Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 86875 times)

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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #825 on: January 06, 2019, 04:12:57 am »
I see. The transformer was highly energized, so the inductive kickback would have been beyond normal too. It likely arced to ground somewhere.
 

Offline LapTop006

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #826 on: January 06, 2019, 04:49:43 am »
There could also have been significant leakage the earth already from the melting enamel and smoke etc, and didn't take take much else to trip it. RCD's can trip all the time based on all sorts of factors like inductive kickback from suddenly disconnected loads and other influences.

Plus any other devices on the circuit.
 

Offline nharrer

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #827 on: January 11, 2019, 07:30:07 pm »
Remember the days when the fuse was on the front panel:

Oh boy. I opened my station to check if it has a fuse. Only to find out that it has that front fuse. I looked at it so many times I didn't notice it anymore  :palm:








 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #828 on: January 11, 2019, 07:49:57 pm »
The one making the claim here is Weller.
They have asserted by their own actions and lack of technical response to this issue that a fuse is not worthwhile in a couple of their low end products, but is presumably worthwhile in all their other products.
Weller need to answer this, not the community.
So far Weller seems to be right, as no real danger has been properly been quantified. I don't really understand how people can be so adamant about Weller being in the wrong without coming up with anything tangible.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 07:59:08 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #829 on: January 11, 2019, 08:45:54 pm »
Let us consider the WE1010NA secondary-side fusing. Three protective devices in series  :clap:

I can't see the PTC ever tripping, it's rated 14A and the quicker of the two other fuses will trip first.
We all know a shorted transformer secondary winding here would result in a BBQ.

During product certifications, one fault can (generally) be injected to the product, an open or short here or there as the safety standard dictates or the certifier chooses, to see if an unsafe condition results.

The only reason I know of that would justify the triple-stupid string of fuses, is to thwart a short at "the output of the transformer" test defined as after the PTC+fuse, a technicality as they "belong" to the transformer assembly, they are part of the transformer. So short things after them. It seems to be a CYA for the lack of primary fusing.

The transformer's external fuse has no part number, a Gerrman ELU/Siba item with only UL approval.
Oddly it is varnish-dipped along with the transformer and PTC. Varnish can get into the fuse housing during the Vacuum Pressure Impregnation and corrupt its operation. Regulatory does not permit this- unless a fuse is declared air-tight, which is extremely rare.

So this is a second Weller mess on this product.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 08:47:47 pm by floobydust »
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #830 on: January 11, 2019, 10:55:19 pm »
I'm convinced (in MOST cases) they no longer even test these heat producing devices under real world conditions,
they just buy up the parts according to design drafts and wack them in (or wrist burn OHL assemblers to do it cheaper than cheap),
without even a quick pre test of the safety components before fitting,
LOL even if they are 'Never Trip' values to begin with  ::)

You would think the bosses and staff might take some prototype units home for some weekend project soldering,
put them through the paces and report back before release,
as well as sneak in a SUGGESTION to add in cheap fuses as CHEAP INSURANCE!  :phew:

It's dumbass at best and or manufacturer foot shooting  :palm:


FWIW rumour suggests a LOT of these companies are now  ~owned~  by electronics challenged CLUELESS shyster investment groups
that either don't employ and or suppress proper EE SAFETY recommendations,
perhaps fudge the UL thing,

then release their corpotrolls on the inernet to do damage control dirty work   >:D >:D

That used to sort of work back in 2000 AD, but it's like 2019 now and people are a bit more internet savvy,
well, not by much, just a bit more than not at all...  :D

----------------

So folks, do ya reckon the corpotrolls will throw in the dirty towel and report back to the bosses to fit some fusing in the suckers
before dwindling reputation and sales begin to go seriously south?  :popcorn:



 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #831 on: January 12, 2019, 12:07:00 am »
i wonder if you can put some kind of mechanical diode/integrator to work on thermal fuse expansion so that if it expands a few times times due to a thermal oscillation condition it breaks a switch.

It always bugged me that its maybe possible for a damaged device to oscillate like that with a thermal fuse.

Think of one of those dishwasher expansion thingies connected to a gear train.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 12:09:05 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #832 on: January 12, 2019, 01:36:10 am »
Thermal links do fatigue fail, they are a soft alloy and experience inrush currents. Unless you mean cycling a resettable one?

A thermal fuse here would be rated below the magnet wire polyurethane and bobbin plastic limit of around 125°C.
Salvation pic from: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/is-a-thermal-fuse-a-current-fuse-as-well/msg1276728/#msg1276728
 

Offline graybeard

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #833 on: February 16, 2019, 07:19:52 pm »
Here are some photos from inside one of my Weller WTCP soldering stations.  As the schematic above shows there is no fuse in the primary of the transformer.  The transformer is also constructed in a manner I have not seen before with the majority of the wingdings exposed.






Offline Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #834 on: February 16, 2019, 07:42:23 pm »
@graybeard:
Quote
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /eevblog/WTCP_TC202-1.JPG on this server.

Apache/2.2.16 (Debian) Server at diver.net Port 80
>:(
 

Online tautech

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #835 on: February 16, 2019, 07:46:45 pm »
@graybeard:
Quote
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /eevblog/WTCP_TC202-1.JPG on this server.

Apache/2.2.16 (Debian) Server at diver.net Port 80
>:(
Images load fine on W10 and a Chrome browser.  :-//
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #836 on: February 16, 2019, 07:47:08 pm »
Is that an used soldering station or have you bought it brand new?
 

Offline graybeard

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #837 on: February 16, 2019, 10:43:08 pm »
Is that an used soldering station or have you bought it brand new?

I got it used 35 years ago.  It spent 30 years approximately 200 yards from the Pacific Ocean.  I have two of them and they still both work well.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 10:46:34 pm by graybeard »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #838 on: February 16, 2019, 10:44:33 pm »
Here are some photos from inside one of my Weller WTCP soldering stations.  As the schematic above shows there is no fuse in the primary of the transformer.  The transformer is also constructed in a manner I have not seen before with the majority of the windings exposed.

That is an antique station. No primary fuse (North America) was from a day of older electrical safety standards. UL 336B is long gone. My guess the primary-side fuse showed up around 1990 in Weller stations.

Inside is one of the solenoid-style power transformers used by Weller in their soldering guns and older stations.
It has a ton of leakage flux, they used to make CRT monitors/TV's wiggle in the shop and add hum to any nearby breadboarding.
 

Offline graybeard

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #839 on: February 16, 2019, 10:48:24 pm »
@graybeard:
Quote
Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /eevblog/WTCP_TC202-1.JPG on this server.

Apache/2.2.16 (Debian) Server at diver.net Port 80
>:(
Images load fine on W10 and a Chrome browser.  :-//

It should work now.  I forgot to add eevblog to my allowed referrer list.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #840 on: March 07, 2019, 07:19:54 pm »
UL has finished their product incident report, with response:

"The certification documentation associated with the subject product has been reviewed.  The product is found to be in compliance with the applicable requirements for the associated certifications."  :clap:

I would guess the very old UL 499 (Electric Heating Appliances) fails to call for the power transformer to be an approved component, to any (standard) requiring a protective element such as a thermal cutout or primary fuse, which is required on everything else per UL 1585 or IEC 61558.
 
It still begs the question of why other Weller models, and other makes of soldering stations incorporate primary-side protection, as further proof of an error made that nobody will admit.
Weller's engineering and corporate PR response is a brown-eyed mullet (if I get Australian slang).

Regulatory approvals are extremely political between the standards body and committee, the component and product manufacturer and certification agency- there's no hope to fix screw ups like this.  :palm:
 
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Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #841 on: March 09, 2019, 05:10:16 am »
a brown-eyed mullet (if I get Australian slang).
I think "blind mullet" is the usual expression.
Haven't personally heard of the brown eyed kind.

The "blind mullet at Bondi" aren't as numerous as when I was a kid, it's got something to do with them sending them 4km offshore before release.

 

Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #842 on: March 09, 2019, 05:15:37 am »
'Stunned Mullet' is maybe the more common Australian slang.

The Blind Mullet is a Sydney thing but could also likely be found in a Bogan Bar at closing time (in both Human and the other form)  :-DD

Please use Google if you must  >:D
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Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #843 on: March 09, 2019, 08:17:54 pm »
Brown-eyed mullet: "a turd in the sea (where you're swimming!) "... seems to match this situation  :P
 


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