least in the cases I seen.  Stack flammable materials in the area, probably a bad day.  Soldering iron in a office space, not good.  Control systems on rated walls and concrete floors, usually not a building fire.

Closest thing in the US would be plugging this into a 240/277vac receptacle which is very different than 120v recp and unlikely in most residences.  Even in a lab setting, I assume these are rare and would clearly stand out.  Anyone even make a US 240v -> IEC cord?  NEMA 6-20P looks close to NEMA 5-20P but I'm guessing they cannot be interchanged.  So at least here, it seems it would take some real stupidity or a shared neutral circuit failure (as someone mentioned earlier) to bring on this fault.  The NEMA receptacles typically prevent this nonsense.  As bigclive calls it, a "death dapter" could certainly bypass NEMA designs, but that's still something that has to be a unicorn just thinking about the 240/277v recps I can think of.  That said NEMA far as I know, spells out different connections by voltage and current.  Little interconnection worries unless the install is borked or the end user goes out of their way.

So is a US vs international safety standard issue?  Does Weller sell this model in areas where 220/110v issue may really be a problem?  Or is it the IEC standard on the device that may allow for this?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 03:32:40 am by orion242 »
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #485 on: December 29, 2018, 03:32:04 am »
Closest thing in the US would be plugging this into a 240/277vac receptacle which is very different than 120v recp and unlikely in most residences.  Even in a lab setting, I assume these are rare and would clearly stand out.  Anyone even make a US 240v -> IEC cord?  NEMA 6-20P looks close to NEMA 5-20P but I'm guessing they cannot be interchanged.  So at least here, it seems it would take some real stupidity or a shared neutral circuit failure (as someone mentioned earlier) to bring on this fault.  The NEMA receptacles typically prevent this nonsense.  As bigclive calls it, a "death dapter" could certainly bypass NEMA designs, but that's still something that has to be a unicorn just thinking about the 240/277v recps I can think of.

So is a US vs international safety standard issue?  Does Weller sell this model in areas where 220/110v issue may really be a problem?

Here's a US 240V to IEC C13 power cord for you:
https://www.amazon.com/NEMA-6-20P-C13-Power-Cord/dp/B004WJNVH4

If your bench has both 120V and 240V outlets and you've got any 240V only kit with an IEC C14 inlet, then there's a real risk of a mishap if you ever disconnect multiple items to move them, clean behind them etc.   

If I had IEC C13 leads in a US dual voltage environment, I think I'd spray paint all the 240V C13 ends bright red!
 

Offline orion242

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #486 on: December 29, 2018, 03:34:52 am »
Closest thing in the US would be plugging this into a 240/277vac receptacle which is very different than 120v recp and unlikely in most residences.  Even in a lab setting, I assume these are rare and would clearly stand out.  Anyone even make a US 240v -> IEC cord?  NEMA 6-20P looks close to NEMA 5-20P but I'm guessing they cannot be interchanged.  So at least here, it seems it would take some real stupidity or a shared neutral circuit failure (as someone mentioned earlier) to bring on this fault.  The NEMA receptacles typically prevent this nonsense.  As bigclive calls it, a "death dapter" could certainly bypass NEMA designs, but that's still something that has to be a unicorn just thinking about the 240/277v recps I can think of.

So is a US vs international safety standard issue?  Does Weller sell this model in areas where 220/110v issue may really be a problem?

Here's a US 240V to IEC C13 power cord for you:
https://www.amazon.com/NEMA-6-20P-C13-Power-Cord/dp/B004WJNVH4

If your bench has both 120V and 240V outlets and you've got any 240V only kit with an IEC C14 inlet, then there's a real risk of a mishap if you ever disconnect multiple items to move them, clean behind them etc.   

If I had IEC C13 leads in a US dual voltage environment, I think I'd spray paint all the 240V C13 ends bright red!

That's not fitting a standard 120vac recp in the US.  It has the opposed blade which will not fit a standard 120vac 15A US recp.  The proper and closest equal are NEMA standards fittings I already quoted far as I can tell.  I assume there is a dimensional diff between them that makes them not interchangeable.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 03:39:57 am by orion242 »
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #487 on: December 29, 2018, 03:45:31 am »
Of course it wont fit a 120V NEMA receptacle.  However it is sold and used in the USA , will fit the IEC C14 inlet on the offending Weller  soldering station and any other 120V kit with a C14 inlet, so  presents a risk of applying 240V to 120V only equipment.

IMHO the use of IEC C14 inlets for 120V only equipment that cannot withstand 240V without permanent damage, should be prohibited.   
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 03:48:18 am by Ian.M »
 

Offline orion242

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #488 on: December 29, 2018, 03:50:20 am »
> IEC C14

Exactly.  IEC failure, safety standards, etc.

Seems IEC is a bit too standard or the safety standards don't reflect the potential issues properly.  Wax on, wax off with the mains fuse aside.

Pointing blame at weller for selling a US specific model then somehow it gets exported...its their fault the product is placed in a condition it was never designed for.  Bit overkill IMO.  Fuse is cheap enough, so it seems silly to omit.  If they sell it world wide, shame on them for not adding a fuse.  Again, what are the real safety standards in this case??

If its a US only product, the chances of this happening are extremely low IMO.  Even at that, a class 2 limited trany as far as I have seen will put on a spectacular smoke show without fire.  So where really is the failure that allows for this?  Why is the primary fuse a choice is my question.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 05:47:11 am by orion242 »
 

Online floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #489 on: December 29, 2018, 06:21:52 am »
> IEC C14

Exactly.  IEC failure, safety standards, etc.

Seems IEC is a bit too standard or the safety standards don't reflect the potential issues properly.  Wax on, wax off with the mains fuse aside.

Pointing blame at weller for selling a US specific model then somehow it gets exported...its their fault the product is placed in a condition it was never designed for.  Bit overkill IMO.  Fuse is cheap enough, so it seems silly to omit.  If they sell it world wide, shame on them for not adding a fuse.  Again, what are the real safety standards in this case??

If its a US only product, the chances of this happening are extremely low IMO.  Even at that, a class 2 limited trany as far as I have seen will put on a spectacular smoke show without fire.  So where really is the failure that allows for this?  Why is the primary fuse a choice is my question.

I have to wonder why IEC power cords are all different on one end- but not the other. What's the point really? You need a unique power cord for each country anyhow.

Transformers, as a component have two windings and the error is in putting the fuse after them, as Weller has done.
Either winding can fail partial or full short circuit. Turn #200 can short to turn #199 or to turn #1. In either winding. Or it can simply arc inside for a while. The heat generated is unpredictable, you don't know fault current, it could be 300W or 1500W. I have seen badly burnt power transformers, charred and blackened equipment. They don't always fail in a polite manner with the mains breaker tripping.

A Class 2 transformer protects the LOAD from overcurrents. Think of your doorbell wiring shorting with only the transformer's inherent current-limiting to stop the wiring from burning up. This is done with high primary impedance (OK to around 50VA) and higher power require a secondary fuse/circuit breaker - all to chiefly protect the load from fire, and give some overload protection to the transformer output. The transformer itself can still overheat or fail and needs a protective element at its input.

240V in to a 120V part is not "normal operation" so the safety standards could care less.
The failure is running a 120VAC station off 120VAC, with a failure of that power transformer- with no fuse there is no coverage other than the mains breaker.

There are at least four applicable safety standards and going down that rabbit hole is complicated here. Which one requires a fuse and which one bungled it, is a long dig.

Another mistake may be in the component (transformer) standard or the product (soldering iron station) standard being the place to call for a fuse. Each standard can assume the other's got it covered.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #490 on: December 29, 2018, 08:36:39 am »
I have to wonder why IEC power cords are all different on one end- but not the other.

It's so that manufacturers don't have to worry about making 12 different versions of their product. They put one standard plug, and you supply the cable. (paying close attention to voltages of course). I thought that was pretty obvious  ???
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #491 on: December 29, 2018, 02:24:35 pm »
I have to wonder why IEC power cords are all different on one end- but not the other.

It's so that manufacturers don't have to worry about making 12 different versions of their product. They put one standard plug, and you supply the cable. (paying close attention to voltages of course). I thought that was pretty obvious  ???

I think his point was, why bother with 12 different power cord versions - at least if the intent of the plug design is to prevent miss-connection, then the standard IEC bypasses that safety feature. But then, I do not know the real reason why the plug designs are different, if it was nothing more than chance.

It seems to me a standard connector as such should require the device to take all possible power supplies without fault.
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #492 on: December 29, 2018, 03:22:57 pm »
Yes, i also think that IEC connectors should only be used for equipments with PSUs that can be used worldwide. Otherwise, it would be a far better idea to have a different equipment-side connector for every voltage, or why not the cable going directly into the case? Specially in this case, as a soldering station will just sit on a bench all it's life, so it's not inconvenient to have a permanently attached cable.

Back in the day, all computer PSUs had a 220/110v switch, which caused some trouble, as it was common to have 220 to 110v transformers lying around (some equipment sold here was designed for 110v only at that time. Don't ask me why as we never had 110v mains).
Nowadays only 220v PSUs are sold. That probably has to do with a law from some years ago.

Still, no one asks weller to desing their stations to survive misconnections to 240v mains, but that doesn't means that it can release such a smoke screen if you do, because a lack of protection for the transformer's primary. Lets hope that they don't get a faulty batch of transformers that develops a fault on the primary side after some use.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 03:28:21 pm by fsr »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #493 on: December 29, 2018, 06:39:10 pm »
if the intent of the plug design is to prevent miss-connection
It's not. Like I said, the intent is to have a easily swappable cable. Power leads tend to break a lot.

But then, I do not know the real reason why the plug designs are different
same reason we drive on different sides of the road I guess.

a standard connector as such should require the device to take all possible power supplies
I guess in North America people just don't treat others like they're children, or stupid. They don't like nanny governments and like to take responsibility for themselves. After all, it's only 120V, so the worst case is you get a little tickle. If YOU use lethal voltage where you live, that's your problem. It's up to YOU not to kill yourself.

Barrel jacks have the same shape with many different voltages. Do we really need 50,000 different connectors for everything? (don't answer that)
 

Online floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #494 on: December 29, 2018, 07:01:04 pm »
I'm saying you already have a unique product build for each region. The power cord, power transformer, mains fuse is different, another bill-of-materials, so what to gain from the common C14 connector? I think it might even add cost.
Low cost stations just use a power cord+strain relief with no IEC receptacle.

IEC 60320 could have spec'd coloured keyways to prevent a 100/120vac to 240vac happening. Maybe they assumed there is a fuse to cover it.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #495 on: December 29, 2018, 11:32:24 pm »
@ 10:32



There's the fuse.


Yay! That's what we is talkin about :clap: :clap: 

and so-o-o easy to knock up another one Jerry Riggovitch style with component leg offcuts, and solder it in

or if the warranty is up, and now that the unit is open, consider soldering in a proper fuse holder

If companies like TooHungLoW can install one of the cheapest fuse arrangements as seen on EEVblog #596 "World's Cheapest Soldering Iron",   
why can't (won't) a reputable brand like Weller?   :-//

at the least solder a fuse link straight to the PCB that will blow or sizzle away to oblivion under most 120/240/440 volts fault conditions.
LOL that's as cheap as I can think of (at the moment ::)) to score bean counters more coke and casino money to blow   :D

I've seen this arrangement on primary and secondaries and it works.
Well quite a few transformer powered items with a 120/240 selector are still kicking many years later after being to hell and back a few times  >:D 
the fuse links still intact with no apparent sunburn anywhere or trannie rattle 

BTW: Does anyone in Australia sell/distribute fuse link wire in bulk lengths and various amperage ratings ? 
besides the common 8, 15 and 30 amp stuff for older electrical switchboards 

I've tried all the major electrical places, no go so far.
 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 11:35:29 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #496 on: December 30, 2018, 12:15:42 am »
There's nothing magical about tinned copper fuse wire.
See http://electricguru.in/page_view.php?id=29 for wire sizes.
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #497 on: December 30, 2018, 03:30:20 pm »

a standard connector as such should require the device to take all possible power supplies
I guess in North America people just don't treat others like they're children, or stupid. They don't like nanny governments and like to take responsibility for themselves. After all, it's only 120V, so the worst case is you get a little tickle. If YOU use lethal voltage where you live, that's your problem. It's up to YOU not to kill yourself.
Fallacy. Then explain to me how come US was the first to make brake lights mandatory if not to increase safety? How NEC now mandates AFCIs on new constructions if not to increase safety? How US was one of the earliest places to mandate GFCIs on wet areas if not to increase safety? How US adopted the PRND in automatic transmission if not to increase safety? The examples are too many to count, but certainly laws and regulations were created to minimize the possibility of hazard.

Also, 120V is more than enough to cause a cardiac arrest, not a tingle.

Barrel jacks have the same shape with many different voltages. Do we really need 50,000 different connectors for everything? (don't answer that)

Barrel jacks with different voltages and polarity are a cause for grief for many years now, but the only difference is that power is not in excess of 1000~2000W with the increased possibility of a fire or injury hazard.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #498 on: December 30, 2018, 08:17:31 pm »
Those are all sensible improvements.
But there are just as many examples that show you have some level of personal responsibility. For example, you can still stick your finger in an edison socket.

Also, 120V is more than enough to cause a cardiac arrest, not a tingle.
Maybe with sweaty hands and a weak heart.
 

Online floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #499 on: December 30, 2018, 10:57:48 pm »
Deleting that transformer fuse for North American models saved Weller 3 pennies!  Unbelievable  :palm:
 


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