Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 159242 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 929
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #600 on: January 03, 2019, 01:09:08 am »
If pros can build equipment without fuses, why should'nt laymen vote ?
:clap:
Encore!
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1773
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #601 on: January 03, 2019, 01:11:01 am »
If pros can build equipment without fuses, why should'nt laymen vote ?
You ask the passengers how to fly the aircraft?

Depends on the pilots. With Weller, not so sure.  >:D
 
The following users thanked this post: Electro Detective

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #602 on: January 03, 2019, 01:20:15 am »
Depends on the pilots. With Weller, not so sure.  >:D
What kind of airlines do you fly with?
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1773
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #603 on: January 03, 2019, 01:25:13 am »
I fly only boring ones (having extra low accident ratings). As I told you, I was working in the insurance industry for a long time, so I got a bit risk-averse. moreover, I am a pilot myself (AS350). Old machine design, but very solid. A lot of fuses there  :)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #604 on: January 03, 2019, 01:26:58 am »
I fly only boring ones (having extra low accident ratings). As I told you, I was working in the insurance industry for a long time, so I got a bit risk-averse. moreover, I am a pilot myself (AS350). Old machine design, but very solid. A lot of fuses there  :)
How many times did your pilots ask the passengers how to fly the aircraft?
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1773
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #605 on: January 03, 2019, 01:29:54 am »
I was lucky that my flight instructors had all their fuses working. On top of that, I refused to fly with "adventurous" people or people taking shortcuts.
I am still there, some others are not.  >:D
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11790
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #606 on: January 03, 2019, 01:31:03 am »
Reply: not too difficult to do with an appliance fitted with a standard 120/240 IEC socket...   :clap:
So how many times has it happened to you?

The first time I've seen it happen was in the 1980's. And I'm sure it's happened many times in the decades since.

Situation: staging/test facility for systems that might be destined for 240 V countries. Therefore both 120 V 60 Hz and 240 V 50 Hz outlets were present and in use. VT 220 terminals have an IEC connector and work on a fixed voltage. VT 220 terminals configured for 120 V don't like being connected to 240 V. They go poof!
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #607 on: January 03, 2019, 01:37:51 am »
I was lucky that my flight instructors had all their fuses working. On top of that, I refused to fly with "adventurous" people or people taking shortcuts.
I am still there, some others are not.  >:D
So, no passengers were ever asked how to fly the aircraft. That's why a poll isn't a good idea. You almost drifted a bit off-topic there, but we got there in the end.
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1773
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #608 on: January 03, 2019, 01:41:05 am »
All wrong. If the pilots have no fuses, it might be all too late to ask. Fuses are all about *prevention*.  >:D
 

Online EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #609 on: January 03, 2019, 01:42:12 am »
if you have made a point somewhere and I didn't respond then either post it again
Three times? Kinda rude.

There are over 800 posts a day on this forum, and this thread alone has 25 pages of posts, I can't possible read them all.
Kinda rude of you to expect an answer from me, so much so, that you had a whinge instead of actually posting a link, I now refuse to do respond to you.
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 929
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #610 on: January 03, 2019, 01:45:32 am »
Situation: staging/test facility for systems that might be destined for 240 V countries.

In situation where you might have greater than 0.01% chance of a losing a piece of equipment worth thousands of dollars, the fuse starts to make a lot more sense.
 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 929
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #611 on: January 03, 2019, 01:47:00 am »
I now refuse to do respond to you.
ok so nothing's changed


I can't possible read them all.
Kinda rude of you to expect an answer from me,
I don't expect you to read them all Dave. That's perfectly understandable.
I expect that don't repeatedly spew the same argument into a discussion that you don't read.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 01:51:34 am by timelessbeing »
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6923
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #612 on: January 03, 2019, 01:48:33 am »
... Could someone do an actual experiment to test the assumption that a fuse would help? ...

Measured a 120VAC 60Hz transformer to 190VAC with no load. Past 150VAC it gets very loud.
It is an older Hammond (pre-china) 167M25 rated 25.2VAC 3A 75VA, similar in power to the Weller part but a more conservative build. Primary is 4R 0.77H and secondary 0.3R 50mH.

True input power is about 5W 115VAC going to 90W at 190VAC. Effective turns-ratio did not sag as I expected. I got 42VAC out at 190VAC in, I thought it would eventually clip.

You can see primary current skyrockets from 0.25A at 120VAC, the up to 4A at 190VAC. To 240VAC... I did not release the magic smoke. So a fuse would cover long-term primary overvoltage, a thermal fuse as well with that much heat dissipated in the primary it's heating up.

edit: added 60Hz
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 08:44:59 pm by floobydust »
 
The following users thanked this post: EEVblog, oPossum, SeanB, thm_w, Kean, chris_leyson, Mr. Scram

Online EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #613 on: January 03, 2019, 01:53:01 am »
No. Its *your* turn to prove that Wellers decision was not silly. The audience is waiting ...
Thanks for cutting to the chase. It's actually exactly the other way around. The claim is that Weller is doing something incredibly silly or reckless or dangerous. We're get to be presented with any solid evidence for this claim, even though it's reportedly glaringly obvious. Please do so. The audience is waiting. Note that "others do it differently" isn't enough.

No need for "others do it differently. Weller themselves do it differently!
I don't think many are saying it's dangerous as such, it's clearly not as they countless things don't have mains fuses, and the standard (in this case) do not require it.
But it is demonstrably silly - how so? Not only two videos of mine along with 25 pages of responses on what a silly decision it is, and the equally silly public response, but also the fact that most of Weller's other products have a fuse. Most products of Weller's having a safety feature and then a couple of them that deliberately don't is, well, silly. Especially when they refuse to explain why.
 
The following users thanked this post: xrunner, Kean, Wolfgang, floobydust, TheDane

Online EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #614 on: January 03, 2019, 01:55:54 am »
You can see primary current skyrockets from 0.25A at 120VAC, the up to 4A at 190VAC. To 240VAC... I did not release the magic smoke. So a fuse would cover long-term primary overvoltage, a thermal fuse as well with that much heat dissipated in the primary it's heating up.

In this case of 240V on a 120V transformer, a primary fuse would blow almost instantly.
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11790
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #615 on: January 03, 2019, 01:56:38 am »
... Could someone do an actual experiment to test the assumption that a fuse would help? ...

Measured a 120VAC transformer to 190VAC with no load. Past 150VAC it gets very loud.
It is an older Hammond (pre-china) 167M25 rated 25.2VAC 3A 75VA, similar in power to the Weller part but a more conservative build. Primary is 4R 0.77H and secondary 0.3R 50mH.

True input power is about 5W 115VAC going to 90W at 190VAC. Effective turns-ratio did not sag as I expected. I got 42VAC out at 190VAC in, I thought it would eventually clip.

You can see primary current skyrockets from 0.25A at 120VAC, the up to 4A at 190VAC. To 240VAC... I did not release the magic smoke. So a fuse would cover long-term primary overvoltage, a thermal fuse as well with that much heat dissipated in the primary it's heating up.

OK, that's cool. So at the rated load of 75 VA the primary current would be about 700 mA. Meaning a 3 A slow blow fuse should be OK for normal loads and turn on current. But the same 3 A fuse should blow rapidly at 240 V. Meaning such a fuse would be a good way of protecting the transformer from damage.
 

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1773
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #616 on: January 03, 2019, 01:59:55 am »
No. Its *your* turn to prove that Wellers decision was not silly. The audience is waiting ...
Thanks for cutting to the chase. It's actually exactly the other way around. The claim is that Weller is doing something incredibly silly or reckless or dangerous. We're get to be presented with any solid evidence for this claim, even though it's reportedly glaringly obvious. Please do so. The audience is waiting. Note that "others do it differently" isn't enough.



Gents, its a bit late now in good old Europe, so I'll sum up for today.

I disagree that it is the job of consumers to prove that a product is unsafe. I will *never* buy from a company that asks for that. I buy from companies that I trust (see equipment list in my profile). Trust means that if customers has a concern, they will explain what they did and why it is OK. If they have done something wrong or maybe even just risky or unprofessionally, they will admit it and fix it without waffling discussions. In the Weller case I consider this an engineering blunder, a marketing catastrophy and an example of how not not handle customer concerns.

IMHO, everyone is free to decide on the cirteria he has chosen. Mine are the ones above. A weller for me ? Not even with a fuse now.

Have fun, but play safe. Never leave your soldering iron unattended.  >:D
  Wolfgang

 

Offline timelessbeing

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 929
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #617 on: January 03, 2019, 02:01:18 am »
Measured a 120VAC transformer to 190VAC with no load. Past 150VAC it gets very loud.
You should connect a load to it.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12288
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #618 on: January 03, 2019, 02:04:27 am »
You can see primary current skyrockets from 0.25A at 120VAC, the up to 4A at 190VAC. To 240VAC... I did not release the magic smoke. So a fuse would cover long-term primary overvoltage, a thermal fuse as well with that much heat dissipated in the primary it's heating up.

In this case of 240V on a 120V transformer, a primary fuse would blow almost instantly.

Yeah - This is something I felt was painfully obvious from the get-go.

This, together with Dave's clear acceptance of culpability in feeding 240V to the unit says to me we DON'T need to continue with any further references to the 240V user error.  This is not a fair scenario to dump on Weller.


The question of a fuse should be constrained to the usage of the unit at 110V.That is a fair scenario to dump on Weller - nothing else.

JMHO
 

Offline chris_leyson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1541
  • Country: wales
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #619 on: January 03, 2019, 02:15:03 am »
@floobydust. Thanks mate, at least you bothered to make a measurement  :-+ Respect
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #620 on: January 03, 2019, 02:18:33 am »
No need for "others do it differently. Weller themselves do it differently!
I don't think many are saying it's dangerous as such, it's clearly not as they countless things don't have mains fuses, and the standard (in this case) do not require it.
But it is demonstrably silly - how so? Not only two videos of mine along with 25 pages of responses on what a silly decision it is, and the equally silly public response, but also the fact that most of Weller's other products have a fuse. Most products of Weller's having a safety feature and then a couple of them that deliberately don't is, well, silly. Especially when they refuse to explain why.
Some here seem to suggest not having a fuse is equivalent to Weller setting fire to your house or some such sensationalist claims. As you say, a fuse not required by law or regulation and many things don't come with fuses. That already nuances the discussion quite a bit. Beyond that point you'll have to forgive me my ignorance. The two videos and 25 pages have repeated numerous times that's it's silly to do this, but I don't seem to have really seen a solid explanation why. The most prevalent reasoning seems to be "industry standard", which sounds a lot like "you must because you must" and preserving the status quo for the sake of it. And sure it's not an expensive part, but that's not a demonstrable benefit in itself. Apparently the US and EU versions are different in that one us fused and the other isn't, which to me suggests there has been a concious decision there. I'd love to know more about that, but I doubt Weller is going to pop in and elaborate.
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11790
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #621 on: January 03, 2019, 02:42:05 am »
This, together with Dave's clear acceptance of culpability in feeding 240V to the unit says to me we DON'T need to continue with any further references to the 240V user error.  This is not a fair scenario to dump on Weller.

The question of a fuse should be constrained to the usage of the unit at 110V.That is a fair scenario to dump on Weller - nothing else.

I don't really agree with that.

In this case of 240V on a 120V transformer, a primary fuse would blow almost instantly.

For me the question has always been about protecting my device from unnecessary damage. If I do what Dave did and accidentally plug the solder station into the wrong voltage, then without a fuse it will damage the unit beyond repair (I can't trust the transformer after it has started smoking). If there is a fuse and it blows instantly, then the unit may survive my mistake and continue to work.

I would rather not have to replace the soldering station if it can be avoided.
 

Offline Electro Detective

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2715
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #622 on: January 03, 2019, 03:08:21 am »
DJ's souved and dissected Weller carcass should be retrieved from the ---Bin Of Unfused Shame--- and reassembled with a suitable 120/120 CT to 24 volt isolation transformer

($35 to $60 depending on VA requirements  > any decent cheapie tranny should be better enameled than the honey coatings on the crusty deceased one,
and come stock with a thermal fuse fitted with a  -MUST- recommendation to use a primary fuse and the value. Reference: Altronics and Jaycar catalogues)

kit it out with a cheap glass fuse,

wired/connected for 120 volt operation

then plugged into 240 volts and see what happens   :popcorn:


Then swap out the zapped fuse and connect 120 x 2 for 240v, and see if it still works

All proceeding posted on Youtube of course   :clap:

with optional Grande Finale plugged into 440 volts (2 active legs/single phase) with a very temporary 3 phase plug to GPO socket death adapter   :scared: 

I'm betting a properly rated fuse will pop faster, perhaps crack or shatter, and the unit will survive unscathed and back to work
 

« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 09:04:20 am by Electro Detective »
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline bitwelder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: fi
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #623 on: January 03, 2019, 07:46:33 am »
Measured a 120VAC transformer to 190VAC with no load.
Thanks for the experiment.

Just for completeness, 190VAC at 50 or 60 Hz ?
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16560
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #624 on: January 03, 2019, 09:59:04 am »
Are you intentionally ignoring the obvious? How often does one plugin appliances into the wrong voltage?

How often do people crash cars? Are all those annoying harnesses and expensive safety devices really necessary?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf