Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 159332 times)

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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #200 on: December 19, 2018, 07:15:35 pm »
OK, I just checked my Weller WX2 station (110V)
Here's the photo:



 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #201 on: December 19, 2018, 07:20:39 pm »
One more note.
When I was 8 years old my mom asked what I wanted for my birthday. As any budding wire nut would say - "Mom, I want a soldering iron!" That Weller iron still works and I'm 73 years old, so you do the math.

Me, I'll stick with my Weller station.
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #202 on: December 19, 2018, 07:34:56 pm »
That would happen regardless if it was fused or not. The fuse would only work if the iron got down to some point on the board where it caused a short. But look at the picture, does that look like someone who should own a soldering station or anything that gets above 20C?

I think you missed the tongue-in-cheek satirical humour on that one...   ;)

Right!! I missed it because I'm still scratching my head that people actually complained about a manufacturer after plugging the thing into 230 volts! I'd love to see them around high voltage, I guess you can't complain to the grid supplier if you're dead!
This whole thing is so preposterous to me that I can't stop laughing!
 
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #203 on: December 19, 2018, 07:37:58 pm »
Quote
Thank you for contacting Apex Tool Group.
...
This is no different to any number of other products that also have transformers include literally millions of plugpacks, TV’s, radios, Stereos, battery chargers and other small appliances, very few of which contain primary fuses.

When is the last time anyone has seen a plugpack with a transformer inside? Every major brand is using SMPS now due to standby power regulations (and cost). A modern TV without a fuse, what?
The cheapest of crap might have a fusible resistor instead of a glass fuse, but that is better than nothing (and probably questionably certified). Toaster is really the only thing I can think of that is a modern device without a fuse (that I am aware of).

This guy is living 20 years ago.

No, he's comparing apples to apples. The Weller has a transformer so do a lot of higher end audio products, etc.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #204 on: December 19, 2018, 07:56:38 pm »
Toasters do have a thermal fuse in them, somewhere in the element path. Might not look like a fuse but is there in some form or the other.

As to Weller, they make different transformers for 120V and 230V, different standards to conform to with each one in different countries, so much easier to conform one to EU specs ( which require primary side thermal fuse) and the other to the old US spec. Cheaper than having to recertify every single product again, with a major part change like that. you can see that in pics of them, US one no fuse, EU one has the tell tale third connection showing they have a fuse. My Weller WTCP-S, from The Cooper group 11-91, does have both primary side 0.315A slow blow fuse and thermal fuse in the transformer primary. This is the "travel iron' as it goes out to functions, even though the magnastat switches, heaters and tips themselves are getting expensive. Can buy a Solomon complete for the price of just the heater, tip and magnastat.
 
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #205 on: December 19, 2018, 07:59:38 pm »
Toasters do have a thermal fuse in them, somewhere in the element path. Might not look like a fuse but is there in some form or the other.

As to Weller, they make different transformers for 120V and 230V, different standards to conform to with each one in different countries, so much easier to conform one to EU specs ( which require primary side thermal fuse) and the other to the old US spec. Cheaper than having to recertify every single product again, with a major part change like that. you can see that in pics of them, US one no fuse, EU one has the tell tale third connection showing they have a fuse. My Weller WTCP-S, from The Cooper group 11-91, does have both primary side 0.315A slow blow fuse and thermal fuse in the transformer primary. This is the "travel iron' as it goes out to functions, even though the magnastat switches, heaters and tips themselves are getting expensive. Can buy a Solomon complete for the price of just the heater, tip and magnastat.

My US one does have a fuse, again, here's the pic:
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #206 on: December 19, 2018, 08:06:40 pm »
Quote
do you own wall warts with huge iron transformers in them?
Only one or two.

For low power, lets say 10W for example, an SMPS wall wart will make a lot of sense from a manufacturing point of view. In general they will be flyback supplies and will be "universal" i.e. they will work from 80V to 265V or at least they should if they've been designed properly. They will also have to pass transient, surge and maybe ESD tests as well as conducted and radiated EMC. If it accidentally gets shorted out because of a capacitor or connector failure how hot is it going get ?

For higher power, lets say 150W and that would include laptop supplies for example, you can either do flyback or forward topology it doesn't matter it's whatever is cheapest and meets the safety and EMC standards for that particular product and there is a lot more design work and testing involved when switched mode supplies get bigger.

Those who say use an SMPS have probably never designed one that is guaranteed safe from an isolation point of view, that is reliable and will work for a decade or more and one that is squeaky clean from an EMC point of view. It takes a lot more R&D budget than some piss ant soldering iron manufacturer can affford so that's why they use big lumps of iron for voltage translation.

If you're talking about phone chargers, laptop supplies, TV's or any whitegoods you could be talking about 100's of thousands or millions and it would nice if they were universal, 80V to 265V, so you get a bigger development budget. You don't have to go to school to learn economics, just use some common sense.

 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 08:12:18 pm by chris_leyson »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #207 on: December 19, 2018, 08:11:28 pm »
No, he's comparing apples to apples. The Weller has a transformer so do a lot of higher end audio products, etc.

Not sure which high end audio product you are referring to, something like a Yamaha or Sony integrated stereo amplifier will all have mains fusing before the transformer.
If you are referring to $2k+ hand built audiophile amps, I don't think that is a reasonable comparison.


Those who say use an SMPS have probably never designed one that is guaranteed safe from an isolation point of view, that is reliable and will work for a decade or more and one that is squeaky clean from an EMC point of view. It takes a lot more R&D budget than some piss ant soldering iron manufacturer can affford so that's why they use big lumps of iron for voltage translation.

https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/RPS-75-24/1866-4083-ND/7706111

Heres a medical grade 75W PSU for $22.
Not saying it would be suitable to use for the product, I'm sure a transformer costs them less, maybe $5-10?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 08:24:59 pm by thm_w »
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Offline eliocor

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #208 on: December 19, 2018, 08:13:11 pm »
Please take care that the 60950 norm cannot be applied for soldering irons: Quote
1.1.1 Equipment covered by this standard
This standard is applicable to mains-powered or battery-powered information technology equipment, including electrical business equipment and associated equipment, with a RATED VOLTAGE not exceeding 600 V.
This standard is also applicable to such information technology equipment:

− designed for use as telecommunication terminal equipment and TELECOMMUNICATION NETWORK infrastructure equipment, regardless of the source of power;
 
− designed and intended to be connected directly to, or used as infrastructure equipment in, a CABLE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, regardless of the source of power; 
 
− designed to use the AC MAINS SUPPLY as a communication transmission medium (see Clause 6, Note 4 and 7.1, Note 4).
 This standard is also applicable to components and subassemblies intended for incorporation in information technology equipment. It is not expected that such components and subassemblies comply with every aspect of the standard, provided that the complete information technology equipment, incorporating such components and subassemblies, does comply

But I add: if you follow this norm it would be A LOT better!!!
 

Offline TassiloH

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #209 on: December 19, 2018, 08:14:35 pm »
I don't know how Weller addresses 230V stations. They may simply tap off one side or phase and if the center leg opens the station loses voltage too. What happens with wall transformers where you are? Do you get smoking transformers? If what you're saying is true then a neutral leg failure would be doing major damage with appliances wouldn't it? Does Weller make 3 phase stations? I took a quick look and all I see are single phase.

If there is a neutral fault (I admit this is rare, but not non-existent), there are indeed broken small appliances. I don't think Weller makes 3-phase stations (does not make sense for the low power). Three-phase outlets are generally not available unless in special circumstances, but there is 3-phase power to most homes, each phase (to neutral) is used for some of the 1-phase 230V outlets in a building, and all three phases (400V phase to phase) for things like tankless water heaters (at home) or large motors (commercially).
 

Offline eliocor

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #210 on: December 19, 2018, 08:17:28 pm »
I forgot to mention: I'm a really happy user of several (de/soldering) Weller stations.
All of them are mains fused, but I live in Europe!!!
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #211 on: December 19, 2018, 08:22:11 pm »
From a safety point of view you are always going to get better creapage and clearance from a big lump of iron, try doing that with an SMPS transformer. Besides, I don't want another SMPS noise source on my bench.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #212 on: December 19, 2018, 08:22:35 pm »
Please take care that the 60950 norm cannot be applied for soldering irons: Quote
1.1.1 Equipment covered by this standard
This standard is applicable to mains-powered or battery-powered information technology equipment, including electrical business equipment and associated equipment, with a RATED VOLTAGE not exceeding 600 V.
This standard is also applicable to such information technology equipment:

− designed for use as telecommunication terminal equipment and TELECOMMUNICATION NETWORK infrastructure equipment, regardless of the source of power;
 
− designed and intended to be connected directly to, or used as infrastructure equipment in, a CABLE DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, regardless of the source of power; 
 
− designed to use the AC MAINS SUPPLY as a communication transmission medium (see Clause 6, Note 4 and 7.1, Note 4).
 This standard is also applicable to components and subassemblies intended for incorporation in information technology equipment. It is not expected that such components and subassemblies comply with every aspect of the standard, provided that the complete information technology equipment, incorporating such components and subassemblies, does comply

But I add: if you follow this norm it would be A LOT better!!!
I don't see why soldering station would not fall under information technology equipment.
Quote
Information Technology Equipment (ITE) is electrical/electronic equipment that inputs, stores, modifies, or outputs data. Typical examples of IT Equipment are servers, personal computers, office equipment, data storage devices, telecommunication equipment, display monitors, printers and various IT accessories.
It certainly inputs, stores and modifies setting data and outputs it on display.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #213 on: December 19, 2018, 08:30:34 pm »
If there is a neutral fault (I admit this is rare, but not non-existent), there are indeed broken small appliances. I don't think Weller makes 3-phase stations (does not make sense for the low power). Three-phase outlets are generally not available unless in special circumstances, but there is 3-phase power to most homes, each phase (to neutral) is used for some of the 1-phase 230V outlets in a building, and all three phases (400V phase to phase) for things like tankless water heaters (at home) or large motors (commercially).
You may have missed the point here.  Sure it makes no sense to have a hand-held soldering apparatus operated from 3-phase power.
But in many places, that "single-phase" circuit is just one of the three phases in the larger scheme of power distribution. And establishing the proper voltage depends on the "neutral" connection. If that fails, in some conditions, you could have considerably more than 230-240 volts in your wall outlet.  That is just one of the hazards that fuses protect us from.
 
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #214 on: December 19, 2018, 08:35:57 pm »
From a safety point of view you are always going to get better creapage and clearance from a big lump of iron, try doing that with an SMPS transformer. Besides, I don't want another SMPS noise source on my bench.

I agree, I'm happy there's an xformer in the Weller.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #215 on: December 19, 2018, 08:42:07 pm »
Let's blame Weller for my stupidity.

I don't think the crux of the matter is blame but instead frustration.

Frustration happens when we have an unmet expectation. Case in point, the expectation is that a very reputable brand of electrical products would add a century-old safeguard mechanism to all of their products regardless of being forced by an external agent (regulatory agency or certification norm). Instead, when an inquiry was made, the company replied with a garden variety response from a public relations department that did not understand the core of the matter.

It is an entirely personal opinion if this frustration is important enough to blame and shame the company publicly.

Blame would be the scenario where Dave or the others were asking for reparation for the damage caused. I don't think anyone is blaming Weller for what happened - although one could argue there was a small possibility of lesser damage if the century-old safeguard mechanism was used, but asking for reparation is not reasonable.

At any rate, this discussion would be bound to happen anyways, especially due to the competitor's approach to fuse protection and the price level of Weller's products. Not only Weller but many other corporations degraded severely in the last decades in pursuit of market dominance / lower cost.
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #216 on: December 19, 2018, 08:46:37 pm »
No, he's comparing apples to apples. The Weller has a transformer so do a lot of higher end audio products, etc.

Not sure which high end audio product you are referring to, something like a Yamaha or Sony integrated stereo amplifier will all have mains fusing before the transformer.
If you are referring to $2k+ hand built audiophile amps, I don't think that is a reasonable comparison.



Weller cited other products with xformers as a comparison not SMPS. Again, my Weller has the transformer and it's fused. I don't know what model was plugged into the 230 mains but it wasn't a WX2 from the US running 120.
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #217 on: December 19, 2018, 08:55:40 pm »
Let's blame Weller for my stupidity.

I don't think the crux of the matter is blame but instead frustration.

Frustration happens when we have an unmet expectation. Case in point, the expectation is that a very reputable brand of electrical products would add a century-old safeguard mechanism to all of their products regardless of being forced by an external agent (regulatory agency or certification norm). Instead, when an inquiry was made, the company replied with a garden variety response from a public relations department that did not understand the core of the matter.

It is an entirely personal opinion if this frustration is important enough to blame and shame the company publicly.

Blame would be the scenario where Dave or the others were asking for reparation for the damage caused. I don't think anyone is blaming Weller for what happened - although one could argue there was a small possibility of lesser damage if the century-old safeguard mechanism was used, but asking for reparation is not reasonable.

At any rate, this discussion would be bound to happen anyways, especially due to the competitor's approach to fuse protection and the price level of Weller's products. Not only Weller but many other corporations degraded severely in the last decades in pursuit of market dominance / lower cost.

What was the price tier level of the unit? I'm running the fused pro station. I've beat this thing up for a couple of years now and it has run flawlessly. The tips last a very long time too. The heat sink on the back is specifically molded to the station and massive. You can see there was a lot of thought that went into it along with quality parts. OK, it may die on me in a month but right now there isn't anything I'd trade it for. I've got Weller irons from 25 years ago that still work too. The WX2 irons have a balanced feel and are small , really great for 0402 SMD work which I do from time to time.

I guess you get what you pay for, this thing wasn't cheap, maybe the bottom line of their irons cut corners but not this model, I think they made it for professional work.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #218 on: December 19, 2018, 09:12:13 pm »
"Equipment intended to be energized from a MAINS supply shall be protected by fuses, circuit-breakers, thermal cut-outs, impedance limiting circuits or similar means, to provide protection against excessive current being drawn from the MAINS in case of a fault in the equipment."

So a fuse is not required. The task described can be achieved even with unspecified "similar means".

EN 61558-1 Safety of power transformers does mention:
3.3.7 intentional weak part
part other than overload protective device (fuses, circuit-breaker, thermal cut-outs, ...) intended to rupture under conditions of  abnormal operation to prevent the occurrence of a condition  which  could  impair compliance with this standard. Such a part may be a replaceable component, such as a resistor or a capacitor or a non-replaceable part of a component such as an inaccessible weak point in a winding."

BUT no sign of that in the Weller 120VAC transformer- the primary copper wire is too thick to act as a fuse.
 

Offline eliocor

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #219 on: December 19, 2018, 09:14:36 pm »
Quote from: wraper on Today at 21:22:35
I don't see why soldering station would not fall under information technology equipment.
 
 
Surely you have never certified some IT technology equipment against 60950, so your answer....
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #220 on: December 19, 2018, 09:25:09 pm »
"Equipment intended to be energized from a MAINS supply shall be protected by fuses, circuit-breakers, thermal cut-outs, impedance limiting circuits or similar means, to provide protection against excessive current being drawn from the MAINS in case of a fault in the equipment."

So a fuse is not required. The task described can be achieved even with unspecified "similar means".

EN 61558-1 Safety of power transformers does mention:
3.3.7 intentional weak part
part other than overload protective device (fuses, circuit-breaker, thermal cut-outs, ...) intended to rupture under conditions of  abnormal operation to prevent the occurrence of a condition  which  could  impair compliance with this standard. Such a part may be a replaceable component, such as a resistor or a capacitor or a non-replaceable part of a component such as an inaccessible weak point in a winding."

BUT no sign of that in the Weller 120VAC transformer- the primary copper wire is too thick to act as a fuse.
About what gauge? Maybe a cheaper product would have blown the winding before it smoked?
 

Offline boffin

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #221 on: December 19, 2018, 09:30:55 pm »
Using a global-standard IEC 60320 C14 power inlet on a gadget hard-wired for 120V seems like just asking for trouble.
Where is is trivial to plug in your power cord from whatever your local mains voltage is.

Exactly, especially with the voltage label on the bottom. Why any engineer or large company like this selling professional products to a professional market would go out of their way to avoid a fuse in such a product is beyond me.

And working in a data centre, C14 @ 208V L1/L2/G vs  120V L1/N/G is a pretty common sight.

 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #222 on: December 19, 2018, 09:49:15 pm »
About what gauge? Maybe a cheaper product would have blown the winding before it smoked?

For low VA transformers, the primary copper wire melts (fuses) in an exposed area, on the lead in to the winding coil. I think it's from the wire getting less cooling in open air, compared to being wrapped in the coil.
Fusing currents for copper wire are surprisingly high, example 30AWG 10A after 10 seconds according to Preece 1883 tests. It's highly imprecise and using too skinny a wire limits the transformer's power due to I2R losses. I think this is why you don't see larger ~60-100VA up transformers relying on the primary winding as the fuse, or maybe inrush currents are too high.
Instead manufacturers just put in a thermal fuse.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #223 on: December 19, 2018, 10:13:11 pm »
Of course its not safe it made a shit load of easily preventable toxic smoke.
your not supposed to ...  smoke the joint up ...
 safety issue. so is toxic smoke... lose a room to smoke for 3 days? (who would make their employees  or students work in that smell??) NO.
you know what happens when you make a bunch of smoke at work? people think you are a fucking clown
Plus: Smoke is a hazard all by itself
What part is going to make plenty of smoke
Will it catch on fire or 'just' smoke until mains is removed or the short has 'fixed' itself :palm:.
some people seem to be implying that no failure of any device may ever be permitted to expel smoke


We are still talking about soldering irons right? The thing that makes smoke every time you use it?

The thing who's job it is to get hot enough to melt things, and could damage things, and burn or hurt you ....

Dave's Weller couldn't even manage that. LOL

I say plug it back in and see what it can really do!

« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:16:24 pm by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #224 on: December 19, 2018, 10:25:01 pm »
About what gauge? Maybe a cheaper product would have blown the winding before it smoked?

For low VA transformers, the primary copper wire melts (fuses) in an exposed area, on the lead in to the winding coil. I think it's from the wire getting less cooling in open air, compared to being wrapped in the coil.
Fusing currents for copper wire are surprisingly high, example 30AWG 10A after 10 seconds according to Preece 1883 tests. It's highly imprecise and using too skinny a wire limits the transformer's power due to I2R losses. I think this is why you don't see larger ~60-100VA up transformers relying on the primary winding as the fuse, or maybe inrush currents are too high.
Instead manufacturers just put in a thermal fuse.

OK, makes sense but for some odd reason I always thought a wire driven past it's current ability would get hottest in the middle.
 


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