Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 58513 times)

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Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #300 on: December 20, 2018, 10:53:16 pm »
So you had better luck with cheapo stuff?

I have a Quick 957DW that has been serving me since 2014, and a Owon VDS3102L since 2014, though I don't use it that often. It's used as a portable USB scope for field works.
I also have an Analog Discovery since the same time, and it's been used occasionally on MCU projects. It's still working fine.
Also on my list is a Uni-T insulation meter. It blew up a Fluke and survived (purely my fault). I use it for testing PSUs I made.

And none of them run chips below their rated minimum operating voltage, and we can't take that as granted.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #301 on: December 20, 2018, 10:57:14 pm »
70W won't even toast your bagel.

Assuming the worst case, and the transformer gets the full 2000W, how long do you think the 30AWG wire will last?
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #302 on: December 21, 2018, 12:27:57 am »
70W won't even toast your bagel.

Assuming the worst case, and the transformer gets the full 2000W, how long do you think the 30AWG wire will last?
You can blow up stuff with 1W of power with the right conditions.

So melting a PSU is safe and approved?

Should I post it again?


I like the safety stand.

It could be plugged into an IEC plug, so 16A and 240V could go into the box. This is not a USB charger or a clapping monkey. This is a instrument to be used in a professional environment. When they decided that it will get grey color, and not red, they made this statement.
It is for professional environment, where people go to make money. Downtime, fire drill, debugging why your instrument doesnt work > this all cost money. So I damn well expect them to do everything in their power to avoid  AC/DC smoke effects. Especially if they splattered safety a dozen times on their product page.

And they better not just make their station "compliant with standard" but use all reasonable methods to make sure the thing doesnt blow up in my face, or I dont electrocute myself with it.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #303 on: December 21, 2018, 12:42:53 am »
You can blow up stuff with 1W of power with the right conditions.

That would be a feat. Please explain.

Actually, you can choke on your muffin for 0W.

It could be plugged into an IEC plug, so 16A and 240V could go into the box

You have 3800W available in a standard outlet shape? That's a bit worrisome. At least the iron would suffer a quicker, more humane death.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #304 on: December 21, 2018, 12:56:53 am »

So melting a PSU is safe and approved? mmmm thanks I did not know.


Thats not what I said.  It performed just as the UL test said, it didn't burn down his house.


Anyway that smoke out from the Weller could have triggerd a smoke detector... you know what can happen next.
I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #305 on: December 21, 2018, 12:58:15 am »
70W won't even toast your bagel.

Assuming the worst case, and the transformer gets the full 2000W, how long do you think the 30AWG wire will last?
Well, that's what Weller says, that this is a 70W station. Here they say 85W, so it seems like the soldering iron is 70W, and the consumption is 85W: https://weller-tools.com/we1010na/

The thing is that the transformer won't die immediately. As you can see in the video, it will start burning itself from excess power dissipation, and while it burns it will short it's windings, until someone notices and pulls the plug, or it trips a breaker.

The breaker has like 20 times the current rating of the fuse that the soldering station should have. Do we really need to discuss what is safer and why?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 01:00:45 am by fsr »
 
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #306 on: December 21, 2018, 01:46:14 am »
Anyway that smoke out from the Weller could have triggerd a smoke detector... you know what can happen next.
I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)

More than that, in a commercial environment it could cost you thousands of dollars for a fire brigade attendance, the adjoining businesses would also be required to evacuate the building losing time and money as well and no doubt giving you a bad reputation with the neighbours, and for what?, the lack a ten cent fuse.   :o ::)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1160-weller-responds/msg2048764/#msg2048764
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/pull-in-case-of-fire!/msg707589/#msg707589
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #307 on: December 21, 2018, 01:47:07 am »
that this is a 70W station. Here they say 85W,
Oh well that changes everything!


As you can see in the video, it will start burning itself
The video I watched showed some crusty wires.

it will short it's windings, until someone notices and pulls the plug, or it trips a breaker.
Or it goes pop. Have you ever pumped a bunch of current into a thin copper wire? I don't think you have.


. Do we really need to discuss what is safer and why?
I don't know. Aren't you discussing it right now?

Personally I think the station would have been more dangerous if it was working.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #308 on: December 21, 2018, 01:51:38 am »
and for what?, the lack a ten cent fuse.   :o ::)

For some ding dong who doesn't know what he is doing. The fuse didn't cause it.
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #309 on: December 21, 2018, 08:14:54 am »
before Dave's shocking discovery, I trusted the Weller name.  8)
having seen it, in electronics magazines for yrs. as a sign of safety , reliability & quality used by the professionals.
sad to see this is no longer true!  :'(
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline AmmoJammo

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #310 on: December 21, 2018, 08:27:59 am »
I was trying to think of another transformer based device that was sold without a mains fuse....
 

Online Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #311 on: December 21, 2018, 09:24:05 am »
before Dave's shocking discovery, I trusted the Weller name.  8)
having seen it, in electronics magazines for yrs. as a sign of safety , reliability & quality used by the professionals.
sad to see this is no longer true!  :'(


Don't throw in the towel yet just because of lack of correct value and type of fusing you can fit yourself,
I'm still buying re "reliability & quality used by the professionals"
i.e. their solder stations and tips have been great.

But the 'safety' thing is now up to the end user, and has been for a while on a lot of gear,
I fitted primary and secondary fuses on a Weller WTCPN station ages ago, because it wasn't obvious to me what will happen if there's a short or fault somewhere.

I assumed an internal transformer fuse of sorts, but that's a one way ride and a dead transformer if the issue has an external cause.
 
So between the fuses and or RCD popping, it's a good punt that magic smoke, flames and fumes are less likely  :phew:

Weller should do better damage control, now that they are sprung,
Hakko and others have their coffers wide open ready to rock  :popcorn:

What kind of protections do the competition and KnockoffsRus Inc. have in their gear?  :-// 

 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #312 on: December 21, 2018, 10:02:54 am »
Would a fuse have saved it?

Yes.

Remember that fuses for the wrong voltage tend to be twice the rated current of what they should be.

Voltage doesn't enter into it. The fuse would be matched to the wire in the transformer.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:12:02 am by Fungus »
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #313 on: December 21, 2018, 10:35:17 am »
Luckily, Daniel and other kind people from KS are extremely helpful, but that's only in US. I've heard news from India and Saudi Arabia that the service there are not nearly as good as it is in the US. So it's a YMMV thing.

In Germany Keysight support is very good as well. Once I discovered a triggering bug for my DSO-X 3012A and they could reproduce the problem and fixed it with a firmware update (but needed a few months for the regular next firmware). But maybe this was the headquarter support, can't remember.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
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Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #314 on: December 21, 2018, 10:36:54 am »
Also, at 220v instead of 120v, even ignoring core saturation, it will draw twice the current, at least for a while. The fuse should die rather quickly with twice the current draw, while a circuit breaker won't trip at all, until the unit draws more than the breaker's rated current fow a while. That means a lot more time overheating, release smoke, and a lot more chances for it to set into fire.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #315 on: December 21, 2018, 11:21:50 am »
keep in mind chinese stuff has other problems, like those hot air stations that the handle actually catches on fire. bad plastics/thermal design
 

Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #316 on: December 21, 2018, 11:39:49 am »
keep in mind chinese stuff has other problems, like those hot air stations that the handle actually catches on fire. bad plastics/thermal design

Lost all ground connection(s) as the wire was too thin and acted as a fuse, or worse - grounding was never implemented in the first place.

The list of bad examples keeps getting longer and longer.  :--
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #317 on: December 21, 2018, 12:57:38 pm »
Anyway that smoke out from the Weller could have triggerd a smoke detector... you know what can happen next.
I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)

More than that, in a commercial environment it could cost you thousands of dollars for a fire brigade attendance, the adjoining businesses would also be required to evacuate the building losing time and money as well and no doubt giving you a bad reputation with the neighbours, and for what?, the lack a ten cent fuse.   :o ::)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1160-weller-responds/msg2048764/#msg2048764
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/pull-in-case-of-fire!/msg707589/#msg707589

So its somehow Weller's fault if someone overreacts?

Years ago I got pages to replace a terminal in a dispatch center the next town over.  When I arrived the monitor wasn't there and when I asked where it was the dispatcher said he tossed it out the back door as it was putting out smoke.  So I put the replacement in place and picked up the old one from out back, tossed it in the truck and went home and back to bed.

He didn't over-react, just tossed it so he didn't have to smell the smoke.  Imagine if everyone over-reacted and called the fire department every time an iphone battery went up in smoke.

The dispatcher did say he was tempted to tone out the fire department which shared the building since it would have been humorous to call the fire department for a fire in the fire department :)
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #318 on: December 21, 2018, 01:17:22 pm »
Anyway that smoke out from the Weller could have triggerd a smoke detector... you know what can happen next.
I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)

More than that, in a commercial environment it could cost you thousands of dollars for a fire brigade attendance, the adjoining businesses would also be required to evacuate the building losing time and money as well and no doubt giving you a bad reputation with the neighbours, and for what?, the lack a ten cent fuse.   :o ::)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1160-weller-responds/msg2048764/#msg2048764
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/pull-in-case-of-fire!/msg707589/#msg707589

So its somehow Weller's fault if someone overreacts?

Years ago I got pages to replace a terminal in a dispatch center the next town over.  When I arrived the monitor wasn't there and when I asked where it was the dispatcher said he tossed it out the back door as it was putting out smoke.  So I put the replacement in place and picked up the old one from out back, tossed it in the truck and went home and back to bed.

He didn't over-react, just tossed it so he didn't have to smell the smoke.  Imagine if everyone over-reacted and called the fire department every time an iphone battery went up in smoke.

The dispatcher did say he was tempted to tone out the fire department which shared the building since it would have been humorous to call the fire department for a fire in the fire department :)

i imagine if people were not bravado and actually recognized the hazard it might be fixed better because of all the bad PR from fire departments  ::)
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #319 on: December 21, 2018, 01:45:57 pm »
Would a fuse have saved it?

Yes.

Can you please show your data proving this?  ;)
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #320 on: December 21, 2018, 01:58:40 pm »
Can you please show your data proving this?  ;)

You're asking for data showing that fuses work?  :scared:

 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #321 on: December 21, 2018, 02:07:33 pm »
You're asking for data showing that fuses work?  :scared:

Yes...  Data that shows that in this case, with the fuse that would be fitted by Weller, that is large enough that it would not cause nuisance fuse opens under normal operation in the long term at the usual 110-130 volts you see in North America, would always protect the transformer and not allow any smoke to escape when powered from 220-250 volts 50 Hz.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 02:11:18 pm by drussell »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #322 on: December 21, 2018, 02:09:53 pm »
they do it for the high end customer
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #323 on: December 21, 2018, 02:12:49 pm »
they do it for the high end customer

Irrelevant.  We are talking about this specific model.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #324 on: December 21, 2018, 02:14:09 pm »
you don't know how cost reduction works in a corporate setting do you?

typically they have a A team, but its like the A-team from breaking bad.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 02:15:46 pm by coppercone2 »
 


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