Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 55677 times)

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Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #325 on: December 21, 2018, 02:17:11 pm »
you don't know how cost reduction works in a corporate setting do you?

I don't understand your point.  Various different models of various products often have different feature sets, even within closely related families.  This is unrelated to whether any one particular model has an input fuse or not.  Decisions like these are not always purely economic, either.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #326 on: December 21, 2018, 02:18:13 pm »
yea right
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #327 on: December 21, 2018, 02:27:19 pm »
... the fuse that would be fitted by Weller, that is large enough that it would not cause nuisance fuse opens under normal operation in the long term at the usual 110-130 volts you see in North America

Why on earth would it do that if it's rated the same as the wire in the transformer?

You seem to be fixated on voltage when the problem (and solution) is expressed in amps.

(magnetic field strengths are proportional to amps, not volts)

 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #328 on: December 21, 2018, 02:34:15 pm »
FWIW, I looked at my Weller WSD81, with the intent of adding a line fuse to it, and found that it already had one.  Has one of the IEC power inlets with the little slide-out drawer for fuse access.

I guess that fuse only gets omitted on the "cheaper" models?
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #329 on: December 21, 2018, 02:37:35 pm »
So you had better luck with cheapo stuff?

I have a Quick 957DW that has been serving me since 2014, and a Owon VDS3102L since 2014, though I don't use it that often. It's used as a portable USB scope for field works.
I also have an Analog Discovery since the same time, and it's been used occasionally on MCU projects. It's still working fine.
Also on my list is a Uni-T insulation meter. It blew up a Fluke and survived (purely my fault). I use it for testing PSUs I made.

And none of them run chips below their rated minimum operating voltage, and we can't take that as granted.

There's a distinction between electronic equipment and electro-mechanical equipment which soldering stations fall into. You have consumable tips and tip changes involved in stations you don't have in say a frequency counter. So you can probably get a decent Chinese bench meter as there isn't the constant wear and tear like my Edsyn solder sucker gets. No vacuum pumps, seals and such that rely on higher quality materials. Weller soldering tips hold up extremely well and the station itself has been excellent. I'd like to see Chinese tips that hold up as well, they may be out there but I'm not testing that stuff. All I know is when years were lean and I was using Chinese tips they weren't close to Weller's. They were bulky too boot and got hot in your hand, an XMPS Weller handle is a delight to use, as are their tweezers.

I'm not sure what the "below their rated" voltage remark is about, are you saying Weller does that?
 

Online zucca

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #330 on: December 21, 2018, 02:39:32 pm »
Thats not what I said.  It performed just as the UL test said, it didn't burn down his house.

I don't argue that UL was performed well and a lot of products are UL conform.
I am just saying, a fuse is much better than an UL melting approved and specified procedure.

I know exactly what happens next, someone gets annoyed by the beeping and has to disable the smoke detector :)

well when I was living there in US, in the one of my friend house this:



showed up in front of his home. My friend had to sayto them "sorry,  it was just a toaster". They were not happy and replied:" Next time you pay".
Since I love to cook, I often triggered the smoke alarm with wine or alcohol vaporated in a pan. I was surprised why no firetruck were showing up in my case.
Then I discover there was a faulty in the fire alarm sistem and my home was not radio connected with the firefighter station.

I assumed then all US fire alarm system should trigger a fire fighter truck close to the home.
Otherwise a smoke detector is there just for a beep-beep?



I am not an expert but is seems not enough for me. In my home I want the fire fighter running at full speed to my address in case of fire.
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Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #331 on: December 21, 2018, 02:40:06 pm »
FWIW, I looked at my Weller WSD81, with the intent of adding a line fuse to it, and found that it already had one.  Has one of the IEC power inlets with the little slide-out drawer for fuse access.

I guess that fuse only gets omitted on the "cheaper" models?

It looks that way, I have the same fuse. So how much was that station?
 

Offline N2IXK

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #332 on: December 21, 2018, 03:02:12 pm »
It looks that way, I have the same fuse. So how much was that station?

It appears to be discontinued now, but I got mine at a surplus auction so no idea about original retail price...
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Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #333 on: December 21, 2018, 03:11:41 pm »
Just a normal Chinese day where, they make formula that kills babies, chargers and power supplys that catch your house on fire, memory devices which do not come near the advertised size. And so on and so on.
Saw a programme from the UK, that may containers from China were seized at port because of the laptop chargers not meeting safety standards. One of the reasons was fire.

As far as the fuse blowing out of nuisance, I guess you have never heard of time delay fuses or resettable PTC's.

Nothing to get on about...

I forgot, multimeters with ridiculous CAT ratings, which will short out with HV and possibly explode/kill you and any nearby observers.
And as Big Clive has demonstrated, heated shower heads with live mains on the elements.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 03:22:02 pm by Quarlo Klobrigney »
Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #334 on: December 21, 2018, 03:37:53 pm »
As far as the fuse blowing out of nuisance, I guess you have never heard of time delay fuses or resettable PTC's.

Not needed. Weller makes 110V soldering irons with fuses and nobody seems to be reporting that they're constantly blowing.

 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #335 on: December 21, 2018, 04:21:16 pm »
You're asking for data showing that fuses work?  :scared:

Yes...  Data that shows that in this case, with the fuse that would be fitted by Weller, that is large enough that it would not cause nuisance fuse opens under normal operation in the long term at the usual 110-130 volts you see in North America, would always protect the transformer and not allow any smoke to escape when powered from 220-250 volts 50 Hz.
No need to prove that. You have a lot less chances of something going really wrong with the fuse in place.
Fuses don't blow in normal operation with correctmy designed equipment. Does that happen a lot to you?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 04:23:10 pm by fsr »
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #336 on: December 21, 2018, 04:22:28 pm »
As far as the fuse blowing out of nuisance, I guess you have never heard of time delay fuses or resettable PTC's.

Not needed. Weller makes 110V soldering irons with fuses and nobody seems to be reporting that they're constantly blowing.


even if a resettable primary side fuse had failed to save the transformer from damage.
it would still have saved the lab from fire. had it been a careless operator that panicked!  :scared: did not disconnect the unit from the power source & just bolted out of the room, a failsafe, is a sign of a quality product IMO.
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline Robaroni

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #337 on: December 21, 2018, 04:34:30 pm »
As far as the fuse blowing out of nuisance, I guess you have never heard of time delay fuses or resettable PTC's.

Not needed. Weller makes 110V soldering irons with fuses and nobody seems to be reporting that they're constantly blowing.

Mines not, which ones, how many and whose?
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #338 on: December 21, 2018, 04:51:22 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?
 
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Online eugenenine

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #339 on: December 21, 2018, 05:50:40 pm »
I don't argue that UL was performed well and a lot of products are UL conform.
I am just saying, a fuse is much better than an UL melting approved and specified procedure.

Sure its better, but its not required.  Many people say that self driving cars are better than non self driving, many people say that traction control, or automatic braking is better.  but there are many people who will buy cars without those features, usually due to cost.  But you can't say those cars are defective because they don't have a feature more expensive cars have.

A side effect of super cheap (usually china) clones is that people will see that the Weler (clone) is half the price of the (real) Weller so the real Weller looses sales and has to come up with a price reduced model to get some sales back or get run out of business.  So they cut costs wherever they can.  And as someone pointed out a fuse is just a thin wire and so is a transformer so if it passes UL (therefore legally safe) then thats what they have to do.


well when I was living there in US, in the one of my friend house this:

showed up in front of his home. My friend had to sayto them "sorry,  it was just a toaster". They were not happy and replied:" Next time you pay".
Since I love to cook, I often triggered the smoke alarm with wine or alcohol vaporated in a pan. I was surprised why no firetruck were showing up in my case.
Then I discover there was a faulty in the fire alarm sistem and my home was not radio connected with the firefighter station.

I assumed then all US fire alarm system should trigger a fire fighter truck close to the home.
Otherwise a smoke detector is there just for a beep-beep?


Nope, in the US its $ driven.   People want the biggest house for the cheapest amount of money so the home builder puts in the cheapest smoke detectors they can as long as they still meet the legal requirements.  If you want them monitored then you find a monitoring company (ADT for example) and pay them for a monitoring subscription.

Really no different than the Weller scenario here, lowest cost model gets the fewest features, want more (safety) features then pay more.

I am not an expert but is seems not enough for me. In my home I want the fire fighter running at full speed to my address in case of fire.

You would also want a way to cancel false alarms. 

But why would you want to wait for the fire department, why don't you have am automatic fire suppression system in your house?
 

Online eugenenine

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #340 on: December 21, 2018, 05:52:09 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?

Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #341 on: December 21, 2018, 05:54:03 pm »
My Goodman AC system has no fuse between 240V and its control xfmr. It costed me $5000 to install, and it came with a defective defrost controller board, and the new board has been ordered for a week and I still haven't seen it. As a result, I'm burning electricity on heating strips to keep myself from freezing.

Proudly made in USA.

Goodman is pretty much bottom of the barrel. It's one of those infamous brands that a lot of HVAC guys sneer at, although not surprisingly it's also one of the best selling brands out there because it's one of the cheapest. I made the mistake of installing a Goodman gas furnace years ago and it has been a hassle to keep it going.
 

Online eugenenine

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #342 on: December 21, 2018, 05:55:05 pm »

even if a resettable primary side fuse had failed to save the transformer from damage.
it would still have saved the lab from fire. had it been a careless operator that panicked!  :scared: did not disconnect the unit from the power source & just bolted out of the room, a failsafe, is a sign of a quality product IMO.

or maybe, since the iron passed a UL safety test without a fuse, it wouldn't have burned down the lab even if it had been left plugged in.

 

Offline glarsson

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #343 on: December 21, 2018, 06:02:55 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?

Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?
Because they are not required by law and it is cheaper to not include them.
 

Online eugenenine

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #344 on: December 21, 2018, 06:39:16 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?

Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?
Because they are not required by law and it is cheaper to not include them.

Same reason why a soldering station doesn't include it.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #345 on: December 21, 2018, 07:03:17 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?

Any electrical safety standard will call for a mains primary-side protective element, in smaller gear.
Very few products (appear) to use nothing. From what I see...

The (North American) Weller is approved ONLY to meet the product-specific "soldering iron" safety standard UL 499 which has a few miscellaneous safety clauses. It does not fully cover basic electrical safety.

The (European) Weller approvals cover basic electrical safety IEC 60335-1 AND the product-specific part 2 IEC 60335-2-45 for the soldering iron aspect, AND calls a power transformer safety standard IEC 61558. So that product is probably safe - I haven't seen secondary-side fusing in pics, and assuming a legit agency did the assessment, not CE crap.

I'm not totally defending Weller, their electrical engineering dropped the ball but some blame is on a vintage safety standard that should be deprecated. 87 YEARS OLD is a safety standard long past its re-vamp. It allowed the engineering error to make it out to market. Or engineering designed it only to pass approvals.

Every Pace station has a primary fuse, but no mention of what UL/CSA standard they certify to, as a comparison.
Metcal/OK PS-900 no mention of its approvals and I did not see a teardown.
Edsyn has a fuse and no formal electrical approvals "COMPLIES WITH MIL-S-45743E, MIL-STD-2000-1B, WS6536E AND ESD SPEC, DOD-STD-1686, DOD-HDBK-263"
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 07:07:00 pm by floobydust »
 
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Offline glarsson

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #346 on: December 21, 2018, 07:27:08 pm »
For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?

Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?
Because they are not required by law and it is cheaper to not include them.

Same reason why a soldering station doesn't include it.
... and it shows how Weller values its customers.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #347 on: December 21, 2018, 07:31:40 pm »
Voltage doesn't enter into it. The fuse would be matched to the wire in the transformer.

Lets's say you put a 0.75A fuse in there.  How does the fuse know the difference between 90 watts (at 120 volts) being drawn, most of which is going into the actual iron element while it is heating, versus 180 watts (at 240 volts, which is still 0.75A) being dissipated solely by the primary winding of the transformer in a fault or mishap condition? 

That poor little primary winding isn't going to last very long dissipating even 180 watts.

Again, I'm not arguing that a fuse isn't a good idea and I would put a fuse in there if I designed it, but the people ranting about it automatically being a fire-breathing, smoke-emitting death trap just because it doesn't have a primary fuse and seem to think that adding a fuse would somehow solve all faults and potential failure modes that might emit some smoke or something are being at least a bit hyperbolic.

Fuses are not always required in the regulations because it has been deemed to not be necessary in all cases.  If there were any significant number of fires caused by things like this, it would be in the regulations.  The insurance industry (which is what started UL, of course) would see to it that it became a regulatory requirement if it was costing them any significant amount of money.

I'm not sure about 00 where you live, but in North America, it has been shown that things like bedroom fires caused by faulty line cords causing arcing or small smouldering below the limits that would trip the mains breaker was a larger problem than things like small transformers bursting into flames.  We are therefore now required to install Arc-Fault breakers on all bedroom circuits which are supposed to help protect against fire by trying to detect these kinds of conditions.

The UK has another approach which helps protect line cords and the connected devices by mandating fuses in every plug to help limit potential damage from their crazy 7700-watt-to-the-wall, double-connected, low impedance ring mains setup.  The same has not been deemed necessary in North America, apparently because there are not widespread problems with small transformer operated devices like this bursting into flames and burning your house down.  :)
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #348 on: December 21, 2018, 08:03:33 pm »
Voltage doesn't enter into it. The fuse would be matched to the wire in the transformer.

Lets's say you put a 0.75A fuse in there.  How does the fuse know the difference between 90 watts (at 120 volts) being drawn, most of which is going into the actual iron element while it is heating, versus 180 watts (at 240 volts, which is still 0.75A) being dissipated solely by the primary winding of the transformer in a fault or mishap condition?
What makes you think that the soldering station will draw twice the power with twice the voltage? It seems to me that it's a lot more likely to just apply full voltage to the heating element until it reaches the set temperature, so, ignoring core saturation, it's double the voltage over a resistive heating element. That's 2 times the current and 4 times the power. The fuse will likely blow quickly under twice the maximum current draw.

For everyone defending Weller: Why has the more expensive Weller stations a fuse on the primary side if it isn't needed?

Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?
Because they are not required by law and it is cheaper to not include them.

Same reason why a soldering station doesn't include it.
... and it shows how Weller values its customers.
Also, a fuse is very cheap for the safety it provides. Hardly an excuse to not include one. Very different from car security systems that are expensive. And even considering that, some car security systems are mandatory by law here since a few years ago, like driver and passenger airbarg, and ABS brakes.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 08:10:07 pm by fsr »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #349 on: December 21, 2018, 08:31:12 pm »
What makes you think that the soldering station will draw twice the power with twice the voltage?

That was just an example, specifically to Fungus in response to his assertion that the voltage never ever matters in terms of fusing a transformer.

Of course a simple load will attempt to draw 4x the power at double the voltage but the real world is seldom quite that simple.  Even most small heating elements won't draw 4x the power since the resistance will usually rapidly rise as the temperature increases, and in the case of a controlled soldering station the unit may not even send any power to the iron upon power-up, depending on the state of the user controls or whether whatever control circuitry might exist is even receiving power if you blast it with twice the voltage.  It could blow regulators, microcontrollers, other components or whatnot meaning no power is ever even sent to the iron.

Since nobody has actually tested anything yet on this particular unit and provided any data, everything thus far is just pure speculation.  :popcorn:
 


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