Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 158287 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #625 on: January 03, 2019, 10:08:28 am »
How often do people crash cars? Are all those annoying harnesses and expensive safety devices really necessary?
How often do people crash cars into objects across the ocean? All we've seen here so far are very specific and fairly exceptional scenarios.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37626
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #626 on: January 03, 2019, 11:20:47 am »
How often do people crash cars? Are all those annoying harnesses and expensive safety devices really necessary?
How often do people crash cars into objects across the ocean? All we've seen here so far are very specific and fairly exceptional scenarios.

This thread is long enough, there is no need for a car safety tangent please.
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Fungus

Online Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2042
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #627 on: January 03, 2019, 11:54:46 am »
Weller decided to save on safety features

I think something was lost in the translation from Swedish. Let me correct your English for you.

This model doesn't include a particular feature that protects the iron from gross mis-use such as supplying twice the intended voltage.

Please don't intentionally misattribute quotes to people.   :--
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #628 on: January 03, 2019, 12:25:48 pm »
All we've seen here so far are very specific and fairly exceptional scenarios.

Scenarios that really happen.

(but this has already been pointed out a zillion times in this thread, you're just refusing to accept it).

Mitigation costs a few cents, there's no excuse on a device that costs over $100 that gets sold to engineers.

(and this has also been pointed out a zillion times, you're just refusing to accept it).

Flipped around: What valid excuse does Weller have for doing this when all common sense and engineering practice says it's a bad idea? How would anybody justify Weller not adding a fuse? Spell it out for us...

 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Richard Crowley, TheDane

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #629 on: January 03, 2019, 01:19:12 pm »
Scenarios that really happen.

(but this has already been pointed out a zillion times in this thread, you're just refusing to accept it).

Mitigation costs a few cents, there's no excuse on a device that costs over $100 that gets sold to engineers.

(and this has also been pointed out a zillion times, you're just refusing to accept it).

Flipped around: What valid excuse does Weller have for doing this when all common sense and engineering practice says it's a bad idea? How would anybody justify Weller not adding a fuse? Spell it out for us...
I don't know why people are liking your post, because nobody here is denying that they have happened. Let's not pretend that anyone here does. I'm just asking how often it does happen and whether that's enough to justify it. As far as I'm aware, nobody has been able to answer that in a meaningful way. How can you say it's necessary or justified if you can't quantify anything? Engineers should be the last people to indulge in measures for the sake of them.

Somehow there seems to be a communications breakdown. It shouldn't be that hard to quantify something which is reportedly glaringly obviously necessary, even though it's not required by law and not found in many devices, yet instead we get "common sense" and "industry standard" and other truisms. Not accepting a mantra is not arguing in favour of removing the fuse or defending Weller. It'd be good if people wouldn't pretend it is. If the size of the problem is demonstrated, it all becomes a lot more substantial.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 01:29:41 pm by Mr. Scram »
 
The following users thanked this post: timelessbeing

Offline glarsson

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 814
  • Country: se
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #630 on: January 03, 2019, 01:26:00 pm »
Weller decided to save on safety features

I think something was lost in the translation from Swedish. Let me correct your English for you.

This model doesn't include a particular feature that protects the iron from gross mis-use such as supplying twice the intended voltage.
You surely act like someone working as a Weller spin doctor. Furthermore, you are acting childish and dishonest when you fake quotes. I did not write anything of what you attributed to me.
There are other ways a 120V appliance can see overvoltage.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 01:49:30 pm by glarsson »
 
The following users thanked this post: Electro Detective

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #631 on: January 03, 2019, 02:08:01 pm »
I'm just asking how often it does happen and whether that's enough to justify it.

There's obviously not enough data for that, but there's been (I believe) three reports of it happening just in this thread.

If it's often enough to happen a widely followed blogger? That's when Weller should have had enough sense to admit they're Doing It Wrong.

They failed.

Completely.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #632 on: January 03, 2019, 02:40:02 pm »
There's obviously not enough data for that, but there's been (I believe) three reports of it happening just in this thread.

If it's often enough to happen a widely followed blogger? That's when Weller should have had enough sense to admit they're Doing It Wrong.

They failed.

Completely.
I think we can agree there's not enough data. Three cases with fairly exceptional circumstances on a forum filled with people doing unusual things with electronics doesn't sound like a very high rate. The fact that Dave is widely followed doesn't make for a more statistically significant incident, just a more publicised one. It's not a lot to go on if a company is going to be vehemently crucified. Again, I'd prefer Weller to make an actual statement about their deliberations but I doubt that's going to happen.
 

Offline drussell

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1855
  • Country: ca
  • Hardcore Geek
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #633 on: January 03, 2019, 03:32:34 pm »
That's when Weller should have had enough sense to admit they're Doing It Wrong.



Sorry, couldn't resist...  :)

Quote
They failed.

Completely.

Hyperbole much?   ;)
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #634 on: January 03, 2019, 04:07:28 pm »
I think we can agree there's not enough data. Three cases with fairly exceptional circumstances on a forum filled with people doing unusual things with electronics doesn't sound like a very high rate.

Does it have to be "very high" before you take any action?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #635 on: January 03, 2019, 04:21:05 pm »
Does it have to be "very high" before you take any action?
The counter question would be whether you take action when the impact may very well be marginal or nearly non-existent. Protecting against everything isn't possible, so the sensible approach is to ascertain what failure modes have the biggest impact and to protect against those.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #636 on: January 03, 2019, 04:27:34 pm »
Does it have to be "very high" before you take any action?
The counter question would be whether you take action when the impact may very well be marginal or nearly non-existent. Protecting against everything isn't possible, so the sensible approach is to ascertain what failure modes have the biggest impact and to protect against those.

"Impact" includes damage to your company reputation as well as damage that may be caused by your products.

A reputable company would at least do the things that:
a) Are very cheap to do
b) Their competitors are doing
c) The target demographic is very likely to notice
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #637 on: January 03, 2019, 04:53:42 pm »
"Impact" includes damage to your company reputation as well as damage that may be caused by your products.

A reputable company would at least do the things that:
a) Are very cheap to do
b) Their competitors are doing
c) The target demographic is very likely to notice
It being cheap is obviously no reason in itself. Not to mention it's not actually that cheap in a world where tenths of cents count. We've discussed before how the status quo and truisms are no actual reasons either. The last argument essentially is "because we're making it into an issue". First making a fuss and then pointing at damage supposedly caused by that fuss as a reason to act is inventing an argument. It could even be mistaken for the "I choose to be outraged by something, so you must act" fallacy which seems popular at the moment. It doesn't eliminate the burden of proof. You'll still need to address whether that fuss is valid, which has so far been proven to be rather tricky.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 04:56:25 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #638 on: January 03, 2019, 04:55:25 pm »
You'll still need to address whether that fuss is valid, which has so far been proven to be rather tricky.

a) Doesn't sound like you're trying to build a company, only count beans.
b) What's your opinion of this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/win-a-weller/

 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #639 on: January 03, 2019, 04:57:35 pm »
a) Doesn't sound like you're trying to build a company, only count beans.
b) What's your opinion of this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/win-a-weller/
I think it's a forum thread?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 05:02:02 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #640 on: January 03, 2019, 05:09:51 pm »
a) Doesn't sound like you're trying to build a company, only count beans.
b) What's your opinion of this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/win-a-weller/
I think it's a forum thread?

What precautions should you take if you give away a Weller (or even sell one on eBay)? Are you responsible for damages?

 

Offline boffin

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1027
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #641 on: January 03, 2019, 05:25:06 pm »
The bottom line is that Weller can't admit they've done something wrong (for potential liability reasons); I'm actually surprised that a lot of people here think that the response wouldn't have been pretty much exactly what it was.

But, they can certainly do something in the future, which also wouldn't surprise me at all.  Will be interesting to see if the model 18 months from now includes an external fuse, or thermal fuse in the transformer



 
The following users thanked this post: JXL, Mr. Scram

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #642 on: January 03, 2019, 06:23:38 pm »
What precautions should you take if you give away a Weller (or even sell one on eBay)? Are you responsible for damages?
You'd have to ask a lawyer who knows about your local law about the degree of responsibility you have when giving away an item.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #643 on: January 03, 2019, 06:56:55 pm »
What precautions should you take if you give away a Weller (or even sell one on eBay)? Are you responsible for damages?
You'd have to ask a lawyer who knows about your local law about the degree of responsibility you have when giving away an item.

OK, question: As a CEO, are you happy owning a company where people feel they ought top consult a lawyer before they can give away one of your products?

Read that contest thread again (the one where you apparently see nothing special): Somebody is trying to give away a Weller soldering iron and the comments are, "delivered with a cardboard box that can be used to contain the smoke" and "Shame it won't arrive at the winners door in time for New Year Eve, so they miss out of their own personal fireworks display."

This is now Weller's reputation.

All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

If you think that's money well saved then I wouldn't want you in marketing any of my products.

Goodbye!
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Wolfgang, TheDane

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #644 on: January 03, 2019, 07:24:26 pm »
OK, question: As a CEO, are you happy owning a company where people feel they ought top consult a lawyer before they can give away one of your products?

Read that contest thread again (the one where you apparently see nothing special): Somebody is trying to give away a Weller soldering iron and the comments are, "delivered with a cardboard box that can be used to contain the smoke" and "Shame it won't arrive at the winners door in time for New Year Eve, so they miss out of their own personal fireworks display."

This is now Weller's reputation.

All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

If you think that's money well saved then I wouldn't want you in marketing any of my products.

Goodbye!
Don't mince my words. You specifically asked me about liability when giving away a product, and I said you'd need to consult a lawyer about your local laws about liability when giving away a product. Any product.

The people who responded in that thread are mostly the same handful of people who have expressed their opinion in this thread. They've seem to taken Dave's cue, but haven't contributed any facts which show worrisome qualities. They simply chimed in. If that's an example of the scale of the rather manufactured outrage, Weller has nothing to worry about. More importantly, outrage isn't evidence or proof. Outrage is an opinion. People or whole groups are continually outraged at all kinds of things. Without proper reasons for that outrage it means nothing. It doesn't grant you special rights or treatment and it doesn't eliminate the need for proving there's actually a quantifiable issue. I'll quote Stephen Fry, and substitute : offended" for "outraged" wherever appropriate. "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

I really don't appreciate being railroaded onto Weller's side. Let's stop fishing, baiting and framing and get back on topic.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:39:39 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Online Ian.M

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12753
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #645 on: January 03, 2019, 07:28:37 pm »
Its the combo of bodged in secondary side fusing and no primary side fusing that doesn't inspire confidence.  The secondary side polyfuse positioned where the transformer can heat it is IMHO legitimate to reduce the risk of cooking the transformer as line voltage polyfuses aren't cheap or common, but why in the nine billion names of god is the extra ordinary fuse on the secondary side not the primary side?
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1772
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #646 on: January 03, 2019, 07:39:31 pm »
OK, question: As a CEO, are you happy owning a company where people feel they ought top consult a lawyer before they can give away one of your products?

Read that contest thread again (the one where you apparently see nothing special): Somebody is trying to give away a Weller soldering iron and the comments are, "delivered with a cardboard box that can be used to contain the smoke" and "Shame it won't arrive at the winners door in time for New Year Eve, so they miss out of their own personal fireworks display."

This is now Weller's reputation.

All for the sake of a few cents in the BOM of a product which is being promoted using $100,000 stands at large trade fairs (alongside competitors who've seen Dave's video and will happily tell their clients about it).

If you think that's money well saved then I wouldn't want you in marketing any of my products.

Goodbye!
Don't mince my words. You specifically asked me about liability when giving away a product, and I said you'd need to consult a lawyer about your local laws about liability when giving away a product. Any product.

The people who responded in that thread are mostly the same handful of people who have expressed their opinion in this thread. They've seem to taken Dave's cue, but haven't contributed any facts which show worrisome qualities. They simply chimed in. If that's an example of the scale of the rather manufactured outrage, Weller has nothing to worry about. More importantly, outrage isn't evidence or proof. Outrage is an opinion. It doesn't grant you special rights or treatment and it doesn't eliminate the need for proving there's actually a quantifiable issue. I'll quote Stephen Fry, and substitute : offended" for "outraged" wherever appropriate. "It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

I really don't appreciate being railroaded onto Weller's side. Let's stop fishing, baiting and framing and get back on topic.

Pure demagogics. Of course there are *lot* of products that you can give away without even thinking of asking your lawyer first.

As opposed to your cited Stephen Fry the Weller issue *has* a meaning and a purpose. The meaning is that cutting safety corners is a bad thing, and the purpose is to make Weller stop this practice.

I think your are perfectly in line with spin doctoring. But you have an harsh enemy : common sense.
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean, Fungus

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #647 on: January 03, 2019, 07:56:51 pm »
Pure demagogics. Of course there are *lot* of products that you can give away without even thinking of asking your lawyer first.

As opposed to your cited Stephen Fry the Weller issue *has* a meaning and a purpose. The meaning is that cutting safety corners is a bad thing, and the purpose is to make Weller stop this practice.

I think your are perfectly in line with spin doctoring. But you have an harsh enemy : common sense.
The only sensible answer when people are asking for legal advice on the internet from an unknown place is "go see a local lawyer". Just like the only sensible answer to questions about a medical condition is "go see a doctor". Fungus asked about liability. He should ask a lawyer what trouble he may or may not get himself in when he gives away a product. That all has nothing to do with Weller in particular and attempting to spin it as such is just tiring.

Common sense tells us that something which is apparently so blatantly bad should be easy to prove, but no real quantifiable evidence has been brought forward. Considering this has been going on for many pages now, you have to wonder why this evidence is consistently absent. That there is no real issue seems ever more likely. Angrily disagreeing doesn't change that. Providing something tangible does.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16531
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #648 on: January 03, 2019, 08:23:05 pm »
The only sensible answer when people are asking for legal advice on the internet from an unknown place is "go see a local lawyer". Just like the only sensible answer to questions about a medical condition is "go see a doctor". Fungus asked about liability. He should ask a lawyer what trouble he may or may not get himself in when he gives away a product. That all has nothing to do with Weller in particular and attempting to spin it as such is just tiring.

Nope.

The problem is that post-Dave's-video, the owners of Weller soldering irons now know that there's a safety issue. If they have any sort of a conscience then they have to be a lot more careful about selling/giving them to random strangers.

It's not just a simple case of them not working when they arrive after a mixup, it's about them going up in smoke within seconds of being plugged in.

Would you still sell them on eBay, knowing what happens?
 
The following users thanked this post: Wolfgang, floobydust

Offline Electro Detective

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2715
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #649 on: January 03, 2019, 10:33:47 pm »
I would like to suggest that DJ reconsider, and take up Weller marketing on their offer of a complimentary Weller station,
but.. insist it be the same 120 volt model.

Fuse the sucker up appropriately so it runs ok on 120v,
but fuse pops on 240v ...minus billowing mushroom clouds   

Post it on Youtube, title it... "Weller Smoke Machine: Round 2"  :box: or similar, and send Weller the URL.

They might snap out of their backslapping 'we can't do wrong' corporate mind cage,
make some phone calls to wherever/whoever really makes their gear,

and rattle out some coins from the XMAS 2019 piggy bank fund,
for a bulk order of fuse holders, fuses, thermal cutouts, some rolls of solder,

and implement -FUSED- Weller soldering station models (or Hakko if cheaper  >:D )  on the assembly line,
to avoid delays due to possible fires and or smoke 

Penny Pinching TIP:  The marketing department can be commissioned to do the work instead of scripting excuses
and get some actual hands on experience with the products they flog market   :clap:


 (( ;D ))

« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 10:47:23 pm by Electro Detective »
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB, TheDane


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf