EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!

[EEVblog]

Busting the SOLUS Kickstarter - "The Most Efficient Radiator In The World" based on "completely new, eco-friendly and graphene-based technology"
"Save over 80% on your next heating utility bill"!

TLDR; It's a crazy expensive 200W - 300W glass panel heater with magic woo-woo graphene paste that does not produce any more heat than any other equivalent wattage panel radiator heater.

Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/koleda/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world/

Xefro graphene heater scam: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/freeze-put-on-scam-heating-system-company

[Brumby]

Why the number 8 appears so much in these sorts of products..?

Probably to make them more appealing to the Chinese (and similarly minded individuals) - who just love the number 8.

It has all the engineering validity of good luck and good fortune!


Edit: You could improve the radiant efficiency for your oil heater - paint it matt black.

[Brumby]

So.....

In one of their own tests, a 300W panel consumed 440 watts ... hmmm.  Question: In that case where did the excess 140 watts go?

Bueller....

Bueller....


(Please don't say "heat" .... there are too many people rolling on the floor as it is.)

[johnlsenchak]

I've  read a lot on how  Graphene  is  suppose  to  replace  silicone  in transistors  to make them smaller and  more  heat efficient  in the manufacture of LSI  circuits like Intel  processors    with  transistors   less  10 manometers   in  size.  This  would  make  more  sense to  me than using  Graphene  to heat a room

[ealex]

They just invented something that we can already buy here ( eastern europe ) since 2010 - at least that's when I heard about it.
Something like http://caldura-ieftina.ro/plasma-termica/ (Registered On: 2011-11-26) for example - 300 euro for a 300W panel
The website is called "cheap heat" and they are selling it as a "thermal plasma panel" ...

It's the same "made in china" thing with a new marketing spin and a different sticker on the front panel.
They forgot to add Tesla in the story - how could the miss him ?

[Dr. Frank]

Sorry Dave, your debunking went in the wrong direction.

This SOLUS device is NOT a convection heater, it does not emit heat directly (only to a lesser degree).

Instead it is just another Infrared Light emitter. IR light will create heat only in the single bodies which receive this IR light, but will heat up the room only indirectly and partially.

Therefore, one can't compare IR directly with convection heating, especially not in terms of efficiency.
That's the core statement to debunk, and the scientifically bad temperature measurement / comparison they did.

Also, it seems to be utter bullshit, why and how Graphene should be a better IR emitter than all these other IR heaters already on the market.

It's quite well explained on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_heater, that these IR emitters are more 'efficient' in certain applications only, like cooking Döner Kebab. 

[golden_labels]

By the way. 200–300W is approximately what 2–3 people produce just by being in the room. Invite some friends: they not only produce heat, but also deliver a fair amount of fun! They will not oxidize in 20 years too.

[Brumby]

They will not oxidize in 20 years too.

Wanna bet!

[www2]

A example of a product design by marketing™.

[EEVblog]

This SOLUS device is NOT a convection heater, it does not emit heat directly (only to a lesser degree).

There will be natural convection due to the heat ultimately rising. And they claim is also does convection.

Our unique heating technology works with both traditional convection based heating as well as infra-red heating, meaning that each SOLUS unit can heat a 15m2 space with up to 20x less power usage.

 But it is not an internal circulation convection heater because the air cannot circulate around the element. It is essentially the same as an oil radiator in terms of convection but in a different form factor. Yes it will have some (a lot of?) IR, but ultimately that doesn't matter. It is certainly not a pure IR radiator.

Instead it is just another Infrared Light emitter. IR light will create heat only in the single bodies which receive this IR light, but will heat up the room only indirectly and partially.
Therefore, one can't compare IR directly with convection heating, especially not in terms of efficiency.
That's the core statement to debunk, and the scientifically bad temperature measurement / comparison they did.

Yes, and that's the entire point, and that's what I basically did.
To increase the temperature in a room you need to input more BTU's than are being lost to the outside, simple as that, it doesn't matter what type of heat transfer it is.
A $500 200W woo-woo graphene heater outputs the same BTU's as a 200W $15 K-Mart special.

I think I need to do another whiteboard video about space heating.

[EEVblog]

And we have a response!

They seem to be claiming the graphene magically produces heat during the off-cycle!

It is also clear that EEVblog has no response besides crude gestures to this statement “we have found that raising the temperature of our heating element is most effective through supply of non constant/pulsed electric current. It works in the following way, the heating element is supplied with 1.5 seconds of electric current and is then cut off from supply for another 1.5 seconds. This process is repeated until the heater reaches it’s maximum temperature. We observed that during the off cycle (1.5 seconds when current is cut off) the heating element continues to generate heat due to the self cooling properties of graphene, which results in a difference of potentials.”

As for sending review units to tech journalists 
None of them would have the skills, time, motivation, or resources to properly test this. Even I would have a hard time doing it and it would take a long time to conduct proper tests.

[nctnico]

And we have a response!

They seem to be claiming the graphene magically produces heat during the off-cycle!

It is also clear that EEVblog has no response besides crude gestures to this statement “we have found that raising the temperature of our heating element is most effective through supply of non constant/pulsed electric current. It works in the following way, the heating element is supplied with 1.5 seconds of electric current and is then cut off from supply for another 1.5 seconds. This process is repeated until the heater reaches it’s maximum temperature. We observed that during the off cycle (1.5 seconds when current is cut off) the heating element continues to generate heat due to the self cooling properties of graphene, which results in a difference of potentials.”

I think this guy should ask his money back from the school he went to. It seems they skipped basic physics. 

[EEVblog]

Hmm, in a bit of bind over this one.
I realise it was a poor overly long video and I didn't explain some things well. But I don't want to pull it and redo it because there are so many comments already, but I won't be able to do it until Monday some time, and I want to keep the video up so people know about this dodgy Kickstarter.
So I guess it just has to stay... 

In any case I plan on doing a proper tutorial video hopefully on Monday on space (room) heating and the types of heaters and uses and losses etc as that seems very timely. But not sure if I should keep that as a strict tutorial, or also include some kind of follow-up comments as well?

[HalFET]

I've  read a lot on how  Graphene  is  suppose  to  replace  silicone  in transistors  to make them smaller and  more  heat efficient  in the manufacture of LSI  circuits like Intel  processors    with  transistors   less  10 manometers   in  size.  This  would  make  more  sense to  me than using  Graphene  to heat a room

Graphene is the buzz word to get research funding, that's the magic behind it. Others that (used to) work: carbon nanotubes, bucky balls, 2D materials, perovskite, nano pillars, ...  Graphene has some interesting properties, but it's honestly not worth the effort to bother with in most cases. The interesting properties require a perfect crystalline structure spanning large surface areas. And a single layer of atoms ain't exactly the strongest thing in the world, so it's quite sensitive to the conditions it's used in. And applying protective layers also causes issues. That being said, I need some quick money. I am going to coat steaks in nano-graphene (aka, I'll put them in a smoker) and sell them as nanotechnology steaks. Please sponsor me on kickstarter! 

Also, wouldn't tempered glass (which is most of the thermal mass of this thing) be horrible as heat reservoir? Meaning you'd actually have to leave it on. Water, stone and oil radiators can last for hours after turning them off...

[tszaboo]

This SOLUS device is NOT a convection heater, it does not emit heat directly (only to a lesser degree).

There will be natural convection due to the heat ultimately rising. And they claim is also does convection.

Please look up infrared heating panels. It is not about the BTUs, it is about the comfort. A room with convection heating is comfortable at around 22 Celsius. While the sun is shining, you can be outside ins shorts in 15 degrees, because the sun directly heats you with IR. There are many restaurants here, where people eat outside in the snow, because there is an IR heater.

It is not magic, but most of the heat is not emitted as BTU, but infrared, which doesn't heat the air, instead it bounces around in the room, and heats the objects and you. The radiator is not the same, as the regular heaters operate at around 60-70 degrees, and emit most energy as BTU, while IR heater operates at higher temperature.

It is not going to be 95% better. But it works, it is installed at my parents, I've been to hotels that only had this heating. The glass doesnt matter, because it is just translucent to IR.

It is not going to produce more heat. It makes the room comfortable with less energy. Maybe it reduces losses.
And it is not an excuse for all the bullshit they rack up.

[EEVblog]

Also, wouldn't tempered glass (which is most of the thermal mass of this thing) be horrible as heat reservoir?

I would imagine so.

[voltsandjolts]

I recently bought a car with heated seats - OMG, they are fantastic.

I think all sofa's should also be heated seats, much more efficient than heating the whole room. There you go SOLUS, you can have that idea for free... and it works.

[EEVblog]

Please look up infrared heating panels. It is not about the BTUs, it is about the comfort. A room with convection heating is comfortable at around 22 Celsius. While the sun is shining, you can be outside ins shorts in 15 degrees, because the sun directly heats you with IR. There are many restaurants here, where people eat outside in the snow, because there is an IR heater.

It is not magic, but most of the heat is not emitted as BTU, but infrared, which doesn't heat the air, instead it bounces around in the room, and heats the objects and you. The radiator is not the same, as the regular heaters operate at around 60-70 degrees, and emit most energy as BTU, while IR heater operates at higher temperature.

This one operates at 100 degC internally and cycles of to 48degC.
Yes, they are producing IR, but how much we don't know. They claim it's both IR and convective based.

Our unique heating technology works with both traditional convection based heating as well as infra-red heating, meaning that each SOLUS unit can heat a 15m2 space with up to 20x less power usage.

It is not going to be 95% better. But it works, it is installed at my parents, I've been to hotels that only had this heating. The glass doesnt matter, because it is just translucent to IR.
It is not going to produce more heat. It makes the room comfortable with less energy. Maybe it reduces losses.
And it is not an excuse for all the bullshit they rack up.

The problem is there own big test focuses on heating a room by a given temperature, to do that requires more BTU's to input than are being lost outside the room. With 200W - 300W equivalent in BTU's, that's bugger-all.

[EEVblog]

There own tests show this isn't the case, it's much more than their rated claim

[EEVblog]

Oh, we didn't think of that! 

[EEVblog]

Translation: We spent years developing this and didn't bother to do a proper room test, but we'll do that now during the Kickstarter! 

[EEVblog]

Documenting 
(This person pulled their pledge)

[EEVblog]

They replied to everyone else, except this guy 

[EEVblog]

And no reply to this troublemaker

[EEVblog]

Oh boy, the comments are great!



and they replied