Author Topic: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire  (Read 6167 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2018, 08:42:34 pm »
Arc-Fault circuit breakers are required on nearly all residential circuits nationally across the USA for all new residential construction and any added or altered circuits in existing homes. IIRC the way the code is written they are mandated for all "outlets" but the definition of "outlet" covers not only receptacles but also light fixtures so effectively they are required on all 120V branch circuits.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2019, 05:32:08 pm »
 I refuse to use those backstab connections when replacing outlets. Hate those with a passion, and thee's actually a good reason to. I haven't come across those Wago connectors yet in any residential wiring, the last light fixtures I replaced in my house all used wire nuts. I have encountered a variation on the backstab connection - it wasn't a self-gripping thing, it was simply an alternative way to insert the wire to be held in place by the screw on the side, which clamped down on the wire with as much metal in contact as you get when wrapping the wire around the screw. Sad that it has to come to this, but it seems too many people haven't a clue as to which way to wrap the wire around the screw.
 When replacing failed outlets in my house (usually the cheap ass stuff used in the original construction fails to hold the plugs as the contacts lose tension, or in a couple of case, the whole plastic cracked off - seriously I wonder what some people do with their corded appliances), I NEVER use the cheap bulk packages, I always get the higher grade ones, they cost more but are far more robust. And if it's work I'm having someone else do, I specify those type, not the cheap contractor grade garbage. Or I'll buy the things rather than have the contractor get them, so I know they are using the good stuff. This is a far bigger problem than the type of plug or the voltages used or whatever - the hardware comes in all levels of quality from "you're really trying to burn your house down, aren't you?" to "Hit this with a sledge hammer and it still maintains integrity and protection from shocks". It's all a matter of how much you are willing to pay, like most anything else.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2019, 07:50:47 pm »
I replaced every receptacle in my house after I bought the place. Quite a few of them were so loose the plugs would fall out with the slightest tug, and a wall wart type plug would just fall out under its own weight. A couple of them were actually falling apart, the whole plastic face fell off when I removed the cover plate. Spec grade receptacles are only about $2.50 each, sure they cost more than the 99c residential grade stuff but even for a large house you're talking maybe a couple hundred bucks max. I have a hard time understanding why someone would build a $500k house and then cheap out on a couple hundred bucks that would considerably reduce the chance of their house burning down or requiring expensive repairs later. Calling an electrician once to replace a faulty receptacle is going to eat all the savings and then some.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2019, 07:13:15 pm »
The issues you all seem to have with spring terminals are all down to yours being cheap, nasty ones, not the type of terminal.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2019, 10:25:04 pm »
That's irrelevant, the spring terminals are all cheap and nasty, that doesn't mean it's not possible to make good spring terminals but absolutely none of the backstab terminals are well made. The screw terminals on the other hand are generally good, it's harder to screw that up. Given the simplicity of a screw, I don't see much reason to reinvent the wheel.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2019, 10:43:28 pm »
That's irrelevant, the spring terminals are all cheap and nasty, that doesn't mean it's not possible to make good spring terminals but absolutely none of the backstab terminals are well made. The screw terminals on the other hand are generally good, it's harder to screw that up. Given the simplicity of a screw, I don't see much reason to reinvent the wheel.

It's not irrelevant when you're bad-mouthing the decent ones (Wago) in the same sentences.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2019, 10:47:27 pm »
The Wago spring-clamps are excellent, I've used bigger ones on terminal blocks up to 50A, albeit with stranded wire- not solid wire.

They are not popular in North America aside from use in locomotives because they stay tight with high vibration and temperature swings in railroad apps.

Duplex outlets are crap with the back-stab and solid wire. Many melt downs keeping electricians making money. It's just a single leaf making contact and the spring fatigues with age.
 

Offline richnormand

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2019, 10:56:30 pm »
Every time I had a hot electrical socket it was one of these back-stab crap. Replaced with a proper loop and screw type and no issues.
Are the back-stab still legal? Can't imagine when used with Al wiring....

I have Wago connectors that I use in the electronics shop but always wondered if they are legal to use in house wiring instead of the twist-on Marr connectors (that do seem to work fine BTW)?

 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2019, 12:30:37 am »

It's not irrelevant when you're bad-mouthing the decent ones (Wago) in the same sentences.

I'm bad mouthing them because I've personally dealt with them (or clones, I don't really know). I've had wires pull out several times, recently had to do some troubleshooting at a friend's house because several lights had stopped working after the electricians finished. I found those silly push in splices all over, a couple of wires had fallen out and were the source of his problem. I replaced every one I encountered with a proper wire nut and no more problems. Maybe they're fine for low current control stuff by why they're legal for line voltage I don't know. They're only marginally easier to install and they're much less secure than a proper joint. The contact area is miniscule, and I know from numerous experiences with the back-stab type on receptacles that over time oxidation tends to creep in causing localized heating which causes the springy metal to soften and lose its grip resulting in more heat. I've encountered at least 3 melted down receptacles due to that problem and I'm not even an electrician by trade, I can only imagine how many instances occur in the wild. A proper connection should have a significant surface area and a tight mechanical joint. Screw terminals and wire nuts both meet that criteria, I've never seen either one fail except in a couple of outdoor things where the junction box filled with water.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2019, 12:41:59 am »

It's not irrelevant when you're bad-mouthing the decent ones (Wago) in the same sentences.

I'm bad mouthing them because I've personally dealt with them (or clones, I don't really know).

Hmm, me too.

Quote
I've had wires pull out several times, recently had to do some troubleshooting at a friend's house because several lights had stopped working after the electricians finished. I found those silly push in splices all over, a couple of wires had fallen out and were the source of his problem. I replaced every one I encountered with a proper wire nut and no more problems.

Have you tested the pull-out force on them? It's.. impressive. Conductors do not just 'fall out' of the real deal.

Quote
The contact area is miniscule

Both the contact area and the current bar are greater than the conductor CSA, try again.

Quote
and I know from numerous experiences with the back-stab type on receptacles that over time oxidation tends to creep in

They are gas tight...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2019, 12:50:09 am »
Both the contact area and the current bar are greater than the conductor CSA, try again.

Quote
and I know from numerous experiences with the back-stab type on receptacles that over time oxidation tends to creep in

They are gas tight...


No, they're not, not the kind that come with residential electrical fittings here. The back-stab terminals on US electrical fittings are universally trash. The Wago type connectors that come with US domestic light fixtures are (to the extent I have experienced) universally trash. Gas-tight push in terminals with good contact area may exist but you won't find them packaged with domestic electrical fittings so in the context of situations where AFCI breakers are used (USA residential), these connectors don't exist. The push-in type that are ubiquitous are junk.

They may not be manufactured by Wago, that term is a bit of a colloquialism like Kleenex or Hoover.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #1164 - Xbox Baptism Of Fire
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2019, 12:54:34 am »
Both the contact area and the current bar are greater than the conductor CSA, try again.

Quote
and I know from numerous experiences with the back-stab type on receptacles that over time oxidation tends to creep in

They are gas tight...


No, they're not, not the kind that come with residential electrical fittings here. The back-stab terminals on US electrical fittings are universally trash. The Wago type connectors that come with US domestic light fixtures are (to the extent I have experienced) universally trash. Gas-tight push in terminals with good contact area may exist but you won't find them packaged with domestic electrical fittings so in the context of situations where AFCI breakers are used (USA residential), these connectors don't exist. The push-in type that are ubiquitous are junk.

They may not be manufactured by Wago, that term is a bit of a colloquialism like Kleenex or Hoover.

So you haven't personally used the proper type but you're still bad mouthing them using your experiences with trash.
 


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