Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 54876 times)

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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #225 on: December 19, 2018, 08:55:40 pm »
Let's blame Weller for my stupidity.

I don't think the crux of the matter is blame but instead frustration.

Frustration happens when we have an unmet expectation. Case in point, the expectation is that a very reputable brand of electrical products would add a century-old safeguard mechanism to all of their products regardless of being forced by an external agent (regulatory agency or certification norm). Instead, when an inquiry was made, the company replied with a garden variety response from a public relations department that did not understand the core of the matter.

It is an entirely personal opinion if this frustration is important enough to blame and shame the company publicly.

Blame would be the scenario where Dave or the others were asking for reparation for the damage caused. I don't think anyone is blaming Weller for what happened - although one could argue there was a small possibility of lesser damage if the century-old safeguard mechanism was used, but asking for reparation is not reasonable.

At any rate, this discussion would be bound to happen anyways, especially due to the competitor's approach to fuse protection and the price level of Weller's products. Not only Weller but many other corporations degraded severely in the last decades in pursuit of market dominance / lower cost.

What was the price tier level of the unit? I'm running the fused pro station. I've beat this thing up for a couple of years now and it has run flawlessly. The tips last a very long time too. The heat sink on the back is specifically molded to the station and massive. You can see there was a lot of thought that went into it along with quality parts. OK, it may die on me in a month but right now there isn't anything I'd trade it for. I've got Weller irons from 25 years ago that still work too. The WX2 irons have a balanced feel and are small , really great for 0402 SMD work which I do from time to time.

I guess you get what you pay for, this thing wasn't cheap, maybe the bottom line of their irons cut corners but not this model, I think they made it for professional work.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #226 on: December 19, 2018, 09:12:13 pm »
"Equipment intended to be energized from a MAINS supply shall be protected by fuses, circuit-breakers, thermal cut-outs, impedance limiting circuits or similar means, to provide protection against excessive current being drawn from the MAINS in case of a fault in the equipment."

So a fuse is not required. The task described can be achieved even with unspecified "similar means".

EN 61558-1 Safety of power transformers does mention:
3.3.7 intentional weak part
part other than overload protective device (fuses, circuit-breaker, thermal cut-outs, ...) intended to rupture under conditions of  abnormal operation to prevent the occurrence of a condition  which  could  impair compliance with this standard. Such a part may be a replaceable component, such as a resistor or a capacitor or a non-replaceable part of a component such as an inaccessible weak point in a winding."

BUT no sign of that in the Weller 120VAC transformer- the primary copper wire is too thick to act as a fuse.
 

Offline eliocor

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #227 on: December 19, 2018, 09:14:36 pm »
Quote from: wraper on Today at 21:22:35
I don't see why soldering station would not fall under information technology equipment.
 
 
Surely you have never certified some IT technology equipment against 60950, so your answer....
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #228 on: December 19, 2018, 09:25:09 pm »
"Equipment intended to be energized from a MAINS supply shall be protected by fuses, circuit-breakers, thermal cut-outs, impedance limiting circuits or similar means, to provide protection against excessive current being drawn from the MAINS in case of a fault in the equipment."

So a fuse is not required. The task described can be achieved even with unspecified "similar means".

EN 61558-1 Safety of power transformers does mention:
3.3.7 intentional weak part
part other than overload protective device (fuses, circuit-breaker, thermal cut-outs, ...) intended to rupture under conditions of  abnormal operation to prevent the occurrence of a condition  which  could  impair compliance with this standard. Such a part may be a replaceable component, such as a resistor or a capacitor or a non-replaceable part of a component such as an inaccessible weak point in a winding."

BUT no sign of that in the Weller 120VAC transformer- the primary copper wire is too thick to act as a fuse.
About what gauge? Maybe a cheaper product would have blown the winding before it smoked?
 

Offline boffin

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #229 on: December 19, 2018, 09:30:55 pm »
Using a global-standard IEC 60320 C14 power inlet on a gadget hard-wired for 120V seems like just asking for trouble.
Where is is trivial to plug in your power cord from whatever your local mains voltage is.

Exactly, especially with the voltage label on the bottom. Why any engineer or large company like this selling professional products to a professional market would go out of their way to avoid a fuse in such a product is beyond me.

And working in a data centre, C14 @ 208V L1/L2/G vs  120V L1/N/G is a pretty common sight.

 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #230 on: December 19, 2018, 09:49:15 pm »
About what gauge? Maybe a cheaper product would have blown the winding before it smoked?

For low VA transformers, the primary copper wire melts (fuses) in an exposed area, on the lead in to the winding coil. I think it's from the wire getting less cooling in open air, compared to being wrapped in the coil.
Fusing currents for copper wire are surprisingly high, example 30AWG 10A after 10 seconds according to Preece 1883 tests. It's highly imprecise and using too skinny a wire limits the transformer's power due to I2R losses. I think this is why you don't see larger ~60-100VA up transformers relying on the primary winding as the fuse, or maybe inrush currents are too high.
Instead manufacturers just put in a thermal fuse.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2018, 10:13:11 pm »
Of course its not safe it made a shit load of easily preventable toxic smoke.
your not supposed to ...  smoke the joint up ...
 safety issue. so is toxic smoke... lose a room to smoke for 3 days? (who would make their employees  or students work in that smell??) NO.
you know what happens when you make a bunch of smoke at work? people think you are a fucking clown
Plus: Smoke is a hazard all by itself
What part is going to make plenty of smoke
Will it catch on fire or 'just' smoke until mains is removed or the short has 'fixed' itself :palm:.
some people seem to be implying that no failure of any device may ever be permitted to expel smoke


We are still talking about soldering irons right? The thing that makes smoke every time you use it?

The thing who's job it is to get hot enough to melt things, and could damage things, and burn or hurt you ....

Dave's Weller couldn't even manage that. LOL

I say plug it back in and see what it can really do!

« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:16:24 pm by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #232 on: December 19, 2018, 10:25:01 pm »
About what gauge? Maybe a cheaper product would have blown the winding before it smoked?

For low VA transformers, the primary copper wire melts (fuses) in an exposed area, on the lead in to the winding coil. I think it's from the wire getting less cooling in open air, compared to being wrapped in the coil.
Fusing currents for copper wire are surprisingly high, example 30AWG 10A after 10 seconds according to Preece 1883 tests. It's highly imprecise and using too skinny a wire limits the transformer's power due to I2R losses. I think this is why you don't see larger ~60-100VA up transformers relying on the primary winding as the fuse, or maybe inrush currents are too high.
Instead manufacturers just put in a thermal fuse.

OK, makes sense but for some odd reason I always thought a wire driven past it's current ability would get hottest in the middle.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #233 on: December 19, 2018, 10:28:17 pm »
Smoke from virtually all plastics is extremely unhealthy, even if its not recognized to be so yet, innumerable dangerous chemicals were just grandfathered in with no testing because they have been used for a long time.

The world of plastics is a ticking time bomb especially because of so called endocrine disrupting chemicals comminly used in many of them that persist in and build up in the environment and in people, causing cryptic effects related to many aspects of our biology.. particularly those that are hormonally related. (The list of serious - in many cases - like cancers, life threatening conditions which seem to be rising because of these chemicals is very long.)

Increasing exposure to these chemicals which in many cases were known to be unhealthy before they started being used commonly, is known to be causing a plethora of extremely costly health conditions throughout the entire world as the amounts of them in peoples bodies increases. (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5244983/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27003928

Also, "flame retardants" used to slow down combustion in many products are a set of chemicals that contains some extremely nasty chemicals many of which that have known, serious health effects, also they persist in the body and its exceedingly hard to get rid of them.

Like many plasticizers, many flame retardants also cause endocrine disruption.

It seems that rising exposure to EDCs is also behind some substantial amount of the rising rates of metabolic disorders (many) and obesity we're seeing, as obesity and related health issues in both animals and humans clearly increase in direct proportion to obesogen exposure to both the animal/person and its mother, in other words, for some reason we don't understand this exposure's obesogenic effect is inherited. 

They change the body's energy set points.

All of this is the subject of a great deal of research right now and what is emerging isn't good. Its terrifying. It threatens both human and animal reproduction.

Because of exposure to various chemicals, as a group electronics industry workers are at substantially increased risk it seems.

Example search: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=endocrine+disruption+electronics

For this reason people should do as much as they can to reduce or eliminate their exposure to whatever can be reduced, such as fumes generated by hot plastics and other substances used in electronics. Also minimize dermal exposure by washing hands frequently. Minimize dust in the environment by vacuuming with a HEPA vacuum while aggressively ventilating to minimize inhaling dusts. It might even make sense to wear a high quality (I wear a magenta P-100 half face HEPA particulate filter face mask) while doing so, thats what I do.

 

« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:55:59 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #234 on: December 19, 2018, 10:31:53 pm »
How about an EEVblog survey on the Weller WE1010NA primary-fuse issue?

1. It's missing the fuse, fix it already - humans make mistakes
2. It doesn't require the fuse, leave the product design and certification as-is, and spank the engineers
3. Include a complimentary fire extinguisher with every Weller product
4. Instead buy a Hakko/Metcal which has already has the fuse
5. Pull a Volkswagen and deny any allegations for months
6. Announce the new "vape" option where you can smoke in the lab with this station
 
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Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #235 on: December 19, 2018, 10:33:50 pm »
"will reduce potential hazards"... except, you know.... fire hazards :-DD
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #236 on: December 19, 2018, 10:38:24 pm »
How about an EEVblog survey on the Weller WE1010NA primary-fuse issue?

1. It's missing the fuse, fix it already - humans make mistakes
2. It doesn't require the fuse, leave the product design and certification as-is, and spank the engineers
3. Include a complimentary fire extinguisher with every Weller product
4. Instead buy a Hakko/Metcal which has already has the fuse
5. Pull a Volkswagen and deny any allegations for months
6. Announce the new "vape" option where you can smoke in the lab with this station

You crack me up, as if this topic wasn't already hilarious enough!
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #237 on: December 19, 2018, 10:45:58 pm »
Since a lot of people have them why not post an easy to follow set of instructions on where and how to add ones own, with the arguments for doing it even if they are technically 'legal' without it?
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #238 on: December 19, 2018, 10:48:45 pm »
Quote
They were drafting an electrical safety standard. Not a convenience standard.

This thread has nothing to do with "standards",

It doesn't? Weller claims it's a certified product and complies to applicable standards. So the that begs the question if that's correct or not.

I have no doubt it.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #239 on: December 19, 2018, 10:54:23 pm »
minimize dermal exposure ...Minimize dust ... aggressively ventilating to minimize inhaling dusts... wear a magenta P-100 half face HEPA particulate filter face mask

absolutely.  Of course don't forget about eye gear ... gotta protect those peepers from solder splashes. Might as well wear a full face mask. You should probably wear gloves too for the dermatitis. Ah, you know what. Why stop there? Might as well do it right ...






 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #240 on: December 19, 2018, 11:03:54 pm »
They change the body's energy set points.
I heard that exposure to dihydrogen monoxide can cause asphyxiation, tissue damage, and is a major contributor to acid rain.
Ingesting it upsets your hydration balance and makes you less thirsty!
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #241 on: December 19, 2018, 11:06:27 pm »
I'm just explaining how I try to minimize inhaling dust - I'm just sharing that fact.

My home isnt an electronics factory nor do I solder that much I am sure compared to lots of other people here. Still I try and especially if I did more of it I would REALLy try to minimize exposure to things commonly encountered, such as heated or burning plastic fumes - or whatever.. fluxes, various dusts..

Yes, it makes sense for workers to get the best practicable protection. For a manufacturer, that would mean efforts to reduce dust and solvent exposures exhausting any fumes and dust outside and replacing that air with fresh air, and wearing non-latex gloves if they were handling dangerous materials. Not being around plastics that were getting hot. (even if they are supposed to be able to handle the temperature, personally I don't think thats healthy)

And washing hands.

Many of the chemicals and materials used in electronics at all stages of the product life cycle are hazardous to varying degrees. That's commonly known. Its not speculation. Common sense dictates that people use adequate measures to protect themselves.

minimize dermal exposure ...Minimize dust ... aggressively ventilating to minimize inhaling dusts... wear a magenta P-100 half face HEPA particulate filter face mask

absolutely.  Of course don't forget about eye gear ... gotta protect those peepers from solder splashes. Might as well wear a full face mask. You should probably wear gloves too for the dermatitis. Ah, you know what. Why stop there? Might as well do it right ...

« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 11:09:35 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #242 on: December 19, 2018, 11:12:41 pm »
Water is essential to human life while rising levels of EDCs threaten it's continuation. They add up in so called 'cocktail effects' so what are claimed to be safe levels of one become unsafe in the real world environment because there are dozens of them.

With the links I posted higher up you can judge for yourself.

They change the body's energy set points.
I heard that exposure to dihydrogen monoxide can cause asphyxiation, tissue damage, and is a major contributor to acid rain.
Ingesting it upsets your hydration balance and makes you less thirsty!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 11:18:11 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #243 on: December 19, 2018, 11:16:40 pm »
Quote
They were drafting an electrical safety standard. Not a convenience standard.

This thread has nothing to do with "standards",

It doesn't? Weller claims it's a certified product and complies to applicable standards. So the that begs the question if that's correct or not.

I have no doubt it.

I'm also questioning the safety standard. UL 499 originated in 1931 so it's got a huge legacy.
A problem with zillions of safety standards is having a zillion committees and as the years get along, the standards are different and miss coverage of certain faults and unsafe scenarios.

Why should a product with a power transformer have such different requirements whether in a soldering station, clock radio, stereo, control panel, bench multimeter etc. ?
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #244 on: December 19, 2018, 11:22:13 pm »
minimize dermal exposure ...Minimize dust ... aggressively ventilating to minimize inhaling dusts... wear a magenta P-100 half face HEPA particulate filter face mask

absolutely.  Of course don't forget about eye gear ... gotta protect those peepers from solder splashes. Might as well wear a full face mask. You should probably wear gloves too for the dermatitis. Ah, you know what. Why stop there? Might as well do it right ...








I got one of those suits. My neighbor started shooting at me - he thought I was an alien. I figured I'm safer just breathing all the crap I'm bombarded with on a daily basis.
By the way I've been soldering, welding, machining and grinding for 6 decades. My doctor told me I'm in the top 1% of healthiest people he sees. My advice.... keep breathing and eat lots of vegetables.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 11:26:48 pm by Robaroni »
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #245 on: December 19, 2018, 11:46:13 pm »
I'm also questioning the safety standard. UL 499 originated in 1931 so it's got a huge legacy.

And it probably wouldn't have provided for or taken into account that one day products and equipment would be readily available for anyone to purchase from anywhere else. Nowadays with global shopping and shipping this should perhaps be a consideration with all electrical products to avoid these types of hazards.
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #246 on: December 20, 2018, 12:09:26 am »
I'm also questioning the safety standard. UL 499 originated in 1931 so it's got a huge legacy.

And it probably wouldn't have provided for or taken into account that one day products and equipment would be readily available for anyone to purchase from anywhere else. Nowadays with global shopping and shipping this should perhaps be a consideration with all electrical products to avoid these types of hazards.

Or you could just plug it into the correct voltage....
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 12:35:51 am by Robaroni »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #247 on: December 20, 2018, 12:14:09 am »
What's happening is international harmonization, downward.

Countries with higher standards are being pushed to lower them.

https://www.ciel.org/issues/toxics

https://www.ciel.org/issues/trade

https://www.ciel.org/reports


I'm also questioning the safety standard. UL 499 originated in 1931 so it's got a huge legacy.

And it probably wouldn't have provided for or taken into account that one day products and equipment would be readily available for anyone to purchase from anywhere else. Nowadays with global shopping and shipping this should perhaps be a consideration with all electrical products to avoid these types of hazards.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #248 on: December 20, 2018, 12:15:53 am »
NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.
An optional additional explanation is:
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 01:27:54 pm by Simon »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #249 on: December 20, 2018, 12:22:15 am »
Note- this is a general principle, not specifically about any one product, but important to know- For pregnant ladies and their unborn children a great many pro-oxidant substances may pose substantial additive risks due to Fyn and c-Cbl at levels commonly found in everyday environments.

N-acetyl-cysteine may prevent it. Everybody should take NAC because our glutathione is getting used up quicker in many environments now than it was in the past, with potentially life changing consequences.

Read the linked paper. It's about a basic principle that should be widely known but isn't.

People can verify what I am saying at sites like nutrition.org (American Journal of Clinical Nutrition)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 01:30:42 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 


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