Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 158288 times)

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Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #725 on: January 04, 2019, 11:57:37 pm »
you cannot guarantee the safety of a transformer that was smoking it's enamel.
Why not?

its like making sure the nuts you ate won't come to the surface of a turd i don't know how to explain how this is a engineering stupidity in any other words, its a boiling expanding mass of plastic thats on the threshold of fire held back by nasty chemical fume blanket that prevents a burn.

how don't you see this/
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #726 on: January 05, 2019, 12:06:12 am »
its like making sure the nuts you ate won't come to the surface of a turd i don't know how to explain how this is a engineering stupidity in any other words, its a boiling expanding mass of plastic thats on the threshold of fire held back by nasty chemical fume blanket that prevents a burn.

how don't you see this/
Without being facetious, I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say here.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #727 on: January 05, 2019, 12:07:22 am »
how don't you see this/
Precisely because I did not see it.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #728 on: January 05, 2019, 12:13:37 am »
how the unit fails when not unplugged.
Ah yes that's the $100 question.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #729 on: January 05, 2019, 12:18:21 am »
its like making sure the nuts you ate won't come to the surface of a turd i don't know how to explain how this is a engineering stupidity in any other words, its a boiling expanding mass of plastic thats on the threshold of fire held back by nasty chemical fume blanket that prevents a burn.

how don't you see this/
Without being facetious, I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say here.

your fire safety goes from a fool proof piece of copper wire in a glass tube to a complex chemical reaction that will god willing turn into plastic smoke and not fire. you know that stuff is still flammable right, its just more difficult to ignite the idea being it cools down rapidly enough to barely prevent it from igniting.

its like making wood gas instead of burning wood. its real close already.

at best you can call it fire resistant. wheras a fuse is fire proof

also if the formula is a bit off it can go completely haywire and turn into a complete flamethrower, compared to a fuse, you can't really screw up a copper fuse.

improper mixing, failure to add additives, separation during manufacturing, etc.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 12:22:06 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #730 on: January 05, 2019, 12:50:36 am »
improper mixing, failure to add additives, separation during manufacturing, etc.
Friday the 13th, 15km/h wind due north, crescent moon, pluto in alignment ...
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #731 on: January 05, 2019, 01:43:40 am »
If it's UL listed, hasn't it already been tested for this?

Why do we have to do this again? Dave conducted this test. And it failed, exactly as it should have.
I'd like to test gross overvoltage to see how the unit fails when not unplugged.
Fair enough.  Not your typical scenario, but it is a question from our curiosity.

Quote
A second test can show whether a fuse would actually save it without harm.
Absolutely.

Quote
Either case would be user error, but it'd put an end to that part of the discussion.
I would share that same hope - but I fear it would be in vain.  Logic is not followed by everyone and some just like to be ornery.

Quote
Whether the unit is safe without fuse under normal conditions is a bit harder to assess.
Yes, it will be much harder, but despite this difficulty, it is what this discussion should be about (IMHO) - especially in respect to the expectations from Weller.


... but one can only dream.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #732 on: January 05, 2019, 02:04:24 am »
Fair enough.  Not your typical scenario, but it is a question from our curiosity.

Absolutely.

I would share that same hope - but I fear it would be in vain.  Logic is not followed by everyone and some just like to be ornery.

Yes, it will be much harder, but despite this difficulty, it is what this discussion should be about (IMHO) - especially in respect to the expectations from Weller.


... but one can only dream.
If you have ideas about testing the latter, they'd be more than welcome.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #733 on: January 05, 2019, 02:21:39 am »
All I can think of is to take any recorded events, recreate the circumstances and subject the target device to those conditions and note what happens.

The sort of events I mean are those that are experienced in a nominal environment.  (A 120V device plugged into a 240V supply is not one of those - for the armchair warriors still champing at that bit.)

To do this properly, you would need an objectively compiled set of observations - and I do not have such a database.

Hypothetical situations need to be avoided - since there will be an infinite number of them and much debate can be spent on conditions that may occur once in every 10,000 years (I might be tempted to call that "ignorable").  Besides, hypotheticals come from our imagination and the real world has a habit of throwing up situations we didn't think about.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 02:25:52 am by Brumby »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #734 on: January 05, 2019, 02:42:05 am »

'They' may be pumping the two corptrolls with 'fiery' emails to get this fuseless fiasco wrapped up and gone by YESTERDAY,

package the offensive as a one time 'user error' by DJ,

handball him a replacement 240v station and spare tips 

and as a last resort offer a sellers Amazon gig if it gets to real hardball


It's a cheap way out to continue flogging fuseless 120v stations to US/Canada markets,
and assume they don't cop a 240v zap, plugging it in to 240v outlets by mistake via 120/240 converter lead,
or a house wiring or street transformer snafu

and crossed corporate fingers and legs that none make it to Australia again, and land on an electronics jedi bench 

or a rogue boxload float over to Cashies...  :scared:



 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #735 on: January 05, 2019, 02:44:00 am »

'They' may be pumping the two corptrolls with 'fiery' emails to get this fuseless fiasco wrapped up and gone by YESTERDAY,

package the offensive as a one time 'user error' by DJ,

handball him a replacement 240v station and spare tips 

and as a last resort offer a sellers Amazon gig if it gets to real hardball


It's a cheap way out to continue flogging fuseless 120v stations to US/Canada markets,
and assume they don't cop a 240v zap, plugging it in to 240v outlets by mistake via 120/240 converter lead,
or a house wiring or street transformer snafu

and crossed corporate fingers and legs that none make it to Australia again, and land on an electronics jedi bench 

or a rogue boxload float over to Cashies...  :scared:



How much do you contribute to the testing funds? How about $50 too?
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #736 on: January 05, 2019, 03:08:40 am »
'They' may be pumping the two corptrolls with 'fiery' emails ... and land on an electronics jedi bench or a rogue boxload float over to Cashies... 

 

... But, little did they know that he's a actually a double-agent, and the whole fuse debacle was a clever ploy to take the heat off of Miniware, makers of the TS1000, following the recent negative review on EEVBLOG. Meanwhile, Ersa CEO apologizes after independent labs discover that they have been falsifying power factor figures...

:popcorn:
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #737 on: January 05, 2019, 03:14:13 am »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #738 on: January 05, 2019, 03:33:00 am »

Not only is that a terrible saying used to justify all kinds of wild assumptions, Dave's video literally showed smoke and no fire.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #739 on: January 05, 2019, 04:23:19 am »
The ultimate combination of severe user error, electrical naivety and distressingly cheap design:

Actually, I am quite impressed with the design. It successfully worked on 240 V without blowing the indicator lamps, burning out the elements or melting the plastic case. Also, when it caught fire it was only the toast and cheese that was burning after being incinerated. The toaster itself seemed OK.

It honestly did way better than I thought it would.

Quote

 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #740 on: January 05, 2019, 05:05:28 am »

DJ might wanna think about pulling out the mini Weller Welder trannie from the    [-Bin Of UnFused Shame- ]

and get some toasted cheese snacks going, in between Youtube vids

The taste may not be quite MKR standard, but at least the lab won't have to be left unattended whilst any Weller stations are running 
and no one goes hungry.

The New Weller Lab Barbie;D
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #741 on: January 05, 2019, 05:33:04 am »
Yeah and plug in a few more 120V or Chinese appliances, and make a magic smoker box. Mmm mm.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #742 on: January 05, 2019, 05:45:12 am »
Oops...  I forgot to include bigclive's appropriate response to the 120->240V mishap video above:



Classic Clive...  :)

Actually, BigClive is wrong. The primary saturated and ran well beyond 4 times normal power dissipation, and then likely went into accelerated melt down as the enamel was burnt off and the primary turns shorted.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #743 on: January 05, 2019, 05:50:45 am »
Do you have an explanation other than "bean counting"?

Do you have any evidence that there have been any failures that resulted in any property damage due to, for example, one of these units bursting into flames and burning down someone's house, lab, place of business, etc?  Has anyone been zapped into a permanent coma by such device?  These are the things that the standards, regulations, etc. are meant to influence...

Then why do Weller bother to fit fuses to most of their other products in the same functional category?
If there is any argument here at all, this is it.
Again, Weller are allowed to sell a (certified) product without a mains fuse, that's not an issue, but why do some of them have a fuse and some don't?
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #744 on: January 05, 2019, 05:53:27 am »
... not if they have a primary fuse. Primary fuses also protect from user errors. Weller - not very forgiving.  >:D
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #745 on: January 05, 2019, 05:54:31 am »
you cannot guarantee the safety of a transformer that was smoking it's enamel.
Why not?

Because the enamel melts and the turns short out, and this likely happens in a progressive accelerated fashion, effectively feeding on itself in a thermal runaway of sorts.
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #746 on: January 05, 2019, 05:56:54 am »
Dave, would you be availabe for a test where a Weller unit is *not* removed from mains after it started smoking ?
Some Weller fanboys here say that there is no safety issue because no open flames occurred.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #747 on: January 05, 2019, 06:17:01 am »
Actually, BigClive is wrong. The primary saturated.
I've never seen a toaster with a transformer in it. Is that a thing?
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #748 on: January 05, 2019, 06:21:48 am »
Because the enamel melts and the turns short out, and this likely happens in a progressive accelerated fashion, effectively feeding on itself in a thermal runaway of sorts.
... until it goes open circuit. Right?
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #749 on: January 05, 2019, 06:23:29 am »
Some Weller fanboys
Who? I think Wellers are ugly.  ;D
 


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