Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 92792 times)

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #450 on: December 26, 2018, 10:13:25 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #451 on: December 26, 2018, 10:18:05 pm »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.

The problem is that there are other ways a transformer can fail, even if a 120 V unit is used at 115 V, e.g. a unexpected short from repeated hot / cold cycles or a damage to the enamel from grid transients. It is these cases that can pose a safety hazard if there is no fuse at the primary of the transformer.  If one sits next to it the smoke is bad enough,

but there could also be a fire hazard form the transformer and case getting too hot.

It does not look there is a reliable way for the current to be interrupted in case of an overheating transformer. One should not let the iron run unattended, but this stall happens sometimes by mistake.

Not sure what would have happened if Dave had not turned off the unit when the smoke came out, but took the camera. It is still possible they have flame retardant plastic so they can safely a few cents on the fuse.



What if there were some paper based schematics, electronics magazine, parts catalogue, tissue box or iso wipes nearby to fuel the barbeque?

Even though highly unlikely (...famous last words? ::)) I've seen transformers shoot serious sparks through equipment vents when they go south, there's a source of ignition too.

Insurance or not, the victim is screwed to replace items, some perhaps uninsured, irreplaceable, expensive, or vintage/sentimental, as well as get back in business asap

And let's not forget that burnt out magic smoke and burning premises/water combo SMELL that just keeps on keeping on 24/7  !  :o

All because some arrogant company bean counting twat refuses to install CHEAP basic safety measures,
post stone-age 'technology' that's been around since the 1800s to protect wiring, user, and manufacturers reputations and stock market share prices

and doesn't even bother to give past and present customers a simple heads up about it, and or an offer to rectify the issue

Everyone also needs to consider our Fire Brigade/Departments sorting real danger in the community, especially in summer months, 
instead of blowing their rest time and wasting resources mopping up manufacturer's cheapassery based snafus,
after taking their trusting customers cash  :-- :--

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #452 on: December 26, 2018, 10:19:16 pm »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.

The problem is that there are other ways a transformer can fail, even if a 120 V unit is used at 115 V, e.g. a unexpected short from repeated hot / cold cycles or a damage to the enamel from grid transients. It is these cases that can pose a safety hazard if there is no fuse at the primary of the transformer.  If one sits next to it the smoke is bad enough, but there could also be a fire hazard form the transformer and case getting too hot.  It does not look there is a reliable way for the current to be interrupted in case of an overheating transformer. One should not let the iron run unattended, but this stall happens sometimes by mistake.

Not sure what would have happened if Dave had not turned off the unit when the smoke came out, but took the camera. It is still possible they have flame retardant plastic so they can safely a few cents on the fuse.
We're going around in circles. The ability of transformers to limit current and fuses not always being required have been discussed multiple times in this thread.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #453 on: December 26, 2018, 10:23:56 pm »
What if there were some paper based schematics, electronics magazine, parts catalogue, tissue box or iso wipes nearby to fuel the barbeque?

Even though highly unlikely (...famous last words? ::)) I've seen transformers shoot serious sparks through equipment vents when they go south, there's a source of ignition too.

Insurance or not, the victim is screwed to replace items, some perhaps uninsured, irreplaceable, expensive, or vintage/sentimental, as well as get back in business asap

And let's not forget that burnt out magic smoke and burning premises/water combo SMELL that just keeps on keeping on 24/7  !  :o

All because some arrogant company bean counting twat refuses to install CHEAP basic safety measures,
post stone-age 'technology' that's been around since the 1800s to protect wiring, user, and manufacturers reputations and stock market share prices

and doesn't even bother to give past and present customers a simple heads up about it, and or an offer to rectify the issue

Everyone also needs to consider our Fire Brigade/Departments sorting real danger in the community, especially in summer months, 
instead of blowing their rest time and wasting resources mopping up manufacturer's cheapassery based snafus,
after taking their trusting customers cash  :-- :--
People really need to stop pretending Weller employees are basically sneaking into people's houses setting fires. This is getting ridiculous.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:28:22 pm by Mr. Scram »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #454 on: December 26, 2018, 10:31:32 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.

You're the one pretending that smoke isn't a hazard.

(at least, I hope you're only pretending not to know that)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #455 on: December 26, 2018, 10:32:29 pm »
We're going around in circles. The ability of transformers to limit current and fuses not always being required have been discussed multiple times in this thread.

And in this case it dodn't limit the current so a fuse was necessary.

End of.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #456 on: December 26, 2018, 10:46:56 pm »
You're the one pretending that smoke isn't a hazard.

(at least, I hope you're only pretending not to know that)
We both know that this amount of smoke doesn't present a hazard. Again, let's stay on subject.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:51:19 pm by Mr. Scram »
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #457 on: December 26, 2018, 10:48:17 pm »
And in this case it dodn't limit the current so a fuse was necessary.

End of.
Didn't it? Please refer to this exact discussion earlier in the thread. It's no use going over it again.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #458 on: December 26, 2018, 11:05:55 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.

Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #459 on: December 26, 2018, 11:09:15 pm »
I thought everybody knew it's the smoke that kills people, not the fire.
Cute, but irrelevant. Let's stay on subject.

Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?

Hi,

fuses are a bit like airbags and safety belts in cars. If all drivers were perfect, nobody would need them. In reality ... )
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #460 on: December 26, 2018, 11:21:03 pm »
Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?
As I've mentioned before, I'd love to know what went into that decision. Maybe asking Weller about it would yield some information, though considering their last formal response I'm not getting my hopes up. Without that information it's hard to know whether it's a properly researched decision and therefore engineered product, or that the penny pinchers won one round too many like some here are suggesting.

Considering it's apparently specifically the German designed stations that do have fuses, it wouldn't even surprise me if the answer is essentially "Germans will be Germans".
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #461 on: December 26, 2018, 11:28:44 pm »
Actually, it's not that irrelevant in this case.
If I had switched it on and left the room then the smoke alarm would have gone off and automatically evacuated the entire building and called the fire brigade in which case two fire trucks would have turned up. That's two trucks taken away from any other potential fire.
Sure, for the dozenth time, it was my mistake, and wouldn't have happened under normal circumstances. But if it's no big deal then why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?
As I've mentioned before, I'd love to know what went into that decision. Maybe asking Weller about it would yield some information, though considering their last formal response I'm not getting my hopes up. Without that information it's hard to know whether it's a properly researched decision and therefore engineered product, or that the penny pinchers won one round too many like some here are suggesting.

Considering it's apparently specifically the German designed stations that do have fuses, it wouldn't even surprise me if the answer is essentially "Germans will be Germans".
Oh, yes, only the Germans protect their stations with a fuse: https://www.banggood.com/FX-951-Style-230V-AU-Plug-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Station-p-932704.html?rmmds=buy&cur_warehouse=CN  ::)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #462 on: December 26, 2018, 11:44:18 pm »
Oh, yes, only the Germans protect their stations with a fuse: https://www.banggood.com/FX-951-Style-230V-AU-Plug-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Station-p-932704.html?rmmds=buy&cur_warehouse=CN  ::)
Those are your words, not mine. Please note the context of my reply. I'm not sure I appreciate the context of replies being repeatedly changed to facilitate arguing against them.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #463 on: December 27, 2018, 12:52:04 am »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.

The problem is that there are other ways a transformer can fail, even if a 120 V unit is used at 115 V, e.g. a unexpected short from repeated hot / cold cycles or a damage to the enamel from grid transients. It is these cases that can pose a safety hazard if there is no fuse at the primary of the transformer.  If one sits next to it the smoke is bad enough, but there could also be a fire hazard form the transformer and case getting too hot.  It does not look there is a reliable way for the current to be interrupted in case of an overheating transformer. One should not let the iron run unattended, but this stall happens sometimes by mistake.

Not sure what would have happened if Dave had not turned off the unit when the smoke came out, but took the camera. It is still possible they have flame retardant plastic so they can safely a few cents on the fuse.
I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet so forgive me if I'm repeating something: could it be that the 120V models have to adhere to a safety standard which doesn't assume such fatal errors? The response from Weller seems to be 'the device adheres to safety regulations' (for the market it is sold in) and that is the end of the story.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #464 on: December 27, 2018, 01:31:54 am »
Oh, yes, only the Germans protect their stations with a fuse: https://www.banggood.com/FX-951-Style-230V-AU-Plug-Solder-Soldering-Iron-Station-p-932704.html?rmmds=buy&cur_warehouse=CN  ::)
Those are your words, not mine. Please note the context of my reply. I'm not sure I appreciate the context of replies being repeatedly changed to facilitate arguing against them.
Oh, well, if you meant something else, i didn't understood what it was. Sorry.
 
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Online Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #465 on: December 27, 2018, 01:58:32 am »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.
I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet so forgive me if I'm repeating something: could it be that the 120V models have to adhere to a safety standard which doesn't assume such fatal errors? The response from Weller seems to be 'the device adheres to safety regulations' (for the market it is sold in) and that is the end of the story.
If that is the case then IMHO that safety standard is defective due to the significant risk of 240V being applied to a 120V appliance if it is on a multi-wire branch circuit in accordance with US NEC 210.4(B).  All it takes is a high load on the other phase, and a high resistance or open neutral, which can be due to as small a defect as a loose or otherwise improperly applied wirenut.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #466 on: December 27, 2018, 08:49:28 am »
why do Weller have fuses on almost all of their other products which have identical functionality?
Simple. When you pay extra for a higher end station then you get more features, such as being able to keep your iron after stuffing too much voltage into it.
 

Offline nuclearcat

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #467 on: December 27, 2018, 08:56:45 am »
Using a 120 V unit at 240 V is not the typical failure case, and there is no complaint about the unit blowing up.
I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet so forgive me if I'm repeating something: could it be that the 120V models have to adhere to a safety standard which doesn't assume such fatal errors? The response from Weller seems to be 'the device adheres to safety regulations' (for the market it is sold in) and that is the end of the story.
If that is the case then IMHO that safety standard is defective due to the significant risk of 240V being applied to a 120V appliance if it is on a multi-wire branch circuit in accordance with US NEC 210.4(B).  All it takes is a high load on the other phase, and a high resistance or open neutral, which can be due to as small a defect as a loose or otherwise improperly applied wirenut.
I am getting from time to time portable propane heater units from friends to repair. Units seems imported as second hand, from japan, japanese language everywhere.
They are all 100V and big transformer with lot of secondary windings(no SMPS shit). All of units are fused + MOV on high side, for overvoltage protection, and this scheme works perfectly (220V here, and mistakes happen a lot) saving the units all the time. After changing failed parts i remove plug and solder it to 220V/100V transformer directly :)
As with companies like Weller, they sell units that are barely changing for many years, despite technology evolved a lot (and recent amazing chinese soldering stations dave reviewed prove that), so Weller still have sales just because of their past reliability and reputation.
MOV cost $0.2 in quantity, fuse was mentioned as $1. Seems Weller reputation flushed to toilet because of this $1.2 .
 
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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #468 on: December 27, 2018, 10:26:39 am »
As with companies like Weller, they sell units that are barely changing for many years, despite technology evolved a lot (and recent amazing chinese soldering stations dave reviewed prove that), so Weller still have sales just because of their past reliability and reputation.
MOV cost $0.2 in quantity, fuse was mentioned as $1. Seems Weller reputation flushed to toilet because of this $1.2 .

Yep, nice executive summary of the issue. >:D
 
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Offline DL3CE

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #469 on: December 27, 2018, 12:35:47 pm »
For europe:

I only read citations because I didn't buy the original standard EN 61558 (a thing I hate with passion, since those standards are quasi-law, therefore they should be available for free..), but it seems that they are "safety transformers" which are short-circuit proof (the Weller transformer bears the symbol for this) and don't need to be fused, but one interesting point is, that they aren't allowed to have multiple primary voltages or, for non-mobile devices, they have to be changable only with specific tools.

So I think they totally knew that they will smoke if subjected to higher than normal voltage and forbade switchable input voltage since they thought of "choosing a wrong voltage" as an to be expected "oops". But "wrong voltage out of the wall socket" was "that won't really happen" ... I don't agree with that.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #470 on: December 27, 2018, 10:08:26 pm »
Weller WES51 transformer is a different bird at 40VA. Previously a custom Tyco part, 4000 series 4000-01E07G827, Tyco 2-1611453-5, Class II UL1585. Get this from Tyco:
"Inherently Energy Limited Transformers - Class II transformers up to 50 VA are “Inherently Limited” which means that the transformer, if overloaded, will short itself out and fail safely, not requiring a fuse."  :-DD

Looking at IEC 61558 Transformer Safety, Part 15 on short-circuit testing and considering the WE1010 is almost twice the power 80-100VA would be a "non-inherently short-circuit proof transformer".

15.3.1  "The output terminals are short-circuited...."
15.3.2  "If protected by a fuse... the transformer is loaded for a time T and with a current equal to
k  times  the  current  marked  on  the  transformer  as  the  rated  current  of  the  protective  fuse-
link, where k and T have the values shown in Table 4." {This is 1hr at 210% rated unless the polyfuse is easier}

The safety standard fails to say where the fuse is located- at the transformer input or output winding.
Secondary fuses are downstream of both windings, thereby useless at covering a transformer (winding) fault.
The safety standard fails to state where the output terminals are- before or after the Weller secondary fuse bodge?

It looks like a vague, poorly worded safety standard that can get exploited. Engineers have to let common sense prevail and "fuseless technology" would make most of us gasp.
If you want to see the hazard, run the station on 120VAC and short the transformer secondary or load it at max. power. Then grab a coffee.
 
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Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #471 on: December 28, 2018, 11:12:30 am »
<cut>
Looking at IEC 61558 Transformer Safety, Part 15 on short-circuit testing and considering the WE1010 is almost twice the power 80-100VA would be a "non-inherently short-circuit proof transformer".

15.3.1  "The output terminals are short-circuited...."
15.3.2  "If protected by a fuse... the transformer is loaded for a time T and with a current equal to
k  times  the  current  marked  on  the  transformer  as  the  rated  current  of  the  protective  fuse-
link, where k and T have the values shown in Table 4." {This is 1hr at 210% rated unless the polyfuse is easier}

<cut>

The transformer is not truly protected by a fuse if there is only a fuse on the secondary
- the secondary side fuse is protecting against overloads on the output, preventing a long term short-circuit of the output terminals.

Selecting the correct standard is not always easy, it requires extensive knowledge - and faults can be made. Responsible entities will correct their mistakes - will, well - or err?
 

Offline Asad

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #472 on: December 28, 2018, 12:46:41 pm »
As with companies like Weller, they sell units that are barely changing for many years, despite technology evolved a lot (and recent amazing chinese soldering stations dave reviewed prove that), so Weller still have sales just because of their past reliability and reputation.

Link?
 

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #473 on: December 28, 2018, 01:03:17 pm »
When I was young, we didn't need no "fancy" soldering sticks. :-// Heat came in 4 models. The extreme heavy duty, the heavy duty, the medium and the last for fine 0402 work.
If you lost heat change the tank, or plug it in. If you lost a tip, just make one up out of a #00 round copper buss bar, #10 or #12 wire. She'll be good as new.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 01:15:23 pm by Quarlo Klobrigney »
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #474 on: December 28, 2018, 04:19:17 pm »
When I was young, we didn't need no "fancy" soldering sticks. :-// Heat came in 4 models. The extreme heavy duty, the heavy duty, the medium and the last for fine 0402 work.
If you lost heat change the tank, or plug it in. If you lost a tip, just make one up out of a #00 round copper buss bar, #10 or #12 wire. She'll be good as new.
:-DD :-DD :-DD

How far have we come... we didn't have the torch or the fancy guns (so expensive back then that it was relegated to the professionals), but we certainly has a 30W "stick" for the delicate jobs and a heavier 120W stick for the chassis' jobs.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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