Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 48965 times)

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Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #575 on: January 02, 2019, 10:53:54 pm »
FWIW I don't agree DJ should cop the rap of 'user error' on a unit made by a company that flogs it's wares to a 120 volt @ 60 hz nation that also has a 240 volt supply.

DJ plugged it in and the unit smoked because the manufacturer FAILED to deploy a cheap fusing device to prevent an input voltage mishap,
and no real obvious appropriate caution labeling   

I'll still happily cop the user error tag.
But I do think that the use of a universal IEC socket without a mains fuse is begging for trouble in today's global economy. And the voltage label is on the bottom, not the back where the plug is.
If it had a fixed mains cable and 120V plug (like Hakko do) then they could get away with it. But even in this case, Hakko have a fuse.

The car industry in the old times claimed that safety belts and crash energy reduction zones where not neccessary because it was always the fault of the driver.
The turning point was that even a faulty driver should be given a chance to survive.
Shit happens - just make sure that there is a safe way to fail.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #576 on: January 02, 2019, 10:58:22 pm »
Dave, this is the third time you've repeated yourself. I've attempted to answer you twice already, so I'll let you scroll back. But really, the only ones who can answer that are Weller.

Because people keep asking over and over again why people are making a big deal over this. And they keep coming back with the argument that it's 240V into a 120V tranny so it deserved to fail etc.

Right, so you post without reading. The fuse justification you keep repeating is that Weller puts them in their higher end stations. Explain.

I don't read every post in this thread, if you have made a point somewhere and I didn't respond then either post it again or provide a direct link.

The explanation does NOT need to come from us, it needs to come from Weller. They are the ones that seemingly hold contradictory opinion on whether and why a mains primary fuse is needed, when it is industry standard practice to do so.
Quite frankly if any engineer at all the companies I've worked at proposed leaving out a mains primary fuse (for insert reason), they'd get shouted out or given the arse.
In fact it would be borderline against official professional liability training at companies I've worked at. i.e. the engineer makes a deliberate willful decision to remove a safety device against industry standard practice, that puts the personal liability on to them (and those that approve it). Sure, you can justify it and have the data to back up the decision, but the amount of work to do that is a lot, it's just silly, add the fuse and be done with it.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #577 on: January 02, 2019, 11:00:19 pm »
The car industry in the old times claimed that safety belts and crash energy reduction zones where not neccessary because it was always the fault of the driver.
The turning point was that even a faulty driver should be given a chance to survive.
Shit happens - just make sure that there is a safe way to fail.
You seem to insist on making the comparison to safety belts. Can you demonstrate that the actual impact of omitting the safety feature is similar in both cases? Or is it more like not fitting traction control?
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #578 on: January 02, 2019, 11:02:50 pm »
And the voltage label is on the bottom, not the back where the plug is.
Yeah, this is dumb.
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #579 on: January 02, 2019, 11:07:42 pm »
The car industry in the old times claimed that safety belts and crash energy reduction zones where not neccessary because it was always the fault of the driver.
That is suspiciously ignorant reasoning. Collisions often involve two vehicles. Usually, one party is at fault. Can you cite an example?

The turning point was that even a faulty driver should be given a chance to survive.
I think the death toll was turning point. You are making shit up.
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #580 on: January 02, 2019, 11:11:58 pm »
The car industry in the old times claimed that safety belts and crash energy reduction zones where not neccessary because it was always the fault of the driver.
The turning point was that even a faulty driver should be given a chance to survive.
Shit happens - just make sure that there is a safe way to fail.
You seem to insist on making the comparison to safety belts. Can you demonstrate that the actual impact of omitting the safety feature is similar in both cases? Or is it more like not fitting traction control?
Safety belts are just a trivial example. They saved a lot of lives before traction control was invented. IMHO, you are completely missing the point. As Dave has pointed out above, it is incredibly silly to do something that Weller did, for what reason *ever*.  In all the academic discussion, I found only *one* explicable reason to leave out the fuse : greed. Very human, but still silly. Or have I missed some incredibly smart theory that a fuse would do more harm than good ?  >:D
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 11:13:37 pm by Wolfgang »
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #581 on: January 02, 2019, 11:16:47 pm »
Still the wrong logic. Also the guilty should survive. You may read about the discussions regarding car safety between the manufacturers of cars and the US administration. The state inforced better protection (crash tests, ...) and the car industry tried to cut cost as much as they could.
 

Online Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #582 on: January 02, 2019, 11:20:30 pm »
 ;D   ROFL at witch hunt accusations, Cadillac lane keep cameras, plastic versus metal car ramps, 'user error' stone throwing, scapegoat crucifixions, bandwagon jumping, safety belts,
keeping tabs and nagging the OP for repeating themselves over a 20+ page span...  ;D

----------------

If companies like Behringer that make affordable gear can fit IEC sockets with labelled 120/240v flippable idiot-proof fuse holders (I'll have to drum up a picture asap),
EDIT: picture posted 
Weller should have been on that wagon over 20 years ago.
 
I'm assuming DJ may have a 240 to 120 volt stepdown box or Variac kicking in the lab,

which would have come in handy -IF- Weller made some effort to label the unit
and or supply an incompatible IEC female to 120 volt plug cable,

or better still fit a ---FUSE--- in the thing too,

so all he had to do was 'DOH...!'  :-[    fork out a couple of bucks for a new fuse,

plug the recovered unit into the stepdown or variac, and continue on  :clap:


WORST CASE SCENARIO  :scared:  Had it been left unattended and caught fire in a business complex, or in a stacked shoe/dog box apartment tower,
let's talk about the price of lives and property versus the price of a fuse and thermal cutout. 


The only 'user error' here was failing to suspect the possibility of penny pinching that's wormed it's way into a reputable brand,

or 'Weller Error' in the design of these particular units,

hey **it happens, we understand > just FIX IT

and clue up the PR department in correct damage control procedures for now and next time,

so all can be well (er) again,

and the issue blows away...   :phew:


« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 12:08:55 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #583 on: January 02, 2019, 11:24:21 pm »
Safety belts are just a trivial example. They saved a lot of lives before traction control was invented. IMHO, you are completely missing the point. As Dave has pointed out above, it is incredibly silly to do something that Weller did, for what reason *ever*.  In all the academic discussion, I found only *one* explicable reason to leave out the fuse : greed. Very human, but still silly. Or have I missed some incredibly smart theory that a fuse would do more harm than good ?  >:D
Something so incredibly silly should be incredibly easy to demonstrate or prove with numbers. We haven't exactly seen that, which is all that's asked for. If it's not that easy to demonstrate anything, maybe the difference isn't as big as is claimed.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 11:28:41 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #584 on: January 02, 2019, 11:27:03 pm »
;D   ROFL at witch hunt accusations, Cadillac lane keep cameras, plastic versus metal car ramps, 'user error' stone throwing, scapegoat crucifixions, bandwagon jumping, safety belts,
keeping tabs and nagging the OP for repeating themselves over a 20+ page span...  ;D

----------------

If companies like Behringer that make affordable gear can fit IEC sockets with labelled 120/240v flippable idiot-proof fuse holders (I'll have to drum up a picture asap),
Weller should have been on that wagon over 20 years ago.
 
I'm assuming DJ may have a 240 to 120 volt stepdown box or Variac kicking in the lab,

which would have come in handy -IF- Weller made some effort to label the unit
and or supply an incompatible IEC female to 120 volt plug cable,

or better still fit a ---FUSE--- in the thing too,

so all he had to do was 'DOH...!'  :-[    fork out a couple of bucks for a new fuse,

plug the recovered unit into the stepdown or variac, and continue on  :clap:


WORST CASE SCENARIO  :scared:  Had it been left unattended and caught fire in a business complex, or in a stacked shoe/dog box apartment tower,
let's talk about the price of lives and property versus the price of a fuse and thermal cutout. 


The only 'user error' here was failing to suspect the possibility of penny pinching that's wormed it's way into a reputable brand,

or 'Weller Error' in the design of these particular units,

hey **it happens, we understand > just FIX IT

and clue up the PR department in correct damage control procedures for now and next time,

so all can be well (er) again,

and the issue blows away...   :phew:
There's a lot of these posts with a lot of noise and fairly far fetched scenarios, but they're ultimately just reiterations of the same position on the matter. You want Weller to fix it. We got it. We're discussing how reasonable that demand actually is.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #585 on: January 02, 2019, 11:27:37 pm »
if you have made a point somewhere and I didn't respond then either post it again
Three times? Kinda rude.

industry standard practice

OK they went against the status quo.   :-//

that puts the personal liability on to them
and what has the liability been so far? (when using them as intended)

I still feel like I can put this device on my bench and use it without worry. This video proves nothing.
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #586 on: January 02, 2019, 11:32:06 pm »
You could ask your countless competitors that have a fuse in them why they did it.  :)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #587 on: January 02, 2019, 11:39:56 pm »
You could ask your countless competitors that have a fuse in them why they did it.  :)
That'd be interesting, but not as interesting as knowing why they didn't. "Because everyone else does it" is a terrible line of reasoning, even if it's legally sensible.
 
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Online Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #588 on: January 02, 2019, 11:41:45 pm »

I still feel like I can put this device on my bench and use it without worry. This video proves nothing.


I'm with you bro  :-+

I'm happy to put this device on my bench too, and use it without worry, 
only after I mod it with fusing and a temp cutout,
and then hook it up to a source of 120 volts AC.   :clap:

This video proves you can't assume a reputable manufacturer gets it right all the time.  :palm:
 
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Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #589 on: January 02, 2019, 11:44:43 pm »
You could ask your countless competitors that have a fuse in them why they did it.  :)
That'd be interesting, but not as interesting as knowing why they didn't. "Because everyone else does it" is a terrible line of reasoning, even if it's legally sensible.
Then I propose a new Weller Ad Slogan: "The ones without a fuse ! Fused devices are for sissies !".  >:D
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #590 on: January 02, 2019, 11:53:10 pm »
I'm happy to put this device on my bench too, and use it without worry, 
only after I mod it with fusing and a temp cutout,
and then hook it up to a source of 120 volts AC.   :clap:
I wouldn't. If Weller decided to save on safety features, what else have they saved on?

I took a serious look at Weller a year ago when I bought a new soldering station. I'm happy to say I bought a station from someone else (and as it isn't a Weller it is fused).
 
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Online Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #591 on: January 03, 2019, 12:06:07 am »

Here we go, I just saved Weller millions of dollars/euros of R+D work for their future models

and FREE retro-fit of current 120 volt ones   :clap:

I'll kit out my bench with some of them, once they post out the "thanks a bunch dude" royalty cheques   8)


 
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #592 on: January 03, 2019, 12:06:41 am »
Then I propose a new Weller Ad Slogan: "The ones without a fuse ! Fused devices are for sissies !".  >:D
Maybe Chinese knock-off stations are more your thing. More blind copying and less original engineering. >:D
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #593 on: January 03, 2019, 12:08:35 am »
I found only *one* explicable reason to leave out the fuse : greed.
Just one eh. Maybe you need to think on it some more.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #594 on: January 03, 2019, 12:13:03 am »
so all he had to do was 'DOH...!'

Are you intentionally ignoring the obvious? How often does one plugin appliances into the wrong voltage?

Had it been left unattended and caught fire in a business complex,
Is exaggeration and scaremongering your only argument?

 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #595 on: January 03, 2019, 12:15:50 am »
This video proves you can't assume a reputable manufacturer gets it right all the time.  :palm:
uh huh... because you said so?
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #596 on: January 03, 2019, 12:16:31 am »
Then I propose a new Weller Ad Slogan: "The ones without a fuse ! Fused devices are for sissies !".  >:D
Maybe Chinese knock-off stations are more your thing. More blind copying and less original engineering. >:D
Agreed. Leaving out a fuse *is* highly original. I use a XyTronics (not really cheap, and it has a fuse). No smoke so far.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #597 on: January 03, 2019, 12:17:47 am »
once they post out the "thanks a bunch dude" royalty cheques   8)
Let us know how it goes. Better yet, go design and sell millions of stations and I'll eat my hat.
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #598 on: January 03, 2019, 12:17:53 am »
I found only *one* explicable reason to leave out the fuse : greed.
Just one eh. Maybe you need to think on it some more.

No. Its *your* turn to prove that Wellers decision was not silly. The audience is waiting ...
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #599 on: January 03, 2019, 12:19:25 am »
Are you intentionally ignoring the obvious? How often does one plugin appliances into the wrong voltage?

Is exaggeration and scaremongering your only argument?
You have to wonder why there's a need to constantly field gross exaggerations when it's such an open-and-shut case.
 


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