Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 57624 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fsr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: ar
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #375 on: December 22, 2018, 12:38:26 pm »
Well, the fuse isn't there, so they decided to not use one in the desing phase. You can put a fuse on the pcb, or even hanging from the transformer's post, or you can order a transformer with a built-in fuse or the power connector at the back of the soldering station could have a fuse holder. But they decided to not put one there, to what? Save some pocket change per unit? How did that played out now with the electronics community talking about the missing fuse?
 

Offline MrMobodies

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 636
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #376 on: December 22, 2018, 12:53:10 pm »
Well, the fuse isn't there, so they decided to not use one in the desing phase. You can put a fuse on the pcb, or even hanging from the transformer's post, or you can order a transformer with a built-in fuse or the power connector at the back of the soldering station could have a fuse holder. But they decided to not put one there, to what? Save some pocket change per unit? How did that played out now with the electronics community talking about the missing fuse?

They'll have to do that but for a well known a big brand name product.
Alter it for safety.

The cost savings of pocket change by not putting in a fuse can be paid back in the form of fines from visits from your local Fire and Rescue when they turn up all at your expense. I see at the end of the video they made double digits.
 

Offline fsr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: ar
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #377 on: December 22, 2018, 04:48:43 pm »
Well, the fuse isn't there, so they decided to not use one in the desing phase. You can put a fuse on the pcb, or even hanging from the transformer's post, or you can order a transformer with a built-in fuse or the power connector at the back of the soldering station could have a fuse holder. But they decided to not put one there, to what? Save some pocket change per unit? How did that played out now with the electronics community talking about the missing fuse?

They'll have to do that but for a well known a big brand name product.
Alter it for safety.

The cost savings of pocket change by not putting in a fuse can be paid back in the form of fines from visits from your local Fire and Rescue when they turn up all at your expense. I see at the end of the video they made double digits.
Of course, i meant that weller should have done that at the design phase.
Just to think about for all the stuff that is permanently connected to power sockets... Imagine if everyone wanted to be on the cheap and removed the fuse!
And what if this thing decides to fail when no one is watching? Someone cold even forget to turn it off before leaving!
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10180
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #378 on: December 22, 2018, 04:55:29 pm »
Why do more expensive cars have more safety features than cheaper ones?
Because they are not required by law and it is cheaper to not include them.

MUCH, cheaper.

(unlike a $0.10 fuse on a $100 piece of equipment).
 

Offline Kleinstein

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6405
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #379 on: December 22, 2018, 07:11:57 pm »
For the soldering station they may assume that it is used under supervision only, as it would be a fire danger anyway of used unattended. So legally they may get away with not have a fuse.

Still it would be common sense to use a safe transformer with a thermal cut out. These are commonly used even in price sensitive products - though these may be used unattended.  The most logical way to add protection would be ordering transformers that include the thermal fuse. It is a few cents more, but worth it. They could safe those few cents by leaving out the poly-fuse on the secondary.

An IEC connector with fuse may need a modified case.
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1152
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #380 on: December 22, 2018, 10:02:16 pm »
Greed and stupidity belong to the largest renewable resources available to mankind.
In this case here to risk that your premium brand is caught pants down for a cost advantage of some ten €cents.

The attempts of the vice president of marketing to waffle himself out of this discussion makes them look even more incompetent.
Weller a premium brand with premium prices ?! No mains fuse and no overtemp protection ?! Think twice.  :palm:


 

Offline Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1499
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #381 on: December 22, 2018, 10:57:26 pm »
The interesting question is why Weller deliberately chose to do this on at least two models.
They have the IEC fuse holder BOM item in other products, so it seems like a no-brainer to re-use it and do the basics of covering your corporate arse.

Just going to put it out there as nobody else has: MTBF.
eBay shop with all the gear you need!
FS: Agilent 54825A, R&S CMU200, CRTU, Marconi 6201B, Lecroy WP 950, 9354TM, 9354M, 9374L LC584A, Tek THS720P, TDS7154B, Anritsu MG3671A 2.75G I/Q RF gen, Keithley 238 SMU 707 matrix, HP 8642B, 8903A, 8110A, 8156
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #382 on: December 23, 2018, 03:37:09 am »
A very useful and cheap addition to a soldering setup would be a countdown timer as are used on bathroom fans. They are mandatory in hot tubs and usually go up to a maximum of 60 or 90 minutes. Its totally worth the inconvenience of turning a knob to reset the timer every hour or so if there is even the smallest chance you might suddenly have to go and do something and might forget that your iron is on.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, Richard Crowley

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #383 on: December 23, 2018, 03:40:41 am »
I really enjoyed the hilarious Microchip videos they made in response to Dave's review of the PICkit3 (#39 ) and its sequel. Maybe Weller could ...
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
The following users thanked this post: Richard Crowley, TheDane, MrMobodies

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10012
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #384 on: December 23, 2018, 04:35:18 am »
Leaving out the primary side fuse could just represent a decision that fuses blown from otherwise harmless power surges are a problem.  A transformer which included a primary side fusible link would have been a particularly poor choice.  But it does not explain not using a slow primary side fuse and series instead of shunt protection on the secondary.
 

Offline Electro Detective

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2196
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #385 on: December 23, 2018, 09:05:07 am »
A very useful and cheap addition to a soldering setup would be a countdown timer as are used on bathroom fans.

They are mandatory in hot tubs and usually go up to a maximum of 60 or 90 minutes.

Its totally worth the inconvenience of turning a knob to reset the timer every hour or so if there is even the smallest chance you might suddenly have to go and do something and might forget that your iron is on.


 :-+

I have my rig on a 10 amp 0.1s > 2 hour timer digital thingie, with a Bypass switch if I know I won't be moving from the work or test scene for any reason

If I do, I press the timer switch and walk away...

« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 10:08:07 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline Gary350z

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 191
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #386 on: December 23, 2018, 10:52:38 am »
I have my rig on a 10 amp 0.1s > 2 hour timer digital thingie, with a Bypass switch if I know I won't be moving from the work or test scene for any reason
Just the soldering iron, or all the test equipment?
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10180
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #387 on: December 23, 2018, 12:07:51 pm »
Leaving out the primary side fuse could just represent a decision that fuses blown from otherwise harmless power surges are a problem.

Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.
 
The following users thanked this post: kg4arn

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8154
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #388 on: December 23, 2018, 12:13:48 pm »
Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.
The same may apply to this entire discussion.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10180
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #389 on: December 23, 2018, 12:26:50 pm »
Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.
The same may apply to this entire discussion.

Maybe. This thread (and the video) was about the corporate-speak reply from Weller.

Then again, let's remember that Weller puts fuses in their more expensive gear. I don't see anybody asking to have them removed so they can save $0.50 on the purchase price.
.
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4826
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #390 on: December 23, 2018, 12:48:16 pm »
Just going to put it out there as nobody else has: MTBF.

Another term which product marketing gets wrong all the time. :( In case you don't know: MTBF = MTTF + MTTR

MTBF: Mean Time Between Failure
MTTF: Mean Time To Failure
MTTR: Mean Time To Repair

A large MTBF doesn't imply a large MTTF, it could also mean an extremely high MTTR. ;)
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1152
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #391 on: December 23, 2018, 02:07:56 pm »
Leaving out the primary side fuse could just represent a decision that fuses blown from otherwise harmless power surges are a problem.

Or it could be that they aren't a problem and it's all in your head.

The only question is how so many other brands got around this problem so elegantly despite having a fuse in it.  >:D
 

Offline MrMobodies

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 636
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #392 on: December 23, 2018, 03:37:35 pm »
I really enjoyed the hilarious Microchip videos they made in response to Dave's review of the PICkit3 (#39 ) and its sequel. Maybe Weller could ...

EEVblog #39 - Microchip PICkit 3 Programmer/Debugger Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjfIS65mwn8#t=8m27s

Quote
"I don't think we'll ever get it back, why? Some dickhead manager at Microchip who actually, you know, who managed the projected on this thing and made those decisions would never admit they're wrong and never admit that MpLab sucks if you just want to program a chip, so really we will never see it, that dickhead is probably going to get promoted too."

They removed the fuses to save money and promoted themselves to double digit growth.

Here's a version for Weller:

"I don't think we'll ever get the fuse back, why? Some dickhead manager at Weller who actually, you know, who managed the projected on this thing and made those decisions would never admit they're wrong and never admit that removing the primary fuse sucks if you don't want some random unprotected mains fireball in your lab, there is only one place it belongs is the trash, that dickhead is probably going to get promoted too."

With Weller it'll be:

Mean Time Before Fire.
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2997
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #393 on: December 23, 2018, 05:17:52 pm »
What do people think Weller's corporate response should have been?  It does need an update...  :-DD

Last time I went through something similar to this, it was an all day meeting with the CEO, exec's and a team of lawyers advising what to do. The discussion was strictly about weighing liability and costs. Quite sad actually.

The product line I was involved in could do a lot more damage than a soldering station transformer burning up.

Even if engineering could find a fix, it would take many weeks to change the product, go through approvals again, roll that out to market. Backtracking model numbers and how many are already out there that are affected, the numbers could be very high.

Then, the decision was made to immediately issue a recall notice- as a corporation having knowledge of a product's unsafe aspect and not doing anything about it leaves them wide open to litigation. That got the exec's off their arse.
 

Offline Electro Detective

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2196
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #394 on: December 23, 2018, 09:40:15 pm »
You're asking for data showing that fuses work? :scared:

Yes...  Data that shows that in this case, with the fuse that would be fitted by Weller, that is large enough that it would not cause nuisance fuse opens under normal operation in the long term at the usual 110-130 volts you see in North America, would always protect the transformer and not allow any smoke to escape when powered from 220-250 volts 50 Hz.

I accept the challenge  :P

to calculate and test a working fuse type and value under those conditions,
if Weller supplies me with a FREE unit (or three) to keep,

and forks out some serious cash for my R+D work,

 to save them time, money, reputation and face

Primary and Secondary fusing btw, with simple user swapout and generic fuse replacement,


...no half baked solutions from me   :popcorn:


Edit: the 'Data' will be posted here at EEVblog  :-+  exclusively

...once the deal is done and I've been paid  >:D

 ;D



« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 09:46:04 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1152
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #395 on: December 23, 2018, 09:49:17 pm »
Just going to put it out there as nobody else has: MTBF.

Another term which product marketing gets wrong all the time. :( In case you don't know: MTBF = MTTF + MTTR

MTBF: Mean Time Between Failure
MTTF: Mean Time To Failure
MTTR: Mean Time To Repair

A large MTBF doesn't imply a large MTTF, it could also mean an extremely high MTTR. ;)

... some more important MTT something values:

MTTX: Mean time to xplode
MTTD: Mean time to dump product
MTTSF: Mean time to set something on fire
MTTSC: Mean time to switch to *competitor* product.

Guess the MTT something values for the Weller product without a fuse.  >:D


 

Offline fsr

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 168
  • Country: ar
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #396 on: December 23, 2018, 09:58:04 pm »
I think that the most clean way to go out of this mess for Weller would be to say that there was a mistake in production, that resulted in the fuse to be omitted, and that they're going to receive the faulty models for recall, and just get some people to solder the goddamn fuse directly to to the transformer's post. Of course, after testing to make sure that the fuse will not prematurely blow, as that would be a pain in the ass to replace.

Of course, that would had to be done in the response to Dave, now it's clear that they did that on purpose, for sheer greed. Still, they need to say "sorry, we made a stupid decision" and recall to solder the fuse there.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10180
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #397 on: December 23, 2018, 10:29:26 pm »
What do people think Weller's corporate response should have been?

How about: "Thanks for pointing this out, it was a management oversight and we're updating our policies. We're also going to add a fuse and a large "110V only" warning label to this model" (and all other models that don't already have them)."


This is a company that happily spends hundreds of thousands a year just on trade shows, etc.

The free publicity Dave could have given them with a positive followup video would easily pay for a few fuses and sticky labels.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 10:31:40 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline AmmoJammo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 782
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #398 on: December 23, 2018, 10:38:53 pm »
There's actually a solution that doesn't require fitting a fuse, and would actually reduce the bom cost!

Hard wire the mains leads...
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2997
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #399 on: December 23, 2018, 10:40:00 pm »
But wait- even on 110VAC ("normal operation") there is still a hazard. That's the issue still.
A sticker ain't gonna fix this debacle
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf