Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 55740 times)

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #650 on: January 03, 2019, 04:57:35 pm »
a) Doesn't sound like you're trying to build a company, only count beans.
b) What's your opinion of this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/win-a-weller/
I think it's a forum thread?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 05:02:02 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #651 on: January 03, 2019, 05:09:51 pm »
a) Doesn't sound like you're trying to build a company, only count beans.
b) What's your opinion of this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/win-a-weller/
I think it's a forum thread?

What precautions should you take if you give away a Weller (or even sell one on eBay)? Are you responsible for damages?

 

Offline boffin

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #652 on: January 03, 2019, 05:25:06 pm »
The bottom line is that Weller can't admit they've done something wrong (for potential liability reasons); I'm actually surprised that a lot of people here think that the response wouldn't have been pretty much exactly what it was.

But, they can certainly do something in the future, which also wouldn't surprise me at all.  Will be interesting to see if the model 18 months from now includes an external fuse, or thermal fuse in the transformer



 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #653 on: January 03, 2019, 06:23:38 pm »
What precautions should you take if you give away a Weller (or even sell one on eBay)? Are you responsible for damages?
You'd have to ask a lawyer who knows about your local law about the degree of responsibility you have when giving away an item.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #654 on: January 03, 2019, 06:56:55 pm »
What precautions should you take if you give away a Weller (or even sell one on eBay)? Are you responsible for damages?
You'd have to ask a lawyer who knows about your local law about the degree of responsibility you have when giving away an item.

OK, question: As a CEO, are you happy owning a company where people feel they ought top consult a lawyer before they can give away one of your products?

Read that contest thread again (the one where you apparently see nothing special): Somebody is trying to give away a Weller soldering iron and the comments are, "delivered with a cardboard box that can be used to contain the smoke" and "Shame it won't arrive at the winners door in time for New Year Eve, so they miss out of their own personal fireworks display."

This is now Weller's reputation.

All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

If you think that's money well saved then I wouldn't want you in marketing any of my products.

Goodbye!
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #655 on: January 03, 2019, 07:24:26 pm »
OK, question: As a CEO, are you happy owning a company where people feel they ought top consult a lawyer before they can give away one of your products?

Read that contest thread again (the one where you apparently see nothing special): Somebody is trying to give away a Weller soldering iron and the comments are, "delivered with a cardboard box that can be used to contain the smoke" and "Shame it won't arrive at the winners door in time for New Year Eve, so they miss out of their own personal fireworks display."

This is now Weller's reputation.

All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

If you think that's money well saved then I wouldn't want you in marketing any of my products.

Goodbye!
Don't mince my words. You specifically asked me about liability when giving away a product, and I said you'd need to consult a lawyer about your local laws about liability when giving away a product. Any product.

The people who responded in that thread are mostly the same handful of people who have expressed their opinion in this thread. They've seem to taken Dave's cue, but haven't contributed any facts which show worrisome qualities. They simply chimed in. If that's an example of the scale of the rather manufactured outrage, Weller has nothing to worry about. More importantly, outrage isn't evidence or proof. Outrage is an opinion. People or whole groups are continually outraged at all kinds of things. Without proper reasons for that outrage it means nothing. It doesn't grant you special rights or treatment and it doesn't eliminate the need for proving there's actually a quantifiable issue. I'll quote Stephen Fry, and substitute : offended" for "outraged" wherever appropriate. "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

I really don't appreciate being railroaded onto Weller's side. Let's stop fishing, baiting and framing and get back on topic.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:39:39 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #656 on: January 03, 2019, 07:28:37 pm »
Its the combo of bodged in secondary side fusing and no primary side fusing that doesn't inspire confidence.  The secondary side polyfuse positioned where the transformer can heat it is IMHO legitimate to reduce the risk of cooking the transformer as line voltage polyfuses aren't cheap or common, but why in the nine billion names of god is the extra ordinary fuse on the secondary side not the primary side?
 
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Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #657 on: January 03, 2019, 07:39:31 pm »
OK, question: As a CEO, are you happy owning a company where people feel they ought top consult a lawyer before they can give away one of your products?

Read that contest thread again (the one where you apparently see nothing special): Somebody is trying to give away a Weller soldering iron and the comments are, "delivered with a cardboard box that can be used to contain the smoke" and "Shame it won't arrive at the winners door in time for New Year Eve, so they miss out of their own personal fireworks display."

This is now Weller's reputation.

All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

If you think that's money well saved then I wouldn't want you in marketing any of my products.

Goodbye!
Don't mince my words. You specifically asked me about liability when giving away a product, and I said you'd need to consult a lawyer about your local laws about liability when giving away a product. Any product.

The people who responded in that thread are mostly the same handful of people who have expressed their opinion in this thread. They've seem to taken Dave's cue, but haven't contributed any facts which show worrisome qualities. They simply chimed in. If that's an example of the scale of the rather manufactured outrage, Weller has nothing to worry about. More importantly, outrage isn't evidence or proof. Outrage is an opinion. It doesn't grant you special rights or treatment and it doesn't eliminate the need for proving there's actually a quantifiable issue. I'll quote Stephen Fry, and substitute : offended" for "outraged" wherever appropriate. "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

I really don't appreciate being railroaded onto Weller's side. Let's stop fishing, baiting and framing and get back on topic.

Pure demagogics. Of course there are *lot* of products that you can give away without even thinking of asking your lawyer first.

As opposed to your cited Stephen Fry the Weller issue *has* a meaning and a purpose. The meaning is that cutting safety corners is a bad thing, and the purpose is to make Weller stop this practice.

I think your are perfectly in line with spin doctoring. But you have an harsh enemy : common sense.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #658 on: January 03, 2019, 07:56:51 pm »
Pure demagogics. Of course there are *lot* of products that you can give away without even thinking of asking your lawyer first.

As opposed to your cited Stephen Fry the Weller issue *has* a meaning and a purpose. The meaning is that cutting safety corners is a bad thing, and the purpose is to make Weller stop this practice.

I think your are perfectly in line with spin doctoring. But you have an harsh enemy : common sense.
The only sensible answer when people are asking for legal advice on the internet from an unknown place is "go see a local lawyer". Just like the only sensible answer to questions about a medical condition is "go see a doctor". Fungus asked about liability. He should ask a lawyer what trouble he may or may not get himself in when he gives away a product. That all has nothing to do with Weller in particular and attempting to spin it as such is just tiring.

Common sense tells us that something which is apparently so blatantly bad should be easy to prove, but no real quantifiable evidence has been brought forward. Considering this has been going on for many pages now, you have to wonder why this evidence is consistently absent. That there is no real issue seems ever more likely. Angrily disagreeing doesn't change that. Providing something tangible does.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #659 on: January 03, 2019, 08:23:05 pm »
The only sensible answer when people are asking for legal advice on the internet from an unknown place is "go see a local lawyer". Just like the only sensible answer to questions about a medical condition is "go see a doctor". Fungus asked about liability. He should ask a lawyer what trouble he may or may not get himself in when he gives away a product. That all has nothing to do with Weller in particular and attempting to spin it as such is just tiring.

Nope.

The problem is that post-Dave's-video, the owners of Weller soldering irons now know that there's a safety issue. If they have any sort of a conscience then they have to be a lot more careful about selling/giving them to random strangers.

It's not just a simple case of them not working when they arrive after a mixup, it's about them going up in smoke within seconds of being plugged in.

Would you still sell them on eBay, knowing what happens?
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #660 on: January 03, 2019, 10:33:47 pm »
I would like to suggest that DJ reconsider, and take up Weller marketing on their offer of a complimentary Weller station,
but.. insist it be the same 120 volt model.

Fuse the sucker up appropriately so it runs ok on 120v,
but fuse pops on 240v ...minus billowing mushroom clouds   

Post it on Youtube, title it... "Weller Smoke Machine: Round 2"  :box: or similar, and send Weller the URL.

They might snap out of their backslapping 'we can't do wrong' corporate mind cage,
make some phone calls to wherever/whoever really makes their gear,

and rattle out some coins from the XMAS 2019 piggy bank fund,
for a bulk order of fuse holders, fuses, thermal cutouts, some rolls of solder,

and implement -FUSED- Weller soldering station models (or Hakko if cheaper  >:D )  on the assembly line,
to avoid delays due to possible fires and or smoke 

Penny Pinching TIP:  The marketing department can be commissioned to do the work instead of scripting excuses
and get some actual hands on experience with the products they flog market   :clap:


 (( ;D ))

« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 10:47:23 pm by Electro Detective »
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #661 on: January 03, 2019, 11:54:21 pm »
DJ's souved and dissected Weller carcass should be retrieved from the ---Bin Of Unfused Shame--- and reassembled with a suitable 120/120 CT to 24 volt isolation transformer

($35 to $60 depending on VA requirements  > any decent cheapie tranny should be better enameled than the honey coatings on the crusty deceased one,
and come stock with a thermal fuse fitted with a  -MUST- recommendation to use a primary fuse and the value. Reference: Altronics and Jaycar catalogues)
...
I'm betting a properly rated fuse will pop faster, perhaps crack or shatter, and the unit will survive unscathed and back to work

Yeah I agree for sure the unit will survive. What killed it was heat, not overvoltage. The windings would have been tested for well over 240V during manufacture.
But to properly test it, you'd want to use a high voltage isolation test, before and after.

Daves concern was certainly valid though, if it did heat up or smoke at all there is a risk the insulation is damaged.

Its the combo of bodged in secondary side fusing and no primary side fusing that doesn't inspire confidence.  The secondary side polyfuse positioned where the transformer can heat it is IMHO legitimate to reduce the risk of cooking the transformer as line voltage polyfuses aren't cheap or common, but why in the nine billion names of god is the extra ordinary fuse on the secondary side not the primary side?

I argued against this earlier in the thread, there is no thermal coupling from PTC to the core or windings at all, so I don't think it will do much.
There is a reason when a thermal fuse is used on a transformer it is either buried inside the windings or directly coupled to them then tape over top.

Some estimations:
Fuse is 7A (trip of 14A), and secondary is using approx 3A (peak), so 20% of rating. A PTC curve shows we would have to hit over 115C to reduce the fuse rating to 20%, who knows what the winding temp would be at that time, over 200C? I don't think anything could cause the transformer to heat up that much and not already be blowing up/burning something else already.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #662 on: January 04, 2019, 12:08:31 am »
The bottom line is that Weller can't admit they've done something wrong (for potential liability reasons); I'm actually surprised that a lot of people here think that the response wouldn't have been pretty much exactly what it was.

It could have been worded a LOT better without giving them liability.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #663 on: January 04, 2019, 12:12:34 am »
Common sense tells us that something which is apparently so blatantly bad should be easy to prove, but no real quantifiable evidence has been brought forward. Considering this has been going on for many pages now, you have to wonder why this evidence is consistently absent. That there is no real issue seems ever more likely. Angrily disagreeing doesn't change that. Providing something tangible does.

For the dozenth time now, and I'll keep saying it every time someone brings it up, if there is no potential issue then why does Weller have a primary fuse on almost all of their other (identical function) products?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #664 on: January 04, 2019, 12:14:19 am »
Its the combo of bodged in secondary side fusing and no primary side fusing that doesn't inspire confidence.  The secondary side polyfuse positioned where the transformer can heat it is IMHO legitimate to reduce the risk of cooking the transformer as line voltage polyfuses aren't cheap or common, but why in the nine billion names of god is the extra ordinary fuse on the secondary side not the primary side?

The secondary side actually has two fuses, plus the polyswitch. One is on the PCB.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #665 on: January 04, 2019, 12:17:19 am »
All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

I'm waiting for some smart competitor to realise the marketing potential here and a make video with one of their product designers tearing down their product and showing how they have a primary side fuse and how they select the rating and test it etc, and how they take safety more seriously than their competitor  ;D
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #666 on: January 04, 2019, 12:24:38 am »
Its the combo of bodged in secondary side fusing and no primary side fusing that doesn't inspire confidence.  The secondary side polyfuse positioned where the transformer can heat it is IMHO legitimate to reduce the risk of cooking the transformer as line voltage polyfuses aren't cheap or common, but why in the nine billion names of god is the extra ordinary fuse on the secondary side not the primary side?

I argued against this earlier in the thread, there is no thermal coupling from PTC to the core or windings at all, so I don't think it will do much.
There is a reason when a thermal fuse is used on a transformer it is either buried inside the windings or directly coupled to them then tape over top.

Some estimations:
Fuse is 7A (trip of 14A), and secondary is using approx 3A (peak), so 20% of rating. A PTC curve shows we would have to hit over 115C to reduce the fuse rating to 20%, who knows what the winding temp would be at that time, over 200C? I don't think anything could cause the transformer to heat up that much and not already be blowing up/burning something else already.
If the transformer is running hot from near continuous operation at full load, which would heat it up fairly slowly, an appropriate polyfuse will probably save the day by tripping on the full load current due to its elevated temperature and enforcing a cooling off period till it resets.  Its presence is probably an indication that Weller undersized the transformer for average duty cycle rather than speccing it for worst case 100% duty cycle operation,e.g. due to setting max bit temperature to make a long sheet metal joint that will be an excessive thermal load on the bit.  However, if it does in fact have a 7A carrying current, and 14A trip current, it sounds like Weller FUBARed  its selection as well.

The polyfuse wont do *anything* for rapid heating due to a short-circuit on the output - its just too poorly thermally coupled to the winding.   It also cant protect against overheating due to saturation or a shorted turn because its downstream of the possible fault!

Of course what they should have done is either add a safe duty cycle limit for the transformer in the controller firmware, removing the need for a polyfuse, or use an adequately rated transformer for 100% duty cycle operation in the first place . . .

The secondary side actually has two fuses, plus thepolyswitch. One is on the PCB.
Yes. hence my description of the black wire ended one as the 'extra ordinary fuse'.  Knowing that there's a fuse on the PCB, its sheer presence hanging off the secondary terminal indicates a design process SNAFU.

Did anyone note the ratings of all the fuses?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #667 on: January 04, 2019, 01:22:57 am »
The secondary side actually has two fuses, plus thepolyswitch. One is on the PCB.
Yes. hence my description of the black wire ended one as the 'extra ordinary fuse'.  Knowing that there's a fuse on the PCB, its sheer presence hanging off the secondary terminal indicates a design process SNAFU.
Did anyone note the ratings of all the fuses?

Both are 4A. Why you'd have two 4A fuses in series is beyond me.

 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #668 on: January 04, 2019, 02:57:30 am »
All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

I'm waiting for some smart competitor to realise the marketing potential here and a make video with one of their product designers tearing down their product

and showing how they have a primary side fuse and how they select the rating and test it etc, and how they take safety more seriously than their competitor
  ;D

plus demonstrating their unit surviving a 120 to 240 volt    'not entirely 100% user error'  IEC style snafu scenario   

...and mentioning (with URL links) a recent Youtuber down on his luck in this regard, with a competitors product,
and the communication that followed  :palm:

I envisage competitor and fused knockoff sales bolting within weeks, 
Ebay servers grinding to an athritic snails pace flooded with 'Make An Offer' auctions on unfused Wellers

Not that the Sellers will mention the lack of fuse protections in the Description, and just roll with the 'Weller quality' thing...  ;)

If they're going for almost landfill prices, I'll buy them (and a bag of fuses and temperature thingies),
stock up the bench, toss one or two in the tool bags, flog a few modded ones on EEVblog...

I have no doubt the quality will be Weller style, and keepers once fused up  :clap:

 

Offline Warhawk

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #669 on: January 04, 2019, 08:48:15 am »


SCNR  ;)

This is a very sad picture of a typical German Lötplatz. I've been around many labs in Germany since 2010 and all of them suffer from the same phenomenon - all soldering stations set to the highest temperature (typ. to 450°C). Ideally in combination with the smallest tip and flux impossible to find or a dry out flux pen. I mean WTF Deutsche Entwicklern? The WW2 is over, you can reduce heat back to normal. |O
Surprisingly, I am not the only one who recognized this. I always feel like an alien when bringing my own tips, flux and solder with me.

Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #670 on: January 04, 2019, 09:07:33 am »
The secondary side actually has two fuses, plus thepolyswitch. One is on the PCB.
Yes. hence my description of the black wire ended one as the 'extra ordinary fuse'.  Knowing that there's a fuse on the PCB, its sheer presence hanging off the secondary terminal indicates a design process SNAFU.
Did anyone note the ratings of all the fuses?

Both are 4A. Why you'd have two 4A fuses in series is beyond me.

Its a mistake. They wanted to have them in *parallel*.  >:D
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #671 on: January 04, 2019, 09:50:58 am »
Please don't intentionally misattribute quotes to people.   :--
I did not. You simply didn't comprehend what I said.  :--
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #672 on: January 04, 2019, 10:12:20 am »
the owners of Weller soldering irons now know that there's a safety issue.
No, they don't know. They are pretending. But feel free to point to actual safety issues, for which the device has been certified against.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #673 on: January 04, 2019, 10:31:36 am »
For the dozenth time now, and I'll keep saying it every time someone brings it up, if there is no potential issue then why does Weller have a primary fuse on almost all of their other (identical function) products?
Say it as many times as you like. It doesn't make it any more true that there's an issue with this stations OR all the other appliances out there without a fuse as you seem to suggest.
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #674 on: January 04, 2019, 10:52:06 am »
For the dozenth time now, and I'll keep saying it every time someone brings it up, if there is no potential issue then why does Weller have a primary fuse on almost all of their other (identical function) products?
Say it as many times as you like. It doesn't make it any more true that there's an issue with this stations OR all the other appliances out there without a fuse as you seem to suggest.
Dave, dont worry. Darwinism will take good care of these people.  >:D
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 10:53:57 am by Wolfgang »
 


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