Author Topic: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds  (Read 52723 times)

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Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #750 on: January 05, 2019, 04:23:19 am »
The ultimate combination of severe user error, electrical naivety and distressingly cheap design:

Actually, I am quite impressed with the design. It successfully worked on 240 V without blowing the indicator lamps, burning out the elements or melting the plastic case. Also, when it caught fire it was only the toast and cheese that was burning after being incinerated. The toaster itself seemed OK.

It honestly did way better than I thought it would.

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I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Online Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #751 on: January 05, 2019, 05:05:28 am »

DJ might wanna think about pulling out the mini Weller Welder trannie from the    [-Bin Of UnFused Shame- ]

and get some toasted cheese snacks going, in between Youtube vids

The taste may not be quite MKR standard, but at least the lab won't have to be left unattended whilst any Weller stations are running 
and no one goes hungry.

The New Weller Lab Barbie;D
 
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Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #752 on: January 05, 2019, 05:33:04 am »
Yeah and plug in a few more 120V or Chinese appliances, and make a magic smoker box. Mmm mm.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #753 on: January 05, 2019, 05:45:12 am »
Oops...  I forgot to include bigclive's appropriate response to the 120->240V mishap video above:



Classic Clive...  :)

Actually, BigClive is wrong. The primary saturated and ran well beyond 4 times normal power dissipation, and then likely went into accelerated melt down as the enamel was burnt off and the primary turns shorted.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #754 on: January 05, 2019, 05:50:45 am »
Do you have an explanation other than "bean counting"?

Do you have any evidence that there have been any failures that resulted in any property damage due to, for example, one of these units bursting into flames and burning down someone's house, lab, place of business, etc?  Has anyone been zapped into a permanent coma by such device?  These are the things that the standards, regulations, etc. are meant to influence...

Then why do Weller bother to fit fuses to most of their other products in the same functional category?
If there is any argument here at all, this is it.
Again, Weller are allowed to sell a (certified) product without a mains fuse, that's not an issue, but why do some of them have a fuse and some don't?
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #755 on: January 05, 2019, 05:53:27 am »
... not if they have a primary fuse. Primary fuses also protect from user errors. Weller - not very forgiving.  >:D
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #756 on: January 05, 2019, 05:54:31 am »
you cannot guarantee the safety of a transformer that was smoking it's enamel.
Why not?

Because the enamel melts and the turns short out, and this likely happens in a progressive accelerated fashion, effectively feeding on itself in a thermal runaway of sorts.
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #757 on: January 05, 2019, 05:56:54 am »
Dave, would you be availabe for a test where a Weller unit is *not* removed from mains after it started smoking ?
Some Weller fanboys here say that there is no safety issue because no open flames occurred.
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #758 on: January 05, 2019, 06:17:01 am »
Actually, BigClive is wrong. The primary saturated.
I've never seen a toaster with a transformer in it. Is that a thing?
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #759 on: January 05, 2019, 06:21:48 am »
Because the enamel melts and the turns short out, and this likely happens in a progressive accelerated fashion, effectively feeding on itself in a thermal runaway of sorts.
... until it goes open circuit. Right?
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #760 on: January 05, 2019, 06:23:29 am »
Some Weller fanboys
Who? I think Wellers are ugly.  ;D
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #761 on: January 05, 2019, 06:26:04 am »
... if you insist, *ugly* fanboys.  :)
 

Online IanB

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #762 on: January 05, 2019, 06:51:14 am »
Oops...  I forgot to include bigclive's appropriate response to the 120->240V mishap video above:



Classic Clive...  :)

Actually, BigClive is wrong. The primary saturated and ran well beyond 4 times normal power dissipation, and then likely went into accelerated melt down as the enamel was burnt off and the primary turns shorted.

The comment is about the toaster, not the soldering station. 120 V --> 240 V on heating elements ==> 4x the power.

Instead of glowing a dull red like normal, the heating elements lit up brightly like a bulb. The toaster was glowing like crazy.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #763 on: January 05, 2019, 07:46:40 am »
Another would be to add a primary fuse and to see whether that protects the unit completely from 230V.

Of course it would.  :palm:

People seem to think I'm arguing one way or the other. I'm not. I'm seeing claims being made about the station being dangerous without a fuse.

At least one of them went up in smoke without it.

Wouldn't you at least want to know it won't do that?
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #764 on: January 05, 2019, 08:14:58 am »
Wouldn't you at least want to know it won't do that?
It's easy enough to ensure by not taking it to another country.  :horse:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #765 on: January 05, 2019, 08:25:02 am »
Wouldn't you at least want to know it won't do that?
It's easy enough to ensure by not taking it to another country.  :horse:

We know of at least one that went up in smoke.  :horse:

And we know about mains surges in your country.  :horse:

And you can avoid having to wear a seat belt by simply driving carefully....  :horse:
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 08:27:11 am by Fungus »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #766 on: January 05, 2019, 08:25:29 am »
Appliances I have seen or repaired that do not have a primary fuse - only light fixtures and 1960's car battery chargers, vintage tube radios.

Possibly a few old wall warts, although I'm not sure as I didn't unwind the transformer looking for a thermal fuse. Even in the 1980's there were thermal fuses in consumer electronics (small tranformers). I used to repair clock radios, ghetto blasters, stereos, TV's etc. in a shop, not casual numbers.

In low <~20VA transformers, fine primary copper wire does end up being a fuse at the bobbin lead-in. I have seen two melt there, say smaller than #28 AWG. Inductance leading to an arc in the bobbin, can't be a good idea with this method. It's odd the UL standard does not allow it but the IEC standard seems to:

IEC 61558-1; 15.3.5 intentional weak part. "may be an... inaccessible weak point in a winding."

UL 1585; 18.2 "Crossed or reduced cross-section conductors shall not be used as a protective device. A nicked conductor is a form of reduced cross-section conductor."
 

Online Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #767 on: January 05, 2019, 08:44:31 am »

...And we know about mains surges in your country.  :horse:



It may have been asked before but just where is 'that' country ?  :-//

seeing as Weller Fellas timelessbeing and Mr. Scram  are from Country: 00 or is it Country: OO ?
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #768 on: January 05, 2019, 08:47:22 am »
And we know about mains surges in your country.  :horse:
Feel free to show us a case where a mains surge caused it to "go up in smoke".


And you can avoid having to wear a seat belt by simply driving carefully....  :horse:
The alternative to not wearing a seatbelt is death. You're not very good at this analogy game are you? The fuse is more like wearing a helmet to walk your dog.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 08:53:29 am by timelessbeing »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #769 on: January 05, 2019, 09:30:23 am »
And we know about mains surges in your country.  :horse:
Feel free to show us a case where a mains surge caused it to "go up in smoke".

LMGTFY.

Looks like this thread's over. All that's left is trolls and people who refuse to see common sense.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 09:32:40 am by Fungus »
 
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Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #770 on: January 05, 2019, 09:42:59 am »
 :palm: For this iron.

Looks like this thread's over. All that's left is ... people who refuse to see common sense.
I completely agree.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 09:44:43 am by timelessbeing »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #771 on: January 05, 2019, 10:08:17 am »
:palm: For this iron.

Looks like this thread's over. All that's left is ... people who refuse to see common sense.
I completely agree.

Given a free choice: Wouldn't you prefer to have a fuse on the back?

Me? I don't think it's a lot to ask in a $100+ tool.

(or do you really think it would make soldering more awkward and uncomfortable?)
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #772 on: January 05, 2019, 10:11:36 am »
Oops...  I forgot to include bigclive's appropriate response to the 120->240V mishap video above:



Classic Clive...  :)

Actually, BigClive is wrong. The primary saturated and ran well beyond 4 times normal power dissipation, and then likely went into accelerated melt down as the enamel was burnt off and the primary turns shorted.

That particular comment was in regards to the toaster video, not your Weller video(s).  I should have been more clear.

The point is that 120V appliances and devices are often not designed in such a was as to fail completely silently and smoke-free when plugged into 240V.  It is simply not something that is generally considered an important factor and is normally deemed to be an infrequent enough probability of occuring that things like the enclosure containing most of the mayhem is considered enough in standard design.

Things like inverter/chargers are far more of a problem, where things like sparks and burning material are almost certain to spew out upon a semiconductor failure (almost always a short) given the thousands and thousands of amps available, especially on the DC side, even with protective fuses and/or circuit breakers fitted in the DC battery lead.  You're specifically supposed to take care to install it in such a way and pay attention to the surrounding materials below, etc. to limit the chances of combustion when a failure occurs and the molten material fountain blasts burning stuff all over your inverter closet.  :)

Does anyone have a copy of that Motorola modem ad from the 80s/early 90s where they show the unit that UL flame tested the chassis on?  I'll have to dig up a copy.  :)

I really don't appreciate being railroaded onto Weller's side. Let's stop fishing, baiting and framing and get back on topic.

Neither do I, especially this "if you don't agree that a fuse must be mandatory in every case, you must be a corporate apologist or paid shill." nonsense.
 
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Online timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #773 on: January 05, 2019, 10:18:08 am »
Wouldn't you prefer to have a fuse on the back?
Since you're offering it to me for free, then of course I'll take it. But since it would just sit on my bench, plugged into a 120V socket, it wouldn't make any difference. If it's a choice between irons, then I would focus on more important things. The Weller takes way too much space for example.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 10:20:42 am by timelessbeing »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: EEVblog #1160 - Weller Responds
« Reply #774 on: January 05, 2019, 10:27:10 am »
Given a free choice: Wouldn't you prefer to have a fuse on the back?

I don't think anyone is saying that they don't think it should have a fuse, just refuting the idea that not having a fuse on something is automatically a complete fail.  There is a wide chasm between those ends of the spectrum. 
 


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