Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 54971 times)

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Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #500 on: December 29, 2018, 06:21:52 am »
> IEC C14

Exactly.  IEC failure, safety standards, etc.

Seems IEC is a bit too standard or the safety standards don't reflect the potential issues properly.  Wax on, wax off with the mains fuse aside.

Pointing blame at weller for selling a US specific model then somehow it gets exported...its their fault the product is placed in a condition it was never designed for.  Bit overkill IMO.  Fuse is cheap enough, so it seems silly to omit.  If they sell it world wide, shame on them for not adding a fuse.  Again, what are the real safety standards in this case??

If its a US only product, the chances of this happening are extremely low IMO.  Even at that, a class 2 limited trany as far as I have seen will put on a spectacular smoke show without fire.  So where really is the failure that allows for this?  Why is the primary fuse a choice is my question.

I have to wonder why IEC power cords are all different on one end- but not the other. What's the point really? You need a unique power cord for each country anyhow.

Transformers, as a component have two windings and the error is in putting the fuse after them, as Weller has done.
Either winding can fail partial or full short circuit. Turn #200 can short to turn #199 or to turn #1. In either winding. Or it can simply arc inside for a while. The heat generated is unpredictable, you don't know fault current, it could be 300W or 1500W. I have seen badly burnt power transformers, charred and blackened equipment. They don't always fail in a polite manner with the mains breaker tripping.

A Class 2 transformer protects the LOAD from overcurrents. Think of your doorbell wiring shorting with only the transformer's inherent current-limiting to stop the wiring from burning up. This is done with high primary impedance (OK to around 50VA) and higher power require a secondary fuse/circuit breaker - all to chiefly protect the load from fire, and give some overload protection to the transformer output. The transformer itself can still overheat or fail and needs a protective element at its input.

240V in to a 120V part is not "normal operation" so the safety standards could care less.
The failure is running a 120VAC station off 120VAC, with a failure of that power transformer- with no fuse there is no coverage other than the mains breaker.

There are at least four applicable safety standards and going down that rabbit hole is complicated here. Which one requires a fuse and which one bungled it, is a long dig.

Another mistake may be in the component (transformer) standard or the product (soldering iron station) standard being the place to call for a fuse. Each standard can assume the other's got it covered.
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #501 on: December 29, 2018, 08:36:39 am »
I have to wonder why IEC power cords are all different on one end- but not the other.

It's so that manufacturers don't have to worry about making 12 different versions of their product. They put one standard plug, and you supply the cable. (paying close attention to voltages of course). I thought that was pretty obvious  ???
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #502 on: December 29, 2018, 02:24:35 pm »
I have to wonder why IEC power cords are all different on one end- but not the other.

It's so that manufacturers don't have to worry about making 12 different versions of their product. They put one standard plug, and you supply the cable. (paying close attention to voltages of course). I thought that was pretty obvious  ???

I think his point was, why bother with 12 different power cord versions - at least if the intent of the plug design is to prevent miss-connection, then the standard IEC bypasses that safety feature. But then, I do not know the real reason why the plug designs are different, if it was nothing more than chance.

It seems to me a standard connector as such should require the device to take all possible power supplies without fault.
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #503 on: December 29, 2018, 03:22:57 pm »
Yes, i also think that IEC connectors should only be used for equipments with PSUs that can be used worldwide. Otherwise, it would be a far better idea to have a different equipment-side connector for every voltage, or why not the cable going directly into the case? Specially in this case, as a soldering station will just sit on a bench all it's life, so it's not inconvenient to have a permanently attached cable.

Back in the day, all computer PSUs had a 220/110v switch, which caused some trouble, as it was common to have 220 to 110v transformers lying around (some equipment sold here was designed for 110v only at that time. Don't ask me why as we never had 110v mains).
Nowadays only 220v PSUs are sold. That probably has to do with a law from some years ago.

Still, no one asks weller to desing their stations to survive misconnections to 240v mains, but that doesn't means that it can release such a smoke screen if you do, because a lack of protection for the transformer's primary. Lets hope that they don't get a faulty batch of transformers that develops a fault on the primary side after some use.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 03:28:21 pm by fsr »
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #504 on: December 29, 2018, 06:39:10 pm »
if the intent of the plug design is to prevent miss-connection
It's not. Like I said, the intent is to have a easily swappable cable. Power leads tend to break a lot.

But then, I do not know the real reason why the plug designs are different
same reason we drive on different sides of the road I guess.

a standard connector as such should require the device to take all possible power supplies
I guess in North America people just don't treat others like they're children, or stupid. They don't like nanny governments and like to take responsibility for themselves. After all, it's only 120V, so the worst case is you get a little tickle. If YOU use lethal voltage where you live, that's your problem. It's up to YOU not to kill yourself.

Barrel jacks have the same shape with many different voltages. Do we really need 50,000 different connectors for everything? (don't answer that)
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #505 on: December 29, 2018, 07:01:04 pm »
I'm saying you already have a unique product build for each region. The power cord, power transformer, mains fuse is different, another bill-of-materials, so what to gain from the common C14 connector? I think it might even add cost.
Low cost stations just use a power cord+strain relief with no IEC receptacle.

IEC 60320 could have spec'd coloured keyways to prevent a 100/120vac to 240vac happening. Maybe they assumed there is a fuse to cover it.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #506 on: December 29, 2018, 11:32:24 pm »
@ 10:32



There's the fuse.


Yay! That's what we is talkin about :clap: :clap: 

and so-o-o easy to knock up another one Jerry Riggovitch style with component leg offcuts, and solder it in

or if the warranty is up, and now that the unit is open, consider soldering in a proper fuse holder

If companies like TooHungLoW can install one of the cheapest fuse arrangements as seen on EEVblog #596 "World's Cheapest Soldering Iron",   
why can't (won't) a reputable brand like Weller?   :-//

at the least solder a fuse link straight to the PCB that will blow or sizzle away to oblivion under most 120/240/440 volts fault conditions.
LOL that's as cheap as I can think of (at the moment ::)) to score bean counters more coke and casino money to blow   :D

I've seen this arrangement on primary and secondaries and it works.
Well quite a few transformer powered items with a 120/240 selector are still kicking many years later after being to hell and back a few times  >:D 
the fuse links still intact with no apparent sunburn anywhere or trannie rattle 

BTW: Does anyone in Australia sell/distribute fuse link wire in bulk lengths and various amperage ratings ? 
besides the common 8, 15 and 30 amp stuff for older electrical switchboards 

I've tried all the major electrical places, no go so far.
 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 11:35:29 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #507 on: December 30, 2018, 12:15:42 am »
There's nothing magical about tinned copper fuse wire.
See http://electricguru.in/page_view.php?id=29 for wire sizes.
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #508 on: December 30, 2018, 03:30:20 pm »

a standard connector as such should require the device to take all possible power supplies
I guess in North America people just don't treat others like they're children, or stupid. They don't like nanny governments and like to take responsibility for themselves. After all, it's only 120V, so the worst case is you get a little tickle. If YOU use lethal voltage where you live, that's your problem. It's up to YOU not to kill yourself.
Fallacy. Then explain to me how come US was the first to make brake lights mandatory if not to increase safety? How NEC now mandates AFCIs on new constructions if not to increase safety? How US was one of the earliest places to mandate GFCIs on wet areas if not to increase safety? How US adopted the PRND in automatic transmission if not to increase safety? The examples are too many to count, but certainly laws and regulations were created to minimize the possibility of hazard.

Also, 120V is more than enough to cause a cardiac arrest, not a tingle.

Barrel jacks have the same shape with many different voltages. Do we really need 50,000 different connectors for everything? (don't answer that)

Barrel jacks with different voltages and polarity are a cause for grief for many years now, but the only difference is that power is not in excess of 1000~2000W with the increased possibility of a fire or injury hazard.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #509 on: December 30, 2018, 08:17:31 pm »
Those are all sensible improvements.
But there are just as many examples that show you have some level of personal responsibility. For example, you can still stick your finger in an edison socket.

Also, 120V is more than enough to cause a cardiac arrest, not a tingle.
Maybe with sweaty hands and a weak heart.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #510 on: December 30, 2018, 10:57:48 pm »
Deleting that transformer fuse for North American models saved Weller 3 pennies!  Unbelievable  :palm:
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #511 on: December 31, 2018, 12:38:00 am »
Also, 120V is more than enough to cause a cardiac arrest, not a tingle.
Maybe with sweaty hands and a weak heart.
But they do use ground fault interrupters in the US, right?
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #512 on: December 31, 2018, 03:21:38 am »
But they do use ground fault interrupters in the US, right?

US was one of the earliest places to mandate GFCIs on wet areas

GFCI = ground-fault circuit interrupter

I've only ever seen them in bathrooms though. Oh and the backyard.
 

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #513 on: December 31, 2018, 10:37:36 am »
Bathrooms, hot tubs - spas, kitchens, outside outlets which are required at the front and rear of the home, the rear at an HVAC installation and must have a lockout at the distribution panel. Dishwashers & garbage disposals, yada yada yada.
Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #514 on: December 31, 2018, 01:40:50 pm »
The examples are too many to count, but certainly laws and regulations were created to minimize the possibility of hazard.

Even more laws and regulations advance rent seeking under the guise of safety.
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #515 on: December 31, 2018, 01:56:25 pm »
But they do use ground fault interrupters in the US, right?

US was one of the earliest places to mandate GFCIs on wet areas

GFCI = ground-fault circuit interrupter

I've only ever seen them in bathrooms though. Oh and the backyard.
That's surprising. I wouldn't bet on the conditions and just protect every circuit with them. Better to be safe than sorry.
I don't mean thay they should be mandatory by law for any circuit, but i would install them anyways.
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #516 on: December 31, 2018, 07:36:08 pm »
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #517 on: December 31, 2018, 08:13:22 pm »
"Weird and stupid laws, but in the books."

An epidemic problem throughout society these days. If you take a look at the latest IEE wiring regs, you'd think the Mad Hatter had been suffering a bout of OCD when he wrote them. The regulations for handling a live nuclear missile are simpler.  (I do not exaggerate!) I recall seeing two electricians arguing over simple job of feeding power to a shed, and eventually telling the owner that it couldn't be done within the regs. The owner was using a trailing extension, and wanted it replaced with a safer arrangement. Guess he didn't get his safer arrangement and is still probably using the extension.  |O

Even worse are the vehicle test (MoT) regulations, which started out as basic safety checks but have become equally insane.  In the States they don't have any equivalent, it being up to owners to maintain their vehicles, and they reckon that vehicle defects account for only a tiny percentage of accidents.

The MoT test may actually discourage people from maintaining their cars properly, because almost any vehicle can be declared unroadworthy for some obscure reason, and if you've spent a wad of cash on brakes or tyres in the last few months then you are going to feel a right idiot.  So, you don't. You wait until the certificate runs out before changing anything. Whereas in the USA there would be no disincentive to fixing it rightaway, so unless you were really hard-up you probably would. You wonder how many unsafe vehicles are on the UK roads for just this reason. As always, beware the Law of Unintended Consequences.
 

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #518 on: January 01, 2019, 12:28:18 am »
I always do. It's lined with alfoil. :scared:

Quote from: timelessbeing on Today at 15:36:08
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #519 on: January 01, 2019, 01:19:33 am »
I always do. It's lined with alfoil. :scared:

Quote from: timelessbeing on Today at 15:36:08
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"


Make sure you hook it up to your wireless esd wrist strap
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #520 on: January 01, 2019, 10:13:05 am »


Deleting that transformer fuse for North American models saved Weller 3 pennies!  Unbelievable  :palm:



Let's do the math:

Minimum Order of 10,000 at .029 cents U.S., plus shipping, let's make it tidy and call it all up $300

$300 well spent to reduce the likely-hood of 10,000 properties catching fire

less resource wastage and stress on Fire Brigade/Departments

and keeps things sweet with Weller's reputation on those 10,000 units sold.


A backyard battling tech would flex their credit card and pay that for peace of mind,

mod the gear with those temperature fuses to make stuff  'safer' with less comebacks :phew:

keep some spares on hand (100, 1000?)

and sell off the rest (to Weller perhaps?  ::) ) to recuperate costs


Then again, maybe that's too complicated for most manufacturing companies nowadays to digest  ???  :-\ 

plus the fact that $300 saved can score a bean counter a few snorts of coke, and or a couple of roulette wheel spins... :popcorn:

 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #521 on: January 01, 2019, 12:37:37 pm »
Let's not forget that just purchasing a part is not all that is involved.  It has to be fitted, at least.  That won't involve a lot of cost, but it won't be zero.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #522 on: January 01, 2019, 02:41:09 pm »
Their more recent but old Magnestat stations include a primary side fuse on the inside and I have never even heard of one blowing.  I do not know about their older ones.
 

Offline fsr

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #523 on: January 01, 2019, 04:53:11 pm »
Better wear a helmet when you leave the house too. "Just in case"
We do have GFCIs for every circuit. Of course, we have 220v. Anyways, the GFCIs won't only protect people, but as they trip with only 30 mA of current, instead of the several amps of a circuit breaker, they also provide improved fire protection.
 

Offline sbode

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #524 on: January 01, 2019, 04:54:28 pm »
My Ersa i-con has a primary side fuse, and a spare fuse. Attached is a mini-slideshow-teardown :)
Hi all,
I'm shocked about Weller.
I looked on my Ersa icon-2: it's a 120W system for up to two devices and it has a 1.25A primary Fuse for the 230V Version.

I have also an old Ersa TE50 24V 80W iron with a desoldering adapter, working since 1978 !
It has an NiCrNi thermo and controlled via an old Elektor analog control. ... (Yes analog technologý of the 70's which is going really fine)

Cheers

STephan
 


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