Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 57934 times)

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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #450 on: December 26, 2018, 12:44:28 am »
Because it doesn't smokes in normal operation, under the designed current, of course.
In any case, a fuse would have done a much better job at failing under higher currents than normal.
That doesn't mean the current wasn't limited or limited to the point of failing safely, instead of violently.
It didn't fail safely. That's a massive amount of smoke, and that means heat, and that means something is burning, and that something is the enamel, which is the only isolation of the windings inside the transformer. That amount of smoke can trigger a smoke detector, and with good reason.

 :palm: Do we have to keep spelling it out to you? YOUR SAFETY. Not the safety of your iron or smoke detector. I don't think the the transformer got much hotter than a soldering iron tip.
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #451 on: December 26, 2018, 01:32:32 am »

May we safely conclude and advise anyone with any Weller product that has not been inspected and 'upgraded' (aka fuse/s)

should not leave it powered up during:

a tea/coffee making exercise,

visit to the latrine/dunny,

or whilst answering the front door to insult drivelling door knock sales knobs   >:(
 
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Offline blueskull

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #452 on: December 26, 2018, 02:19:45 am »
Free speech at its finest moment.

Put it simple. If you can live with it, then keep using it.

It's anyway not supposed to be used without attendance.

If you prefer to let the iron sleep all day long, then it's your choice and you are supposed to have a better iron.

I turn my irons off right after use, and as the privilege of a JBC and Metcal user, I can afford doing so as thermal recovery takes literally seconds.

If you can't live with it, get another iron or get it fixed.

Simple as that. No discussions will make it illegal. It's legal. Period.

If you guys really want to make fuseless devices illegal, then don't bitch here. Lobby your local legislators.

The absolute most you can achieve here is to let Weller PR to know that you are not happy. At most it will help Weller to improve, not changing the law.
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #453 on: December 26, 2018, 02:57:54 am »
... another piece of free speech:

- no fuse, marketing waffling, dumb excuses ?
- its still legal. Weren't they lucky !

A possible response : JUST DONT BUY THIS CRAP - discussions here make no sense. in the end, its your decision.
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #454 on: December 26, 2018, 10:36:24 am »

May we safely conclude and advise anyone with any Weller product that has not been inspected and 'upgraded' (aka fuse/s)

should not leave it powered up during:

a tea/coffee making exercise,

visit to the latrine/dunny,

or whilst answering the front door to insult drivelling door knock sales knobs   >:(
That's what people have been arguing here, but mostly based on a whole lot of assumptions and not much else. Have these been banned by insurance companies yet?
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #455 on: December 26, 2018, 11:26:47 am »
Because it doesn't smokes in normal operation, under the designed current, of course.
In any case, a fuse would have done a much better job at failing under higher currents than normal.
That doesn't mean the current wasn't limited or limited to the point of failing safely, instead of violently.
It didn't fail safely. That's a massive amount of smoke, and that means heat, and that means something is burning, and that something is the enamel, which is the only isolation of the windings inside the transformer. That amount of smoke can trigger a smoke detector, and with good reason.

 :palm: Do we have to keep spelling it out to you? YOUR SAFETY. Not the safety of your iron or smoke detector. I don't think the the transformer got much hotter than a soldering iron tip.
I'm talking about personal safety and fire hazards here. That's no so hard to understand, i think.
A transformer burning it's enamel and smoking like hell isn't spelling out "security".
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #456 on: December 26, 2018, 11:49:09 am »
I'm talking about personal safety and fire hazards here. That's no so hard to understand, i think.
A transformer burning it's enamel and smoking like hell isn't spelling out "security".
That's because they're spelling out "safety". ;D What personal safety hazard are you talking about? There were no signs of significant danger or damage on the inside of the device, so there definitely weren't any on the outside. Smoke is to be expected when you grossly overload a device.

Safety standards are meant to keep you safe, not the device. It's no more complicated than that.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #457 on: December 26, 2018, 12:43:10 pm »
I'm talking about personal safety and fire hazards here. That's no so hard to understand, i think.
A transformer burning it's enamel and smoking like hell isn't spelling out "security".
That's because they're spelling out "safety". ;D What personal safety hazard are you talking about? There were no signs of significant danger or damage on the inside of the device, so there definitely weren't any on the outside. Smoke is to be expected when you grossly overload a device.

Safety standards are meant to keep you safe, not the device. It's no more complicated than that.

I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #458 on: December 26, 2018, 12:47:27 pm »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.

The problem is that there are other ways a transformer can fail, even if a 120 V unit is used at 115 V, e.g. a unexpected short from repeated hot / cold cycles or a damage to the enamel from grid transients. It is these cases that can pose a safety hazard if there is no fuse at the primary of the transformer.  If one sits next to it the smoke is bad enough, but there could also be a fire hazard form the transformer and case getting too hot.  It does not look there is a reliable way for the current to be interrupted in case of an overheating transformer. One should not let the iron run unattended, but this stall happens sometimes by mistake.

Not sure what would have happened if Dave had not turned off the unit when the smoke came out, but took the camera. It is still possible they have flame retardant plastic so they can safely a few cents on the fuse. 
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #459 on: December 26, 2018, 08:22:05 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.

Typically you need the fire to spread a bit before you get enough smoke or carbon monoxide to be fatal. If it did in fact remain contained in the unit and didn't spread to any surrounding materials it's unlikely to result in a fatality. That's still no excuse for not having a fuse.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #460 on: December 26, 2018, 09:18:31 pm »
Weller went down the drain, really.
At my previous company, we bought a WX station, in 2013, so probably of the first batches.

Every time an ESD pulse 1m appart got discharged in some completely unconnected stuff, the WX station beeped, and resetted.
After 1 Year, the iron cable failed !  With moderate use !

We got rid of this POS, and got us some good old WSD station.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #461 on: December 26, 2018, 10:13:25 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #462 on: December 26, 2018, 10:18:05 pm »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.

The problem is that there are other ways a transformer can fail, even if a 120 V unit is used at 115 V, e.g. a unexpected short from repeated hot / cold cycles or a damage to the enamel from grid transients. It is these cases that can pose a safety hazard if there is no fuse at the primary of the transformer.  If one sits next to it the smoke is bad enough,

but there could also be a fire hazard form the transformer and case getting too hot.

It does not look there is a reliable way for the current to be interrupted in case of an overheating transformer. One should not let the iron run unattended, but this stall happens sometimes by mistake.

Not sure what would have happened if Dave had not turned off the unit when the smoke came out, but took the camera. It is still possible they have flame retardant plastic so they can safely a few cents on the fuse.



What if there were some paper based schematics, electronics magazine, parts catalogue, tissue box or iso wipes nearby to fuel the barbeque?

Even though highly unlikely (...famous last words? ::)) I've seen transformers shoot serious sparks through equipment vents when they go south, there's a source of ignition too.

Insurance or not, the victim is screwed to replace items, some perhaps uninsured, irreplaceable, expensive, or vintage/sentimental, as well as get back in business asap

And let's not forget that burnt out magic smoke and burning premises/water combo SMELL that just keeps on keeping on 24/7  !  :o

All because some arrogant company bean counting twat refuses to install CHEAP basic safety measures,
post stone-age 'technology' that's been around since the 1800s to protect wiring, user, and manufacturers reputations and stock market share prices

and doesn't even bother to give past and present customers a simple heads up about it, and or an offer to rectify the issue

Everyone also needs to consider our Fire Brigade/Departments sorting real danger in the community, especially in summer months, 
instead of blowing their rest time and wasting resources mopping up manufacturer's cheapassery based snafus,
after taking their trusting customers cash  :-- :--

 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #463 on: December 26, 2018, 10:19:16 pm »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.

The problem is that there are other ways a transformer can fail, even if a 120 V unit is used at 115 V, e.g. a unexpected short from repeated hot / cold cycles or a damage to the enamel from grid transients. It is these cases that can pose a safety hazard if there is no fuse at the primary of the transformer.  If one sits next to it the smoke is bad enough, but there could also be a fire hazard form the transformer and case getting too hot.  It does not look there is a reliable way for the current to be interrupted in case of an overheating transformer. One should not let the iron run unattended, but this stall happens sometimes by mistake.

Not sure what would have happened if Dave had not turned off the unit when the smoke came out, but took the camera. It is still possible they have flame retardant plastic so they can safely a few cents on the fuse.
We're going around in circles. The ability of transformers to limit current and fuses not always being required have been discussed multiple times in this thread.
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #464 on: December 26, 2018, 10:23:56 pm »
What if there were some paper based schematics, electronics magazine, parts catalogue, tissue box or iso wipes nearby to fuel the barbeque?

Even though highly unlikely (...famous last words? ::)) I've seen transformers shoot serious sparks through equipment vents when they go south, there's a source of ignition too.

Insurance or not, the victim is screwed to replace items, some perhaps uninsured, irreplaceable, expensive, or vintage/sentimental, as well as get back in business asap

And let's not forget that burnt out magic smoke and burning premises/water combo SMELL that just keeps on keeping on 24/7  !  :o

All because some arrogant company bean counting twat refuses to install CHEAP basic safety measures,
post stone-age 'technology' that's been around since the 1800s to protect wiring, user, and manufacturers reputations and stock market share prices

and doesn't even bother to give past and present customers a simple heads up about it, and or an offer to rectify the issue

Everyone also needs to consider our Fire Brigade/Departments sorting real danger in the community, especially in summer months, 
instead of blowing their rest time and wasting resources mopping up manufacturer's cheapassery based snafus,
after taking their trusting customers cash  :-- :--
People really need to stop pretending Weller employees are basically sneaking into people's houses setting fires. This is getting ridiculous.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:28:22 pm by Mr. Scram »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #465 on: December 26, 2018, 10:31:32 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.

You're the one pretending that smoke isn't a hazard.

(at least, I hope you're only pretending not to know that)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #466 on: December 26, 2018, 10:32:29 pm »
We're going around in circles. The ability of transformers to limit current and fuses not always being required have been discussed multiple times in this thread.

And in this case it dodn't limit the current so a fuse was necessary.

End of.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #467 on: December 26, 2018, 10:46:56 pm »
You're the one pretending that smoke isn't a hazard.

(at least, I hope you're only pretending not to know that)
We both know that this amount of smoke doesn't present a hazard. Again, let's stay on subject.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:51:19 pm by Mr. Scram »
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #468 on: December 26, 2018, 10:48:17 pm »
And in this case it dodn't limit the current so a fuse was necessary.

End of.
Didn't it? Please refer to this exact discussion earlier in the thread. It's no use going over it again.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #469 on: December 26, 2018, 11:05:55 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.

Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #470 on: December 26, 2018, 11:09:15 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.

Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?

Hi,

fuses are a bit like airbags and safety belts in cars. If all drivers were perfect, nobody would need them. In reality ... )
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #471 on: December 26, 2018, 11:21:03 pm »
Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?
As I've mentioned before, I'd love to know what went into that decision. Maybe asking Weller about it would yield some information, though considering their last formal response I'm not getting my hopes up. Without that information it's hard to know whether it's a properly researched decision and therefore engineered product, or that the penny pinchers won one round too many like some here are suggesting.

Considering it's apparently specifically the German designed stations that do have fuses, it wouldn't even surprise me if the answer is essentially "Germans will be Germans".
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #472 on: December 26, 2018, 11:28:44 pm »
Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?
As I've mentioned before, I'd love to know what went into that decision. Maybe asking Weller about it would yield some information, though considering their last formal response I'm not getting my hopes up. Without that information it's hard to know whether it's a properly researched decision and therefore engineered product, or that the penny pinchers won one round too many like some here are suggesting.

Considering it's apparently specifically the German designed stations that do have fuses, it wouldn't even surprise me if the answer is essentially "Germans will be Germans".
Oh, yes, only the Germans protect their stations with a fuse: https://www.banggood.com/FX-951-Style-230V-AU-Plug-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Station-p-932704.html?rmmds=buy&cur_warehouse=CN  ::)
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #473 on: December 26, 2018, 11:44:18 pm »
Oh, yes, only the Germans protect their stations with a fuse: https://www.banggood.com/FX-951-Style-230V-AU-Plug-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Station-p-932704.html?rmmds=buy&cur_warehouse=CN  ::)
Those are your words, not mine. Please note the context of my reply. I'm not sure I appreciate the context of replies being repeatedly changed to facilitate arguing against them.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #474 on: December 27, 2018, 12:52:04 am »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.

The problem is that there are other ways a transformer can fail, even if a 120 V unit is used at 115 V, e.g. a unexpected short from repeated hot / cold cycles or a damage to the enamel from grid transients. It is these cases that can pose a safety hazard if there is no fuse at the primary of the transformer.  If one sits next to it the smoke is bad enough, but there could also be a fire hazard form the transformer and case getting too hot.  It does not look there is a reliable way for the current to be interrupted in case of an overheating transformer. One should not let the iron run unattended, but this stall happens sometimes by mistake.

Not sure what would have happened if Dave had not turned off the unit when the smoke came out, but took the camera. It is still possible they have flame retardant plastic so they can safely a few cents on the fuse.
I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet so forgive me if I'm repeating something: could it be that the 120V models have to adhere to a safety standard which doesn't assume such fatal errors? The response from Weller seems to be 'the device adheres to safety regulations' (for the market it is sold in) and that is the end of the story.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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