Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 87009 times)

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Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #500 on: December 31, 2018, 12:38:00 am »
Also, 120V is more than enough to cause a cardiac arrest, not a tingle.
Maybe with sweaty hands and a weak heart.
But they do use ground fault interrupters in the US, right?
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #501 on: December 31, 2018, 03:21:38 am »
But they do use ground fault interrupters in the US, right?

US was one of the earliest places to mandate GFCIs on wet areas

GFCI = ground-fault circuit interrupter

I've only ever seen them in bathrooms though. Oh and the backyard.
 

Online Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #502 on: December 31, 2018, 10:37:36 am »
Bathrooms, hot tubs - spas, kitchens, outside outlets which are required at the front and rear of the home, the rear at an HVAC installation and must have a lockout at the distribution panel. Dishwashers & garbage disposals, yada yada yada.
Voltage does not flow, nor does it go.
“I do one thing at a time, I do it very well, and then I move on.”
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #503 on: December 31, 2018, 01:40:50 pm »
The examples are too many to count, but certainly laws and regulations were created to minimize the possibility of hazard.

Even more laws and regulations advance rent seeking under the guise of safety.
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #504 on: December 31, 2018, 01:56:25 pm »
But they do use ground fault interrupters in the US, right?

US was one of the earliest places to mandate GFCIs on wet areas

GFCI = ground-fault circuit interrupter

I've only ever seen them in bathrooms though. Oh and the backyard.
That's surprising. I wouldn't bet on the conditions and just protect every circuit with them. Better to be safe than sorry.
I don't mean thay they should be mandatory by law for any circuit, but i would install them anyways.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #505 on: December 31, 2018, 07:36:08 pm »
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #506 on: December 31, 2018, 08:13:22 pm »
"Weird and stupid laws, but in the books."

An epidemic problem throughout society these days. If you take a look at the latest IEE wiring regs, you'd think the Mad Hatter had been suffering a bout of OCD when he wrote them. The regulations for handling a live nuclear missile are simpler.  (I do not exaggerate!) I recall seeing two electricians arguing over simple job of feeding power to a shed, and eventually telling the owner that it couldn't be done within the regs. The owner was using a trailing extension, and wanted it replaced with a safer arrangement. Guess he didn't get his safer arrangement and is still probably using the extension.  |O

Even worse are the vehicle test (MoT) regulations, which started out as basic safety checks but have become equally insane.  In the States they don't have any equivalent, it being up to owners to maintain their vehicles, and they reckon that vehicle defects account for only a tiny percentage of accidents.

The MoT test may actually discourage people from maintaining their cars properly, because almost any vehicle can be declared unroadworthy for some obscure reason, and if you've spent a wad of cash on brakes or tyres in the last few months then you are going to feel a right idiot.  So, you don't. You wait until the certificate runs out before changing anything. Whereas in the USA there would be no disincentive to fixing it rightaway, so unless you were really hard-up you probably would. You wonder how many unsafe vehicles are on the UK roads for just this reason. As always, beware the Law of Unintended Consequences.
 

Online Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #507 on: January 01, 2019, 12:28:18 am »
I always do. It's lined with alfoil. :scared:

Quote from: timelessbeing on Today at 15:36:08
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
Voltage does not flow, nor does it go.
“I do one thing at a time, I do it very well, and then I move on.”
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #508 on: January 01, 2019, 01:19:33 am »
I always do. It's lined with alfoil. :scared:

Quote from: timelessbeing on Today at 15:36:08
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"


Make sure you hook it up to your wireless esd wrist strap
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #509 on: January 01, 2019, 10:13:05 am »


Deleting that transformer fuse for North American models saved Weller 3 pennies!  Unbelievable  :palm:



Let's do the math:

Minimum Order of 10,000 at .029 cents U.S., plus shipping, let's make it tidy and call it all up $300

$300 well spent to reduce the likely-hood of 10,000 properties catching fire

less resource wastage and stress on Fire Brigade/Departments

and keeps things sweet with Weller's reputation on those 10,000 units sold.


A backyard battling tech would flex their credit card and pay that for peace of mind,

mod the gear with those temperature fuses to make stuff  'safer' with less comebacks :phew:

keep some spares on hand (100, 1000?)

and sell off the rest (to Weller perhaps?  ::) ) to recuperate costs


Then again, maybe that's too complicated for most manufacturing companies nowadays to digest  ???  :-\ 

plus the fact that $300 saved can score a bean counter a few snorts of coke, and or a couple of roulette wheel spins... :popcorn:

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #510 on: January 01, 2019, 12:37:37 pm »
Let's not forget that just purchasing a part is not all that is involved.  It has to be fitted, at least.  That won't involve a lot of cost, but it won't be zero.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #511 on: January 01, 2019, 02:41:09 pm »
Their more recent but old Magnestat stations include a primary side fuse on the inside and I have never even heard of one blowing.  I do not know about their older ones.
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #512 on: January 01, 2019, 04:53:11 pm »
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
We do have GFCIs for every circuit. Of course, we have 220v. Anyways, the GFCIs won't only protect people, but as they trip with only 30 mA of current, instead of the several amps of a circuit breaker, they also provide improved fire protection.
 

Offline sbode

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #513 on: January 01, 2019, 04:54:28 pm »
My Ersa i-con has a primary side fuse, and a spare fuse. Attached is a mini-slideshow-teardown :)
Hi all,
I'm shocked about Weller.
I looked on my Ersa icon-2: it's a 120W system for up to two devices and it has a 1.25A primary Fuse for the 230V Version.

I have also an old Ersa TE50 24V 80W iron with a desoldering adapter, working since 1978 !
It has an NiCrNi thermo and controlled via an old Elektor analog control. ... (Yes analog technologý of the 70's which is going really fine)

Cheers

STephan
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #514 on: January 01, 2019, 08:54:41 pm »
Weller executives do want new Mercedes after all.

A thermal fuse is in the 240VAC European transformer but not the North American 120VAC version.
So the cost savings are $0.03 plus some manual labour done in Mexico, per unit. Get a robot to install the fuse.
Hakko FX afforded a die-cast metal base and a primary fuse...

To lower cost of this soldering station:
1. Ditch the redundant secondary fusing.
2. Shorten the power cord one foot. Would save $0.35 from copper savings! :-DD
3. Shrink the size of the station. It has a big footprint, it should be narrow and tall like Asian stations to not waste workbench room. Rotate the tranny 90 degrees.

An old WTCPT I have:
It has an illuminated on/off switch, primary fuse too. Ahh the glory days of Weller.
I add a bolt on the top to hold a roll of solder. I add an ESD ground banana jack.

P.S. WTCPT price is now silly $210, WES51 obsolete.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #515 on: January 01, 2019, 09:03:12 pm »
I have a WTCPS sitting here in front of me and the military WTCPK (shown at the link below) in my tool bag.  My favorites are the WTCP-L and WTCPN.

But I wonder how much longer spare parts will be available for them.

https://stevenjohnson.com/soldering/weller.htm
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #516 on: January 01, 2019, 09:12:23 pm »
Let's do the math:

Minimum Order of 10,000 at .029 cents U.S., plus shipping, let's make it tidy and call it all up $300

$300 well spent to reduce the likely-hood of 10,000 properties catching fire

less resource wastage and stress on Fire Brigade/Departments

and keeps things sweet with Weller's reputation on those 10,000 units sold.


A backyard battling tech would flex their credit card and pay that for peace of mind,

mod the gear with those temperature fuses to make stuff  'safer' with less comebacks :phew:

keep some spares on hand (100, 1000?)

and sell off the rest (to Weller perhaps?  ::) ) to recuperate costs


Then again, maybe that's too complicated for most manufacturing companies nowadays to digest  ???  :-\ 

plus the fact that $300 saved can score a bean counter a few snorts of coke, and or a couple of roulette wheel spins... :popcorn:
We keep seeing these posts which suggest recklessness on the part of Weller, but that still only seems based on conjecture and the perception of some people how things should be done. The fact that Weller has decided not to fuse the US version, as opposed to the EU version, suggests that actual proper engineering may have gone into it. It's very possible they identified risks in the EU unit which weren't so much of a hazard in the US version, so they eliminated a part which wasn't required.

Can you substantiate any of your claims? Perhaps you can show us how the choice Weller made has made any meaningful impact on the stress of fire brigades? Or that the decision to leave out the fuse in some units has actually increased the rate in which properties catch fire?
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #517 on: January 01, 2019, 10:03:20 pm »
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
We do have GFCIs for every circuit. Of course, we have 220v. Anyways, the GFCIs won't only protect people, but as they trip with only 30 mA of current, instead of the several amps of a circuit breaker, they also provide improved fire protection.

That's great. We don't and I don't know of any electrocutions or electrical fires around here.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #518 on: January 01, 2019, 10:57:29 pm »
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
We do have GFCIs for every circuit. Of course, we have 220v. Anyways, the GFCIs won't only protect people, but as they trip with only 30 mA of current, instead of the several amps of a circuit breaker, they also provide improved fire protection.

That's great. We don't and I don't know of any electrocutions or electrical fires around here.
Woo, anecdotal evidence! Got us all convinced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #519 on: January 01, 2019, 11:12:30 pm »
Let's do the math:

Minimum Order of 10,000 at .029 cents U.S., plus shipping, let's make it tidy and call it all up $300

$300 well spent to reduce the likely-hood of 10,000 properties catching fire

less resource wastage and stress on Fire Brigade/Departments

and keeps things sweet with Weller's reputation on those 10,000 units sold.


A backyard battling tech would flex their credit card and pay that for peace of mind,

mod the gear with those temperature fuses to make stuff  'safer' with less comebacks :phew:

keep some spares on hand (100, 1000?)

and sell off the rest (to Weller perhaps?  ::) ) to recuperate costs


Then again, maybe that's too complicated for most manufacturing companies nowadays to digest  ???  :-\ 

plus the fact that $300 saved can score a bean counter a few snorts of coke, and or a couple of roulette wheel spins... :popcorn:



We keep seeing these posts which suggest recklessness on the part of Weller, but that still only seems based on conjecture and the perception of some people how things should be done.
The fact that Weller has decided not to fuse the US version, as opposed to the EU version, suggests that actual proper engineering may have gone into it.
It's very possible they identified risks in the EU unit which weren't so much of a hazard in the US version, so they eliminated a part which wasn't required.

Can you substantiate any of your claims?
Perhaps you can show us how the choice Weller made has made any meaningful impact on the stress of fire brigades?
Or that the decision to leave out the fuse in some units has actually increased the rate in which properties catch fire?




AFAICT many concerned posts here are not solely or remotely based on "conjecture and perception" but on equipment safety and reliabilty/longevity in the event of a fault, be it an internal or external cause

i.e. the fuse blows, immediate danger averted, there is no assumption required that Weller 'may' or may not actually performed actual proper engineering,
nor why they really cheaped out on 120 volt customers, with apologist PR quickie BS identifying their units as low hazard risks.

A cheap properly rated fuse arrangement is an easy upgrade to very low hazard to no hazard status,
and helps the manufacturer keep a low hazard distance from courtrooms  :phew:

----------------------------

FWIW to GFCI and RCD "faithers",
if the unfused soldering station is smouldering away nicely, chances are excellent the GFCI, RCD, MCB, RCBO will not trip  ???

i.e. the barbeque load may be balanced in relation to ground/earth,
and way below the MCB threshold

but the power strip board with cutout temp breaker switch might, if you're lucky to have one and the room hasn't caught fire yet

and the smoke detector might sound off, if one is fitted nearby

which won't do you any favours if the bench is left unattended by the user who has gone off to pick up pizza, diodes, caps, fuse kit, Weller and Hakko brochures,

and perhaps a pair of discounted fire extinguishers, fire blanket and bucket of sand too,
especially after reading this   :D
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 11:16:43 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #520 on: January 01, 2019, 11:35:04 pm »
Those are all sensible improvements.
But there are just as many examples that show you have some level of personal responsibility. For example, you can still stick your finger in an edison socket.
Exactly, but the improvements were considered sensible enough to warrant the improvements to be put into norm, and not the umbrella statement that here the state leaves everyone to "fend for themselves".

The original video brought light to a regulation that is considered by many to have an unsensible gap. How sensible it is to add a very basic level of protection to a product that is designed by a very reputable company?

Also, 120V is more than enough to cause a cardiac arrest, not a tingle.
Maybe with sweaty hands and a weak heart.

Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
We do have GFCIs for every circuit. Of course, we have 220v. Anyways, the GFCIs won't only protect people, but as they trip with only 30 mA of current, instead of the several amps of a circuit breaker, they also provide improved fire protection.

That's great. We don't and I don't know of any electrocutions or electrical fires around here.
Woo, anecdotal evidence! Got us all convinced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Well, around here I haven't heard about any electrocutions, but a bit far west of me a girl was electrocuted by a frayed cord.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/07/18/health/teen-bathtub-electrocuted-text-trnd/index.html

It is hard to say what was the girl's heart condition, but I know that 120Vac can kill someone, healthy or not, depending on the conditions of the event.

Before you use this as an example of how personal responsibility is at play (and I agree), I also point out that the now mandatory GFCI norm was created to address these scenarios.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #521 on: January 01, 2019, 11:39:01 pm »
AFAICT many concerned posts here are not solely or remotely based on "conjecture and perception" but on equipment safety and reliabilty/longevity in the event of a fault, be it an internal or external cause

i.e. the fuse blows, immediate danger averted, there is no assumption required that Weller 'may' or may not actually performed actual proper engineering,
nor why they really cheaped out on 120 volt customers, with apologist PR quickie BS identifying their units as low hazard risks.

A cheap properly rated fuse arrangement is an easy upgrade to very low hazard to no hazard status,
and helps the manufacturer keep a low hazard distance from courtrooms  :phew:

----------------------------

FWIW to GFCI and RCD "faithers",
if the unfused soldering station is smouldering away nicely, chances are excellent the GFCI, RCD, MCB, RCBO will not trip  ???

i.e. the barbeque load may be balanced in relation to ground/earth,
and way below the MCB threshold

but the power strip board with cutout temp breaker switch might, if you're lucky to have one and the room hasn't caught fire yet

and the smoke detector might sound off, if one is fitted nearby

which won't do you any favours if the bench is left unattended by the user who has gone off to pick up pizza, diodes, caps, fuse kit, Weller and Hakko brochures,

and perhaps a pair of discounted fire extinguishers, fire blanket and bucket of sand too,
especially after reading this   :D
Thanks for the highlighting as it shows how I'm expressing myself carefully. I don't like to present matters as facts when I don't have solid evidence to back that claim up. As opposed to the endless and fairly malicious conjecture of some people here, assuming all kinds of things based on their perception of how things should be done but without any actual testing or knowledge of the decisions involved in the design process. If you go around calling a company out, it pays to have something more than "I feel it's a risk" to back that up. Otherwise they're just fairly hysterical imaginary scenarios made up to rationalize angry fist shaking.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #522 on: January 01, 2019, 11:41:01 pm »
How about using one of the special "power-cords" (actually an arc fault protection) for the Xbox that MS send out instead of a recall. Dave has one - but to Weller anymore  :-DD
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #523 on: January 01, 2019, 11:51:34 pm »
Just had an email someone who said their (very) old WTCTP went up in smoke in a transformer failure (120V unit)
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #524 on: January 01, 2019, 11:54:12 pm »
Just had an email someone who said their (very) old WTCTP went up in smoke in a transformer failure (120V unit)
Real data beats conjecture every time, even if it's anecdotal. What was the end result?
 


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