Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 158238 times)

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #800 on: January 05, 2019, 10:35:18 pm »
It did trip, as I recall Dave mentioning. The breaker is to protect the building wiring, not devices.
As far as I know, Dave pulled the plug. I may be mistaken.
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #801 on: January 05, 2019, 10:38:20 pm »
I thinks thats correct. He pulled the plug to prevent the smoke detector going off, IIRC.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #802 on: January 05, 2019, 10:52:19 pm »
It did trip, as I recall Dave mentioning. The breaker is to protect the building wiring, not devices.

Citation, please?

I don't believe Dave's particular mishap escapade blew a mains breaker.

I asked about this before, for example, in this post linked below, and never got any response:

why did it blow the breaker if its supposed to fuse??

Wait...  What?  Who blew what breaker now?   :-//
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #803 on: January 05, 2019, 11:17:24 pm »
UL considers the breaker tripping during transformer tests a FAIL ... Troll be gone
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It was literally seconds. If I hadn't pulled the plug and tossed the unit in a box to trap the smoke, the building ...

It was mentioned in the video, and the topic. When people believe something hard enough, it starts to become reality in their head. But oh no ... I'm a troll and a corporate schill  ;D  People are starting to feel very threatened and take this VERY personally
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 11:21:34 pm by timelessbeing »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #804 on: January 06, 2019, 12:00:05 am »
Web forums entertain me, but i won't waste any money on that. You can pay for that if you want, or weller can do it, and/or answer something better for the electronics community.
Nobody will just give away money to random people in a web forum, anyways, you know?
You're eager to harm the reputation of a company based on conjecture, but are not willing to spend a dime to back it up. At least we know what you feel your statements are worth. I've already said I'd put in $50 of my own, but feel it should be community effort of all those making claims here. And I'm not even making claims, I'm just curious what claims hold up.

The one making the claim here is Weller.
They have asserted by their own actions and lack of technical response to this issue that a fuse is not worthwhile in a couple of their low end products, but is presumably worthwhile in all their other products.
Weller need to answer this, not the community.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #805 on: January 06, 2019, 12:03:08 am »
It did trip, as I recall Dave mentioning. The breaker is to protect the building wiring, not devices.
As far as I know, Dave pulled the plug. I may be mistaken.

Yes, I pulled the plug seconds after I noticed the smoke and dumped the whole thing in a box to prevent the smoke getting to the alarm sensors.
Yes the mains break did trip, but I do not know if it was the 16A overcurrent or the earth leakage built into the same breaker. The iron was working (LCD flashing) right up until I pulled the plug.
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #806 on: January 06, 2019, 12:08:48 am »
@ DJ  99% sure from your report that pulling the plug caused the RCD part to trip, not the breaker 

RCBOs are great space savers and good enough for most situations

but not much help identifying trip issues of misbehaving gear.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 12:13:26 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #807 on: January 06, 2019, 12:09:21 am »
It's was hilarious to rewatch the vids. EEVblog #1152 - 240V-120V = Magic Smoke! 4:10 "reflex reaction pulled the mains cord at the back of the thing"

Louis Rossmann: Weller sells irons WITHOUT FUSE ON 120V: DOESN'T CARE!

"even a burger flipper that's 16 years old stoned at McDonalds is gonna understand why it is that you need a mains fuse..."

Nope. Not here.

I also noticed the WE1010 PCB has a 4A fuse, so that's three protective devices on the secondary side.
Perhaps trolls can comment on why two fuses is better than none.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #808 on: January 06, 2019, 12:09:27 am »
You were arguing that the transformer is unsafe.

No, I was not.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #809 on: January 06, 2019, 12:15:48 am »
I also noticed the WE1010 PCB has a 4A fuse, so that's three protective devices on the secondary side.
Perhaps trolls can comment on why two fuses is better than none.

Yep, few want to discuss the actual issue, which is why Weller chose to have three series (not exactly cheap) protection devices on the secondary, yet zero protection on the primary, all the while providing primary protection on almost all of their other products like all their competitors and cheap clones do. It's laughable of course, and is the reason why this is massively embarrassing for Weller.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #810 on: January 06, 2019, 12:17:47 am »
@ DJ  99% sure from your report that pulling the plug caused the RCD part to trip, not the breaker 
RCBOs are great space savers and good enough for most situations
but not much help identifying trip issues of misbehaving gear.

Yes, I think it was the RCD too. But of course impossible to know 100% when they are an integrated device.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #811 on: January 06, 2019, 12:18:45 am »
It did trip, as I recall Dave mentioning. The breaker is to protect the building wiring, not devices.

Citation, please?


Quote
2.5   PROTECTION AGAINST OVERCURRENT 2.5.1   General Active conductors shall be protected by one or more devices that automatically disconnect the supply in the event of overcurrent, before such overcurrent attains a magnitude or duration that could cause injury to persons or livestock or damage because of excessive temperatures or electromechanical stresses in the electrical installation.

from AS/NZS3000:2007 (A new standard is now in effect ie. 1/1/2019,  but I doubt there has been any change to this concept.)

IMO not fusing the primary for a soldering iron is just shit engineering.

Ps. I just replaced fuses (slow blow)  in two HP/Agilent power supplies. 35A 60V. I am fairly sure these supplies suffered from an over voltage as they were plugged in while electricians were working/testing. They had no load but stopped working. Thankfully a reputable company saw fit to use primary fuses.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #812 on: January 06, 2019, 12:21:58 am »
UL considers the breaker tripping during transformer tests a FAIL ... Troll be gone
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It was literally seconds. If I hadn't pulled the plug and tossed the unit in a box to trap the smoke, the building ...

It was mentioned in the video, and the topic. When people believe something hard enough, it starts to become reality in their head. But oh no ... I'm a troll and a corporate schill  ;D 

People are starting to feel very threatened and take this VERY personally



@ timelessbeing, there's no feeling threatened or personal vibe here mate  :-//

(puts on Kevlar rig and face shield, downloading anti-malware update...)  :phew:


Back to the topic...   ;D

Regarding breakers:

DJ states he has a 16 amp RCBO breaker (single or dual space combined RCD/GFCI and MCB)


e.g. If a 140 amp transformer welder pulling constant and intermittent 15 to 35 amps current at 240v
at near and full short circuit conditions on the transformer secondary (during actual non stop arc welding with 3.2 or 4mm electrodes)
it will do it tough to pop the 16 amp breaker but may/will eventually...

this is assuming the welder and leads are in good shape with direct plug in connection to a standard GPO wall socket
(i.e. no amateurish backyarder flimsy 10 amp extension cord malarky) 


So what chance has a sizzling lil Weller trannie got to pop DJs breaker ?  > PowerBall win chances ?


At best if it's plugged in to a 4 or 6 way power strip board with a thermal breaker/Reset thingie, the ones with the small black or red switch usually near the cord entry,
it may heat up around the 8 to 12 amp range (depending on the breaker design/curve) and trip the power board.

i.e. you can forget about MCBs and RCDs popping...unless the Weller is pulling over 32 to 44 amps for over one minute
and or the IEC cord catches fire
and or IEC socket melts, falls inside/outside and shorts/welds itself. Then perhaps the MCB and or RCD 'may' trip

...assuming those devices have been tested and their switches exercised at least a few times yearly  ???


I'm sorta convinced if the Weller was allowed to keep going, and the adjacent insulation stripped windings merged/spot welded themselves together, instead of breaking,
then DJ would have had himself a nice block of red hot glowing metal, an unhappy ESD mat, barbequed bench, 

and lots and lots of Majique Smoke... 


btw: do I still need to donate the $50 now, after cobbling up this long winded electrical blab  ?  :'(
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #813 on: January 06, 2019, 12:23:20 am »
Remember the days when the fuse was on the front panel:

 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #814 on: January 06, 2019, 12:26:51 am »
DJ states he has a 16 amp RCBO breaker (single or dual space combined RCD/GFCI and MCB)

Correction, it's a 20A breaker, with 30mA RCD.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #815 on: January 06, 2019, 12:32:04 am »
DJ states he has a 16 amp RCBO breaker (single or dual space combined RCD/GFCI and MCB)
e.g. If a 140 amp transformer welder pulling constant and intermittent 15 to 35 amps current at 240v
at near and full short circuit conditions on the transformer secondary (during actual non stop arc welding with 3.2 or 4mm electrodes)
it will do it tough to pop the 16 amp breaker but may/will eventually...

this is assuming the welder and leads are in good shape with direct plug in connection to a standard GPO wall socket
(i.e. no amateurish backyarder flimsy 10 amp extension cord malarky) 

So what chance has a sizzling lil Weller trannie got to pop DJs breaker ?  > PowerBall win chances ?

At best if it's plugged in to a 4 or 6 way power strip board with a thermal breaker/Reset thingie, the ones with the small black or red switch usually near the cord entry,
it may heat up around the 8 to 12 amp range (depending on the breaker design/curve) and trip the power board.

More clarification:
It was plugged into two power boards in series, each of which has it's own (presumably 10A as that's the total rating) breaker. Plus the main switch board 20A breaker.
The power board breakers were not tripped.
So absolutely no way it tripped the 20A mains breaker without tripping the others, it was most certainly the 30mA RCD that tripped.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #816 on: January 06, 2019, 01:17:37 am »
You were arguing that the transformer is unsafe.

No, I was not.

you cannot guarantee the safety of a transformer that was smoking it's enamel.
Why not?

Because the enamel melts and the turns short out,
and this likely happens in a progressive accelerated fashion, effectively feeding on itself in a thermal runaway of sorts.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #817 on: January 06, 2019, 01:25:20 am »
@ timelessbeing, there's no feeling threatened or personal vibe here mate  :-//

Thank you. Likewise, and I do appreciate your sense of humour.

Some are getting a bit defensive, and this guy wants me to die.

Dave, dont worry. Darwinism will take good care of these people.  >:D
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #818 on: January 06, 2019, 01:31:22 am »
pulling the plug caused the RCD part to trip
Please pardon my ignorance, but how does that work?
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #819 on: January 06, 2019, 01:32:15 am »
@ timelessbeing, there's no feeling threatened or personal vibe here mate  :-//

Thank you. Likewise, and I do appreciate your sense of humour.

Some are getting a bit defensive, and this guy wants me to die.

Dave, dont worry. Darwinism will take good care of these people.  >:D

Poor chap. Now that they run out of arguments, they also run out of humour. Two smileys this time  :) :) I was trying to fight for a safer world, and now look at this  :palm:
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #820 on: January 06, 2019, 01:34:17 am »
@ timelessbeing, there's no feeling threatened or personal vibe here mate  :-//

Thank you. Likewise, and I do appreciate your sense of humour.

Some are getting a bit defensive, and this guy wants me to die.

Dave, dont worry. Darwinism will take good care of these people.  >:D
:o
Can you not see the potential for primary to secondary isolation failure and unfused mains into the iron element ?
Then....  :o
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #821 on: January 06, 2019, 01:42:36 am »
If you look at the soldering station's PCB's grounding, it's um not so great.

My experience is certifiers will pass full current 15A (in North America) through ground for an hour to ensure the safety ground would not fail. This checks things like via's, thermal reliefs, PCB traces etc. do not open-circuit. Now take a look at the Weller PCB... see if you can spot it.

If the transformer was allowed to continue to burn up, the bobbin can melt inside and cause mains to bridge over to the secondary winding. The melting bobbin can also bridge primary to the core. It is all part of the transformer certification checks.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #822 on: January 06, 2019, 01:49:35 am »
Can you not see the potential for primary to secondary isolation failure and unfused mains into the iron element ?
Even if the potential could actually be quantified, there is protection after the secondary.

I doubt that the wire would have the energy or time required to melt through the bobbin and contact the core, but even if it did, it's contained in the enclosure.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #823 on: January 06, 2019, 01:56:00 am »
pulling the plug caused the RCD part to trip

Please pardon my ignorance, but how does that work?


It's a fair question, so here goes...  :-// 

When he pulled the plug, chances are that both the active and neutral pins did not come out at the same time,
so the RCD sensed a 30ma+  imbalance to earth/ground/third pin with the smouldering load pulling amps, and popped

If the MCB section had popped, there would have been a spark and the zapped plug/socket eminating a slight scent of...brimstone ?  >:D

 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #824 on: January 06, 2019, 02:16:01 am »
pulling the plug caused the RCD part to trip

Please pardon my ignorance, but how does that work?


It's a fair question, so here goes...  :-// 

When he pulled the plug, chances are that both the active and neutral pins did not come out at the same time,
so the RCD sensed a 30ma+  imbalance to earth/ground/third pin with the smouldering load pulling amps, and popped

If the MCB section had popped, there would have been a spark and the zapped plug/socket eminating a slight scent of...brimstone ?  >:D

There could also have been significant leakage the earth already from the melting enamel and smoke etc, and didn't take take much else to trip it. RCD's can trip all the time based on all sorts of factors like inductive kickback from suddenly disconnected loads and other influences.
 
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