Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 52890 times)

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Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #100 on: December 18, 2018, 08:59:03 pm »
A little off topic here...
Over the years, I have heard the "facts of life" that at some point, I will have to leave my field (software) and go into management. I did not really like that. I LIKE programming! Can't a good worker stay in his field forever?

Some organizations decouple pay from position.  Rank then depends on who you manage and who manages you.

Quote
I think this is a good reason why the skilled workers SHOULD be promoted into management positions.

Some skilled workers are just not suitable for management on a larger scale.

Quote
When I was reading the comments about fuse size for 120v versus 240v, my first thought was: Why not select a MOV suitable for 120v and put that behind the fuse? Wouldn't that buy enough time to blow the fuse before the transformer smoked? I am not a transformer guy, but my second thought was: Wouldn't the transformer saturate (with 240v), and blow the fuse quickly?

I can tell you right now from personal experience that using a MOV this way is a bad idea.  We had a batch of low voltage MOVs somehow get mixed into production with results better imagined than witnessed; the fuses did not blow and some undergarments needed to be changed.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 09:00:59 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #101 on: December 18, 2018, 09:01:31 pm »
Was never too impressed with Weller. Seem poorly built and not very powerful.

You can only pry my 25 years old Weller from my cold dead hands. Very robust, plenty of power and the newer JBC looks a toddlers toy against it.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2018, 09:31:23 pm »
Comment from Youtube:
Can anyone confirm?



 

Online blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #103 on: December 18, 2018, 09:32:23 pm »
You can only pry my 25 years old Weller from my cold dead hands. Very robust, plenty of power and the newer JBC looks a toddlers toy against it.

OTOH, my WES51 looked like a POS. Bent handle (seriously, the handle and the tip are not concentric) right from the factory.
Once acquired my first Metcal, it was sold for maybe $25.

It's not a German made one, though. I believe all low-end US units are made in Mexico.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #104 on: December 18, 2018, 09:33:30 pm »
Put in a thermal fuse in the transformer and achieve the same end with out burning down the owners home/work.

Would it respond fast enough? Dave said this went up in seconds.

It was literally seconds. If I hadn't pulled the plug and tossed the unit in a box to trap the smoke, the building would have been evacuated and the fire brigade would have been on their way.
 

Online blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2018, 09:35:12 pm »
Comment from Youtube:
Can anyone confirm?

<snip> "temperature of the isolation does not exceed a particular limit".

So it is a word play? The isolation indeed never broke down, but the insulation did, and since it's not covered by the regulation, they decided to slip through?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2018, 09:36:22 pm »
At the primary side, they would have had to use either a mains socket with a built-in fuse holder (which are significantly more expensive)

I doubt it, not at the volumes Weller would be dealing with and likely use across multiple items.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2018, 09:37:08 pm »
I always assumed that Weller was in the typical position (like Fluke and Tektronix) of having been purchased to extract the value of their name and reputation with declining quality and value of their capitol with debt.  For Weller this showed up in design changes to their products years ago and a marked decrease in quality.

I have a WHA3000P, there is nothing cheaply made about it but my WX2D not the same quality but it's still not bottom of the barrel. The biggest change I noticed was the quality of TIPs from Mexico, for a while XNT tips from Mexico were disposable after first use although that problem seems to have been fixed.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2018, 09:37:53 pm »
I have a WES81 230V version and it has a IEC power connector with integrated fuse. So do they only use a primary fuse on the 80 watt model and not on the 50W? Or do they only use a fuse on the 230V model and not on the 110V? Is it only fused for the EU market?  :-//

Someone on Youtube said their EU unit does not have a fuse, but I have yet to see actual visual evidence of this.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2018, 09:40:38 pm »
Comment from Youtube:
Can anyone confirm?
Nothing freely available out there...

One aspect I haven't seen in this discussion is the toxicity of the components of the burning enamel. I suspect this is not qualified by the certification agency (maybe the wire manufacturer) but, for someone like me that always lived with respiratory problems, having a massive ejection of fumes is a health hazard.

Oh well... Fuses FTW.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #110 on: December 18, 2018, 09:42:28 pm »
I am not a transformer guy, but my second thought was: Wouldn't the transformer saturate (with 240v), and blow the fuse quickly?

Yes, that's what happened, except that there was no fuse, so the transformer heated up within seconds and melted all the insulation, which started to short out the turns causing more power to be delivered.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #111 on: December 18, 2018, 09:43:30 pm »
One aspect I haven't seen in this discussion is the toxicity of the components of the burning enamel. I suspect this is not qualified by the certification agency (maybe the wire manufacturer) but, for someone like me that always lived with respiratory problems, having a massive ejection of fumes is a health hazard.

I immediately put my lab carbon filter on full and left it on for a few days.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #112 on: December 18, 2018, 09:46:17 pm »
Sometimes a manufacturer will certify to an old lazy safety standard because it's easier- cheaper and quicker way to get product to market.
Regional differences, between North America UL 499 and rest of the world EN/IEC 60335 are probably the reason a fuse may or may not be seen.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #113 on: December 18, 2018, 09:50:35 pm »
UL 499 is an antique safety standard from an era where soldering irons were just a power cord and a handle with heater.... But here we have a power transformer (component) which can fail partial shorts (shorted turn on primary or secondary)
And the heater was .... a coiled up resistance wire (capable of partial shorts.)

not a dead short but rather a fire hazard
I wasn't aware that copper and steel were flammable.

the transformer draws high current and heats up.
kind of like a heating appliance.
 

Online thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2018, 09:57:11 pm »
its not on the 'wrong side'. You put them on both sides if you want, its better. Plenty of documentation on there. But you always want it on the front side.

You are missing the info from the previous thread. They are using two fuses in series, one is suspiciously mains rated and UL listed, one is not. In this case it makes zero sense to have two fuses in series. Therefor, the mains rated fuse is on the wrong side (according to me).

What's crazy is they have no less than 2 fuses and a massive polyswitch on the secondary side. Not all of those are needed, and that extra secondary fuse could have paid for the primary fuse. It's wacko.

yep, the polyswitch is functionally useless. It will never do anything, unless the air near the transformer secondary somehow heats up enough to trip it, which it won't, because its not thermally coupled.

Agree on this being deliberate, but they are probably saving more than ten cents.
As their secondary protections are hand-mounted, "flying" stuff, they chose not to put those on a PCB with better mounting.
At the primary side, they would have had to use either a mains socket with a built-in fuse holder (which are significantly more expensive) or mount the fuse holder properly (a primary side fuse on flying wires... yuck!) with maybe a total added cost of a few dollars if you count parts and added labor...

This is the first argument that makes sense to me. They had designed the 4A fuse to go on the primary, then it was too costly or labor intensive to find a way to mount it on the primary. Or maybe the regulations do not allow that. So, someone moved it over to the secondary. Ok that is still hard to believe.
 

Offline lowimpedance

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2018, 10:54:56 pm »
Put in a thermal fuse in the transformer and achieve the same end with out burning down the owners home/work.

Would it respond fast enough? Dave said this went up in seconds.

Smoke perhaps, what about actual flames and heat ??, which a thermal fuse would presumably be the proper choice as opposed to just a regular fuse.
They do come in different temp and current ratings.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 11:05:07 pm by lowimpedance »
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2018, 11:17:19 pm »
Smoke perhaps, what about actual flames and heat ??

The lack of flames is a small consideration when the self extinguishing materials they used are spewing bromine compounds into the air.
 

Offline JustMeHere

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #117 on: December 18, 2018, 11:22:20 pm »
Comment from Youtube:
Can anyone confirm?

I've skimmed the IEE document.  Frequently used is the term "rated voltage supply".  It says stuff like the coil should not get to hot when use at "rated voltage supply".  They also say "normal use" a good bit.  It looks like the overload only needs to protect an overload of 1.1x "rated voltage supply" and "normal use" is used in that section too.

In general plugging a 120v rated device into a 240v supply seems to invalidate the protections dictated in the document.
 

Offline Grapsus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2018, 12:02:21 am »
Here is a WSD50 from 1999 still going strong.

Like many pepople here I used to have a lot of confidence in this brand as a brand making solid tools that will outlive you with spare parts available.
It really doesn't matter if it's legal or not to omit the primary fuse. The fact that they cut a corner where even chinese clones don't dare to do it means that this company has gone to shit.
 
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Online MasterTech

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Respondsd
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2018, 12:03:49 am »
That symbol states that the transformer is safe to short-circuit or overload at the secondary. The IEC 61558 norm gives tables as to the maximum temperature it may reach, it may be classsified as inherently or non-inherently short circuit proof, depending on if the temperature self regulates or there is a protective device, and thats what the ptc and fuse are doing at the secondary.

I dont see how this protects fails at the primary and makes the use of a fuse unnecessary
 

Offline Uncle Bob

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #120 on: December 19, 2018, 01:38:29 am »
I have a WES81 230V version and it has a IEC power connector with integrated fuse. So do they only use a primary fuse on the 80 watt model and not on the 50W? Or do they only use a fuse on the 230V model and not on the 110V? Is it only fused for the EU market?  :-//

Someone on Youtube said their EU unit does not have a fuse, but I have yet to see actual visual evidence of this.

I'm new here but I am trying to upload a picture of the inside of my WE1010 bought here in Sweden in October.

 
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Offline lowimpedance

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #121 on: December 19, 2018, 01:52:28 am »
Smoke perhaps, what about actual flames and heat ??

The lack of flames is a small consideration when the self extinguishing materials they used are spewing bromine compounds into the air.

That maybe, but isn't all the talk about fusing which would hopefully have mitigated the emissions to some extent to start with.
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline santiall

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #122 on: December 19, 2018, 02:16:16 am »
Comment from Youtube:
Can anyone confirm?





yes, that's correct and also that a mains fuse isn't compulsory as long as other safety requirements are met.

in your case, I guess the test would be happening under 'abnormal operation conditions' and in some cases also under 'reasonably foreseeable misuse' where it is expected that someone could set a voltage selector in the wrong position or insert a battery backwards. I'm not saying that this station complies or not but I'd not be surprised if it passes the tests even there is 'a bit of smoke' as long as there was no fire or explosion.

It may also well have happened that the transformer has been preapproved so there are some tests that are taken as a pass even if in this particular use case it may have occured a fault.
Also take into account that in the past the safety requirements for NA (USA + Canada) could have be more relaxed than now and since those stations are intended for 120V, and they don't have voltage selector (do they?) they may just assume it is simply not possible for anyone to use them at 240V in the intended market.

I'm speculating a bit, I'm far from an expert in safety standards, but as per my experience the situation can be quite convoluted and there are many ifs, could, should...
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #123 on: December 19, 2018, 03:14:38 am »
I have a WES81 230V version and it has a IEC power connector with integrated fuse. So do they only use a primary fuse on the 80 watt model and not on the 50W? Or do they only use a fuse on the 230V model and not on the 110V? Is it only fused for the EU market?  :-//

Someone on Youtube said their EU unit does not have a fuse, but I have yet to see actual visual evidence of this.

I'm new here but I am trying to upload a picture of the inside of my WE1010 bought here in Sweden in October.

Thanks. Any fuse further in the primary wiring?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #124 on: December 19, 2018, 03:16:18 am »
I'm speculating a bit, I'm far from an expert in safety standards, but as per my experience the situation can be quite convoluted and there are many ifs, could, should...

Which is why any company with any sense what so ever just puts a primary mains fuse. Even the cheapest of cheap crap has one.
 
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