EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!

[EEVblog]

Busting the SOLUS Kickstarter - "The Most Efficient Radiator In The World" based on "completely new, eco-friendly and graphene-based technology"
"Save over 80% on your next heating utility bill"!

TLDR; It's a crazy expensive 200W - 300W glass panel heater with magic woo-woo graphene paste that does not produce any more heat than any other equivalent wattage panel radiator heater.

Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/koleda/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world/

Xefro graphene heater scam: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/freeze-put-on-scam-heating-system-company

[Brumby]

Why the number 8 appears so much in these sorts of products..?

Probably to make them more appealing to the Chinese (and similarly minded individuals) - who just love the number 8.

It has all the engineering validity of good luck and good fortune!


Edit: You could improve the radiant efficiency for your oil heater - paint it matt black.

[Brumby]

So.....

In one of their own tests, a 300W panel consumed 440 watts ... hmmm.  Question: In that case where did the excess 140 watts go?

Bueller....

Bueller....


(Please don't say "heat" .... there are too many people rolling on the floor as it is.)

[johnlsenchak]

I've  read a lot on how  Graphene  is  suppose  to  replace  silicone  in transistors  to make them smaller and  more  heat efficient  in the manufacture of LSI  circuits like Intel  processors    with  transistors   less  10 manometers   in  size.  This  would  make  more  sense to  me than using  Graphene  to heat a room

[ealex]

They just invented something that we can already buy here ( eastern europe ) since 2010 - at least that's when I heard about it.
Something like http://caldura-ieftina.ro/plasma-termica/ (Registered On: 2011-11-26) for example - 300 euro for a 300W panel
The website is called "cheap heat" and they are selling it as a "thermal plasma panel" ...

It's the same "made in china" thing with a new marketing spin and a different sticker on the front panel.
They forgot to add Tesla in the story - how could the miss him ?

[Dr. Frank]

Sorry Dave, your debunking went in the wrong direction.

This SOLUS device is NOT a convection heater, it does not emit heat directly (only to a lesser degree).

Instead it is just another Infrared Light emitter. IR light will create heat only in the single bodies which receive this IR light, but will heat up the room only indirectly and partially.

Therefore, one can't compare IR directly with convection heating, especially not in terms of efficiency.
That's the core statement to debunk, and the scientifically bad temperature measurement / comparison they did.

Also, it seems to be utter bullshit, why and how Graphene should be a better IR emitter than all these other IR heaters already on the market.

It's quite well explained on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_heater, that these IR emitters are more 'efficient' in certain applications only, like cooking Döner Kebab. 

[golden_labels]

By the way. 200–300W is approximately what 2–3 people produce just by being in the room. Invite some friends: they not only produce heat, but also deliver a fair amount of fun! They will not oxidize in 20 years too.

[Brumby]

They will not oxidize in 20 years too.

Wanna bet!

[www2]

A example of a product design by marketing™.

[EEVblog]

This SOLUS device is NOT a convection heater, it does not emit heat directly (only to a lesser degree).

There will be natural convection due to the heat ultimately rising. And they claim is also does convection.

Our unique heating technology works with both traditional convection based heating as well as infra-red heating, meaning that each SOLUS unit can heat a 15m2 space with up to 20x less power usage.

 But it is not an internal circulation convection heater because the air cannot circulate around the element. It is essentially the same as an oil radiator in terms of convection but in a different form factor. Yes it will have some (a lot of?) IR, but ultimately that doesn't matter. It is certainly not a pure IR radiator.

Instead it is just another Infrared Light emitter. IR light will create heat only in the single bodies which receive this IR light, but will heat up the room only indirectly and partially.
Therefore, one can't compare IR directly with convection heating, especially not in terms of efficiency.
That's the core statement to debunk, and the scientifically bad temperature measurement / comparison they did.

Yes, and that's the entire point, and that's what I basically did.
To increase the temperature in a room you need to input more BTU's than are being lost to the outside, simple as that, it doesn't matter what type of heat transfer it is.
A $500 200W woo-woo graphene heater outputs the same BTU's as a 200W $15 K-Mart special.

I think I need to do another whiteboard video about space heating.

[EEVblog]

And we have a response!

They seem to be claiming the graphene magically produces heat during the off-cycle!

It is also clear that EEVblog has no response besides crude gestures to this statement “we have found that raising the temperature of our heating element is most effective through supply of non constant/pulsed electric current. It works in the following way, the heating element is supplied with 1.5 seconds of electric current and is then cut off from supply for another 1.5 seconds. This process is repeated until the heater reaches it’s maximum temperature. We observed that during the off cycle (1.5 seconds when current is cut off) the heating element continues to generate heat due to the self cooling properties of graphene, which results in a difference of potentials.”

As for sending review units to tech journalists 
None of them would have the skills, time, motivation, or resources to properly test this. Even I would have a hard time doing it and it would take a long time to conduct proper tests.

[nctnico]

And we have a response!

They seem to be claiming the graphene magically produces heat during the off-cycle!

It is also clear that EEVblog has no response besides crude gestures to this statement “we have found that raising the temperature of our heating element is most effective through supply of non constant/pulsed electric current. It works in the following way, the heating element is supplied with 1.5 seconds of electric current and is then cut off from supply for another 1.5 seconds. This process is repeated until the heater reaches it’s maximum temperature. We observed that during the off cycle (1.5 seconds when current is cut off) the heating element continues to generate heat due to the self cooling properties of graphene, which results in a difference of potentials.”

I think this guy should ask his money back from the school he went to. It seems they skipped basic physics. 

[EEVblog]

Hmm, in a bit of bind over this one.
I realise it was a poor overly long video and I didn't explain some things well. But I don't want to pull it and redo it because there are so many comments already, but I won't be able to do it until Monday some time, and I want to keep the video up so people know about this dodgy Kickstarter.
So I guess it just has to stay... 

In any case I plan on doing a proper tutorial video hopefully on Monday on space (room) heating and the types of heaters and uses and losses etc as that seems very timely. But not sure if I should keep that as a strict tutorial, or also include some kind of follow-up comments as well?

[HalFET]

I've  read a lot on how  Graphene  is  suppose  to  replace  silicone  in transistors  to make them smaller and  more  heat efficient  in the manufacture of LSI  circuits like Intel  processors    with  transistors   less  10 manometers   in  size.  This  would  make  more  sense to  me than using  Graphene  to heat a room

Graphene is the buzz word to get research funding, that's the magic behind it. Others that (used to) work: carbon nanotubes, bucky balls, 2D materials, perovskite, nano pillars, ...  Graphene has some interesting properties, but it's honestly not worth the effort to bother with in most cases. The interesting properties require a perfect crystalline structure spanning large surface areas. And a single layer of atoms ain't exactly the strongest thing in the world, so it's quite sensitive to the conditions it's used in. And applying protective layers also causes issues. That being said, I need some quick money. I am going to coat steaks in nano-graphene (aka, I'll put them in a smoker) and sell them as nanotechnology steaks. Please sponsor me on kickstarter! 

Also, wouldn't tempered glass (which is most of the thermal mass of this thing) be horrible as heat reservoir? Meaning you'd actually have to leave it on. Water, stone and oil radiators can last for hours after turning them off...

[tszaboo]

This SOLUS device is NOT a convection heater, it does not emit heat directly (only to a lesser degree).

There will be natural convection due to the heat ultimately rising. And they claim is also does convection.

Please look up infrared heating panels. It is not about the BTUs, it is about the comfort. A room with convection heating is comfortable at around 22 Celsius. While the sun is shining, you can be outside ins shorts in 15 degrees, because the sun directly heats you with IR. There are many restaurants here, where people eat outside in the snow, because there is an IR heater.

It is not magic, but most of the heat is not emitted as BTU, but infrared, which doesn't heat the air, instead it bounces around in the room, and heats the objects and you. The radiator is not the same, as the regular heaters operate at around 60-70 degrees, and emit most energy as BTU, while IR heater operates at higher temperature.

It is not going to be 95% better. But it works, it is installed at my parents, I've been to hotels that only had this heating. The glass doesnt matter, because it is just translucent to IR.

It is not going to produce more heat. It makes the room comfortable with less energy. Maybe it reduces losses.
And it is not an excuse for all the bullshit they rack up.

[EEVblog]

Also, wouldn't tempered glass (which is most of the thermal mass of this thing) be horrible as heat reservoir?

I would imagine so.

[voltsandjolts]

I recently bought a car with heated seats - OMG, they are fantastic.

I think all sofa's should also be heated seats, much more efficient than heating the whole room. There you go SOLUS, you can have that idea for free... and it works.

[EEVblog]

Please look up infrared heating panels. It is not about the BTUs, it is about the comfort. A room with convection heating is comfortable at around 22 Celsius. While the sun is shining, you can be outside ins shorts in 15 degrees, because the sun directly heats you with IR. There are many restaurants here, where people eat outside in the snow, because there is an IR heater.

It is not magic, but most of the heat is not emitted as BTU, but infrared, which doesn't heat the air, instead it bounces around in the room, and heats the objects and you. The radiator is not the same, as the regular heaters operate at around 60-70 degrees, and emit most energy as BTU, while IR heater operates at higher temperature.

This one operates at 100 degC internally and cycles of to 48degC.
Yes, they are producing IR, but how much we don't know. They claim it's both IR and convective based.

Our unique heating technology works with both traditional convection based heating as well as infra-red heating, meaning that each SOLUS unit can heat a 15m2 space with up to 20x less power usage.

It is not going to be 95% better. But it works, it is installed at my parents, I've been to hotels that only had this heating. The glass doesnt matter, because it is just translucent to IR.
It is not going to produce more heat. It makes the room comfortable with less energy. Maybe it reduces losses.
And it is not an excuse for all the bullshit they rack up.

The problem is there own big test focuses on heating a room by a given temperature, to do that requires more BTU's to input than are being lost outside the room. With 200W - 300W equivalent in BTU's, that's bugger-all.

[EEVblog]

There own tests show this isn't the case, it's much more than their rated claim

[EEVblog]

Oh, we didn't think of that! 

[EEVblog]

Translation: We spent years developing this and didn't bother to do a proper room test, but we'll do that now during the Kickstarter! 

[EEVblog]

Documenting 
(This person pulled their pledge)

[EEVblog]

They replied to everyone else, except this guy 

[EEVblog]

And no reply to this troublemaker

[EEVblog]

Oh boy, the comments are great!



and they replied

[EEVblog]

Lastly, your comment with regards to our ability to deliver this product. As stated in the campaign page, we already have working models and a production line that is producing 2000 units per month, we only came to Kickstarter, to raise the capital to expand our production process and make the product more widely available to the general public around the world.

They are already making 2000 units a month!

Yet they, by their own admission in the comments and updates are only now doing actual room testing and are in the process of sending it out to independent test houses

[EEVblog]

Reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/ansmbv/solus_the_most_efficient_radiator_in_the_world/

[EEVblog]

It uses long infrared

[EEVblog]

More, because you never know when they'll decide to start pulling comments

[HalFET]

Lastly, your comment with regards to our ability to deliver this product. As stated in the campaign page, we already have working models and a production line that is producing 2000 units per month, we only came to Kickstarter, to raise the capital to expand our production process and make the product more widely available to the general public around the world.

They are already making 2000 units a month!

Yet they, by their own admission in the comments and updates are only now doing actual room testing and are in the process of sending it out to independent test houses

This might apply:


But I was skimming around the internet for infrared panel heaters and found these: https://www.tectake.co.uk/infrared-heater-850-w-with-thermostat-401972 The product itself isn't that interesting, but the description very much is:

For infrared heaters, the room’s volume is not relevant, but the actual area of the enclosure. Usually, this includes the four walls, floor and ceiling. To simplify your calculation, we limit the whole thing to the base surface, i.e. the size of the room. To do this, you need the length and width of the room. Suppose the room is 6 metres x 5 metres, that equates a room size of 30 m². These 30 m² of floor space are now multiplied with an *output value of 75 Watt per m² (up to 2.60 m height). Amounts to: 30m² x 75 Watt/m² = 2250 Watt.Therefore, you need a heating capacity of 2250 Watt. You can now choose these as either 2 x 900 Watt + 1 x 450 Watt = 2250 Watt or as 2 x 1200 Watt = 2400 Watt.Higher wattage does not mean that more power is consumed. On the contrary, this rather results in faster heating, so that the infrared heater is shut off earlier.Please note that this output figure of 75 Watt/m² was calculated based on a ceiling height of up to 2.60m. Should the room be higher, add an additional output value of 5 Watt/m² per 5 cm. At a ceiling height of 3 metres, that would equate an additional 40 Watt. The result would be an *output level of 115 Watt/m². Multiplied with the floor area, 30 m² in this example, this amounts to: 30 m² x 115 Watt/m² = 3450 Watt.Depending on the angles and corners of the room, you can now choose your matching heating panels. Thus a room in an L-shape requires at least 2 panels as a single panel’s rays would not reach the entire space. This can be clearly seen by shining a torch from a corner in the room. For not all walls are illuminated. Light is a ray after all and radiation heat works the same way. Using a second torch, you can now light up the entire room.Please note the impact radius of 3.50 meters. A torch loses its brightness the further away it is from the illuminated object. Infrared rays lose their intensity at a range of around 3-4 meters resulting in long heating periods.For rooms that are subject to greater humidity, such as bathrooms, for example, simply calculate twice the dimensions. That way, you will experience your baths like a swim in the sea. You won't freeze despite having wet skin. That is the advantage of infrared heating.

So yeah, you're only going to need at least 5 of the large Solus panels for the average sized living room. 

[EEVblog]

Plenty on aliexpress

[EEVblog]

So yeah, you're only going to need at least 5 of the large Solus panels for the average sized living room. 

But, but, graphene!

[HalFET]

But, but, graphene!

But I like my nano materials with more sulfide!   

And there's one important question we're forgetting here: do they use free-range artisanal-sourced bio-graphene from FSC-compliant charcoal or the industrial laser-ablated or worse chemical vapour deposited one? I want to be sure my graphene only comes from charcoal made from the highest quality Swedish evergreen trees and was manually exfoliated by seasonal workers wearing hemp shirts!

[SeanB]

I think I have a nice use for this, put 4 legs on it, a nice pattern on the glass and you have a perfect warming tray to keep your food warm on the table. You know, just like the old warming tray you use, just with graphene, and not made by Salton and looking straight out of 1970 with the wood grain stickers.

[jonovid]

at least you can watch a plasma television.

[nctnico]

So yeah, you're only going to need at least 5 of the large Solus panels for the average sized living room. 

But, but, graphene!

I wonder how much is actually true about the graphene claim. Regular carbon will do just fine to make a resistive element. Another thing that would worry me is how long the product will last. The repeated heat & cold cycles will likely crack the paste at some point.

[frozenfrogz]

This kind of product always reminds me of the inventions by Dr. Nobel Price from the Sesame Street.
In case you do not remember: Dr. Price keeps inventing stuff that already exists in his "far-off island laboratory", thinking it will be THE solution to a common problem (i.e. boots made entirely from water proof material, so you finally can walk in the rain without getting wet feet).
The same might be true with most "inventions" that hit the crowd funding platforms: People thinking they have a pretty smart idea while reinventing the wheel without actually validating against what is already out there.

In this case: Yes, electric heaters are more efficient in converting electric energy into heat radiation than heating water -> pumping water through a pipe system -> transfering heat from water filled radiators to the surrounding air. Of course they are comparing apples and pears...

Corrupted crowd funding projects and flat earth theory have something in common in that regard.

[HalFET]

In this case: Yes, electric heaters are more efficient in converting electric energy into heat radiation than heating water -> pumping water through a pipe system -> transfering heat from water filled radiators to the surrounding air. Of course they are comparing apples and pears...

Actually, I wouldn't be so quick to say that. If my flu-infested brain remembers correctly, power plants run around 60% efficiency. A condensation gas boiler (typical for European central heating systems) will do 80-90% efficiency, the (air-gaped) tubing used to transport the water to the radiator runs in the floor or ceiling, so all the "lost heat" is usually deposited straight into the room where you want it anyway. So unless you're in a country with abundant and cheap green electricity, the gas boiler is probably more economical and more environmentally friendly.

[frozenfrogz]

I did not mean to use this as a valid (sane) example in terms of actual thermo dynamics, but to illustrate how their thought process might have been to come up with the crazy claims.

Maybe I should have phrased it differently: If you compare their product to a water based heating system and only count the amount of heat that directly affects the room you are doing the calculations on, you *might* be able to 'prove' the claims.

[max_torque]

Can we please, please get our terminology correct!

Efficiency is not the same as Effectiveness.  And for heat transfer systems the two, admittedly similar sounding, words refer to VERY different properties.

Any resistive electrical to thermal energy conversion system is intrinsically 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat energy. However, that 100% Efficient system could actually be 0% EFFECTIVE. For example, consider a coil of wire, heated by current passing through it.  Now put that coil of wire in a vacuum effectively stopping  convection and conduction, what happens to the wire?  The answer is, it probably melts!  If you put 100W of electrical energy in, the resistance of that wire turns that into 100 watts of heat, and if that heat cannot escape as fast as it is being put in, the temperature of the wire will climb, eventually till it melts.  This is because thermal transfer is driven by the thermal impedance AND the difference in temperature.  This should be obvious!

So, for a system to say heat a house, what actually matters?

Well we do want the greatest efficiency possible, ie for every watt we put in (in whatever form) we get a watt of heat out.  Well, hurrah, resistive electrical heaters are 100% efficient, so happy days, that one is solved

And Effectiveness?  This governs is the maximum heat flux (heating power) that can be driven out of the heater into it's environment for any given temperature difference.  Given that we don't want our heater to have to run at say the temperature of the sun (which manages to drive heat across millions of miles of space to burn your nose as you sit on a beach in summer....), or our heater to be larger than a car, high effectiveness is useful, but it DOES not change the efficiency of the system at all!

So please, can we stop saying "efficient" when we mean "effective"......

[madires]

Is Solus the radiator equivalent of audiophoolery? Or is it the Dunning–Kruger effect at work? I also see strong indications of a cognitive dissonance. It looks like Solus is in the same league as Batteroo and will provide great entertainment.

[Nusa]

I don't know about Australia, but in the US heating with gas is typically far cheaper than heating with electricity. (Unless you've got electricity from your own solar/wind setup that is going to waste.)

My 1950's era 20,000 BTU natural gas top-vent wall heater is cheaper to use than any electric heating solution.

[coppercone2]

did you go over the safety aspect of having a cool artsy looking glass panel heated to 100c on a bench top or wall?

like i said thats going to burn small children and animals

It's like hanging a fucking griddle in your living room ?? who does that? did people lose their senses since the 1970's because of apple (they used to have cages on these things to mitigate burns and surface area of burns. Even for a new life form that thermal air currents and red hotness of the heating elements in a conventional heater seems at least suspicious or interesting enough to slow down (usually scary unless someone is really out there). This is like a booby trap. 

I burned my hand like hell when I was little because I decided to climb all over a semi truck and touched the vertical mufflers, at least that was hard to get to. If I had one of these in the living room I would probably look like two face.

[HalFET]

did you go over the safety aspect of having a cool artsy looking glass panel heated to 100c on a bench top or wall?

like i said thats going to burn small children and animals

It's like hanging a fucking griddle in your living room ?? who does that? did people lose their senses since the 1970's because of apple (they used to have cages on these things to mitigate burns and surface area of burns. Even for a new life form that thermal air currents and red hotness of the heating elements in a conventional heater seems at least suspicious or interesting enough to slow down (usually scary unless someone is really out there). This is like a booby trap.

We used to have cast iron and diesel stoves in living rooms that went up way higher than that. They'll only touch it once.

[coppercone2]

can a piece of cast iron fall off the wall because someone decided to hang it on sheet rock hooks (that are not even installed properly) or fall on you because its positioned on a wobbly table? People probably won't even look for studs. It will prob be mounted on a painting string.

Those things weigh like 200 LB plus. IT's a different story. Those things kids avoid because it even look slike you will get hurt if you run next to it and bump into it because of kinetic energy alone (kids seem to realize this). Stoves just look dangerous. And they look scary (think home alone basement scene where he is always scared of the furnace).

This thing is small, quiet, does not smell, etc. And it can fall on you because its low mass.

I was around one of those too. I spent some time in a very very very ancient house when I was young in europe. But its different then a thin cool looking object (polished metal, glass, etc) being roaring hot.

Kid's already get hurt by TV's falling on them. But now imagine a TV @  100C+. 

[madires]

I don't know about Australia, but in the US heating with gas is typically far cheaper than heating with electricity. (Unless you've got electricity from your own solar/wind setup that is going to waste.)

My 1950's era 20,000 BTU natural gas top-vent wall heater is cheaper to use than any electric heating solution.

Exactly! We pay about 0.30 EUR/kWh. Gas or oil are more economical for heating.

[edgelog]

I've seen "Watt per hour" several times here, and Dave even said it out loud in the video. There's no such thing. It's just "Watt".

[daqq]

Someone linked your video Dave! And it got a reply.

[HalFET]

can a piece of cast iron fall off the wall because someone decided to hang it on sheet rock hooks (that are not even installed properly) or fall on you because its positioned on a wobbly table? People probably won't even look for studs. It will prob be mounted on a painting string.

Those things weigh like 200 LB plus. IT's a different story. Those things kids avoid because it even look slike you will get hurt if you run next to it and bump into it because of kinetic energy alone (kids seem to realize this). Stoves just look dangerous. And they look scary (think home alone basement scene where he is always scared of the furnace).

This thing is small, quiet, does not smell, etc. And it can fall on you because its low mass.

I was around one of those too. I spent some time in a very very very ancient house when I was young in europe. But its different then a thin cool looking object (polished metal, glass, etc) being roaring hot.

Kid's already get hurt by TV's falling on them. But now imagine a TV @  100C+. 

There's always some loss at the side. 

You also have people who are stupid enough to put up a dresser without a safety strap, if the primary argument is "think about the children" we should only allow padded objects to exist.

[NiHaoMike]

For example, consider a coil of wire, heated by current passing through it.  Now put that coil of wire in a vacuum effectively stopping  convection and conduction, what happens to the wire?  The answer is, it probably melts!  If you put 100W of electrical energy in, the resistance of that wire turns that into 100 watts of heat, and if that heat cannot escape as fast as it is being put in, the temperature of the wire will climb, eventually till it melts.  This is because thermal transfer is driven by the thermal impedance AND the difference in temperature.  This should be obvious!

So make the wire out of tungsten in order to withstand the high temperatures. And rather than a plain glass bottle, shape it and aluminum coat part of it in order to reflect the heat in one direction. Those at least used to be available in stores (probably still are in many places), but some are trying to ban them for "poor efficiency".

I can see the radiator heater being inefficient at heating the space where it matters, especially with a tall ceiling, but there are loads of cheaper options that will do well. If installing a heat pump in the room is not an option, the next best option might actually still be a heat pump, directing the cold air upwards (counteracting heat rising and uselessly heating up the ceiling) and the warm air where you want it.

[justanothername]

They should instead take old motherboards from the dumpster mount them inside a radiator housing and mine bitcoins, controlled by a thermostat.
Somewhat a more efficient heater because you do something with your energy before converting it to heat.

[pylo]

Ok, while also seeing all the bullshit in the Solus campaign, I do think it can make heating more economical. By emitting a large portion of the heat as IR, it can give away heat faster - note, not more efficient, just faster. Meaning it warms up the same with the same power, but cools down faster. It has less thermal mass. So if your goal is then to get your small room up to a predefined temperature, you can turn off the radiator sooner. With traditional oil radiators, you'd turn off the radiator once you've reached your target temperature, at which point your radiator has still a lot of heat stored, so in the end you're going to over-heat your room and you've needlessly wasted electric power. If you have less "thermal mass" in the radiator, you can get away with less redundant heating, hence being "more efficient" (economically, not physically).

I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.

How much saving that actually amounts to? Dunno, but 80% seems way too much for me, that part is probably just BS again. Not even mentioning that IR heat won't heat air up (at least not directly).

[GigaJoe]

as many noted, it more like a radiant heater.  So, it would be comparable to that one:
https://www.amazon.com/Optimus-H-4110-9-Inch-Dish-Heater/dp/B000GG8DTS

aaand i would admit a mirror dish are much more efficient design, anyway, with the same power consumption.

[justanothername]

at which point your radiator has still a lot of heat stored, so in the end you're going to over-heat your room and you've needlessly wasted electric power. If you have less "thermal mass" in the radiator, you can get away with less redundant heating, hence being "more efficient" (economically, not physically).

I think it does not matter. You have a mean temperature, and your temperature control loop and maybe, in your case with the high thermal mass, a regulator oscillation. But for the averaged mean temperature you need the same amount of energy, no matter what you do. The needed amount of energy is always proportional to the thermal conductivity of your room to the cold air outside.
Insulation therefore is the only thing that helps. In my case i like the insulation as near as possible to the body, sweaters and socks and so on.

[nctnico]

I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.

No. A room is likely to have way more thermal mass than a tiny radiator. And even if the radiator works longer than necessary the temperature will go up and only when it drops below the setpoint the radiator will be switched on again. There will be no loss in efficiency. Just less comfortable due to larger temperature variations.

[pylo]

at which point your radiator has still a lot of heat stored, so in the end you're going to over-heat your room and you've needlessly wasted electric power. If you have less "thermal mass" in the radiator, you can get away with less redundant heating, hence being "more efficient" (economically, not physically).

I think it does not matter. You have a mean temperature, and your temperature control loop and maybe, in your case with the high thermal mass, a regulator oscillation. But for the averaged mean temperature you need the same amount of energy, no matter what you do. The needed amount of energy is always proportional to the thermal conductivity of your room to the cold air outside.
Insulation therefore is the only thing that helps. In my case i like the insulation as near as possible to the body, sweaters and socks and so on.

Yes, for an average temperature over a long time period in a room you'll need the same power either way. But you're forgetting that people will set an average temperature in the room so that they're never cold, and so if you have large temperature oscillations due to your slow control loop, people will set higher average temperatures. So a low-thermal-mass radiator, that potentially creates less oscillations (and hence a more "even" temperature over time), can use less power for the same comfort (because the user sets lower mean temperatures).

[richnormand]

Two comments/concerns here.

First is the use of the graphene paste. Much like the early days of carbon nanotube there were several studies when the tech started go out of the lab and went in production with kilogram quantity. Several well documented studies looked at the issues relating to breathing them. Some were toxic due the the chemicals residues used and some were toxic due to size and could permeate cell walls. Once in your lungs they could stay there forever. It took several years to sort it out. The hepa filters were not efficient at cleaning the air in the lab and exhaust to the outside was ruled out by the safety committee. Now forward several years ahead and should the paste they used start to dry out will the heather become an active source of nanoparticles in your room that you will breathe in? Assuming the paste does contain graphene to start with....

Second is that there are alternatives to this format already on the market.
A combination of no fan noise, both IR radiation and some natural air convection around the unit may have some advantage for "perceived" comfort

We used to have in the 60's a heather made on a 1m by 0.8m plate glass that was coated with a metallic thick film and two electrodes at each ends. It was very comfortable in the cottage in winter since it would get warm and heat the surrounding air via convection and emit IR that you could feel immediately several meters away. Eventually the glass cracked violently in the middle of the night. Sounded like someone threw a rock on a large window.

These formats are still available:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heatable_glass
https://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/tb/techbriefs/materials/3363
http://www.isquaredrelement.com/pdf/New%20and%20Improved%20Float%20Glass%20Element%20WDB%20%2012-23-15.pdf
http://www.egpglass.com/products/thermique-heated-glass/

[pylo]

I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.

No. A room is likely to have way more thermal mass than a tiny radiator. And even if the radiator works longer than necessary the temperature will go up and only when it drops below the setpoint the radiator will be switched on again. There will be no loss in efficiency. Just less comfortable due to larger temperature variations.

You didn't fully get what I said.

As you say you can expect higher temperature variations with a large thermal mass radiator (though this need not necessarily be the case, it is far from unlikely). That will cause the user to set a higher target temperature, so that even in the "cold" phases of the regulation the user won't feel cold. This means a higher average temperature, which means higher electric consumption. The electric-watts-to-thermal-btu conversion ratio is still the same of course, but you're heating more than necessary, hence you're economically less friendly (and financially less efficient).

EDIT: This has nothing to do with graphene though, that part of he campaign is just complete and utter bogus, unless it is *the* material that emits IR+convection heat in the "optimal" (whatever that is) proportions. Unlikely, as otherwise they would have said so, I guess.

[coppercone2]

can a piece of cast iron fall off the wall because someone decided to hang it on sheet rock hooks (that are not even installed properly) or fall on you because its positioned on a wobbly table? People probably won't even look for studs. It will prob be mounted on a painting string.

Those things weigh like 200 LB plus. IT's a different story. Those things kids avoid because it even look slike you will get hurt if you run next to it and bump into it because of kinetic energy alone (kids seem to realize this). Stoves just look dangerous. And they look scary (think home alone basement scene where he is always scared of the furnace).

This thing is small, quiet, does not smell, etc. And it can fall on you because its low mass.

I was around one of those too. I spent some time in a very very very ancient house when I was young in europe. But its different then a thin cool looking object (polished metal, glass, etc) being roaring hot.

Kid's already get hurt by TV's falling on them. But now imagine a TV @  100C+. 

There's always some loss at the side. 

You also have people who are stupid enough to put up a dresser without a safety strap, if the primary argument is "think about the children" we should only allow padded objects to exist.

I mean, when you start combing hot, top heavy, fragile (glass) and poor support by design and by sales recommendation you are really really starting to ask for trouble. You usually only have only two of those.

Like a waffle iron is pretty dangerous in one  regard but its heavy, sits well on a table top, does not have incredible surface area,  etc.

I mean and their also lying their ass completely off with all the thermal bullshit. Its just a nice looking heater thats IMO dangerous for a home.

Like I swear if you hung a griddle off your wall I don't think you would feel too safe in that room?



Like seriously think about it. Is that a good idea to do in the home, to hang a griddle on the wall like its a painting? or have it sit on a coffee table like a flat screen TV?

Do you have like a loaded bear trap on your coffee table as a display piece or something?

[EEVblog]

I did not mean to use this as a valid (sane) example in terms of actual thermo dynamics, but to illustrate how their thought process might have been to come up with the crazy claims.

Maybe I should have phrased it differently: If you compare their product to a water based heating system and only count the amount of heat that directly affects the room you are doing the calculations on, you *might* be able to 'prove' the claims.

But they claim 95% compared to eletric heaters as well:

SOLUS will save you approximately 80% off the cost of your heating (compared with conventional water based radiators) and over 95% off the cost of your heating (if you heat your home with other electric radiators).

[EEVblog]

did you go over the safety aspect of having a cool artsy looking glass panel heated to 100c on a bench top or wall?

like i said thats going to burn small children and animals

It's like hanging a fucking griddle in your living room ?? who does that? did people lose their senses since the 1970's because of apple (they used to have cages on these things to mitigate burns and surface area of burns. Even for a new life form that thermal air currents and red hotness of the heating elements in a conventional heater seems at least suspicious or interesting enough to slow down (usually scary unless someone is really out there). This is like a booby trap. 

I burned my hand like hell when I was little because I decided to climb all over a semi truck and touched the vertical mufflers, at least that was hard to get to. If I had one of these in the living room I would probably look like two face.

They are going to supply a protective cover!

[nctnico]

I'm pretty sure this is the theory behind Solus, but of course any decent PID regulator could take care of the above problem even with traditional oil radiators. The problem is: most mobile radiators don't come with one. Most don't even come with a regulator at all (just a static power level knob), and those that do, do simple target-temperature-threshold switching and have no PID control. Solus, being a low-thermal-mass radiator, could probably create a more accurately working PID regulator for it, and that is where the operating-cost advantage should come from.

No. A room is likely to have way more thermal mass than a tiny radiator. And even if the radiator works longer than necessary the temperature will go up and only when it drops below the setpoint the radiator will be switched on again. There will be no loss in efficiency. Just less comfortable due to larger temperature variations.

You didn't fully get what I said.

As you say you can expect higher temperature variations with a large thermal mass radiator (though this need not necessarily be the case, it is far from unlikely). That will cause the user to set a higher target temperature, so that even in the "cold" phases of the regulation the user won't feel cold. This means a higher average temperature, which means higher electric consumption.

Even simple electric heaters with mechanical switches have a small enough hysteresis to keep the temperature constant enough in a room. And again: the thermal mass of any radiator will be much lower than the room and everything which is in it. The situation you are sketching is purely hypothetical; it doesn't exist in the real world.

[aram]

Apart from the Kickstarter campaign being a total fraud, these things are positively awful. Some relatives of mine were scammed by people selling exactly the same device (this scam seems popular in Romania), so I had the misfortune of seeing the device in action. Or rather, I failed to see anything, because 200-300-400W is NOTHING, it's simply not enough. An idle person radiates 100W, a small candle radiates 70W. My electric oven is 5.5kW. The gas boiler that heated my old apartment was 24kW, and until I added an extra layer of thermal insulation outside the unit, I wished I'd have bought the 34kW unit.

And Dave is right, the majority of the puny amount of generated heat goes into the wall. If you have a cold room, the walls will be colder than the air (otherwise the room would heat up from the walls and you would not require heating). Several hours after the damn device is activated, the room is still cold, but the wall behind the unit is warm to the touch. Completely hopeless design.

By the way, it's "heat capacity", I don't know who coined the term "thermal mass" and why.

[MT]

Have anyone mentioned graphite yet? Solus claim graphene paste but thats more likely graphite paste. Graphene however is defined as a single layer of carbon atoms arranged in a hexagonal lattice and not a paste and would be transparent. A graphene heating element would be interesting, i assume it wouldn't work very well.

A typical graphite paste is foamed graphite (purification method of graphite after mining) mixed with a clay which often are pressed into pencils and other commodity things.

I bet Solus element would not be covered by house insurances in the current format (cover less) despite their claim to EN standard.

This Solus Maxim Interbrink dude portray him selfs as classics fraudster, con artist making things up along the way.

[richnormand]

I was at the Graphene conference in Barcelona two years ago and there was an interesting paper showing that a lot of companies claiming graphene were not actually graphene,  based on several material analysis checks such as Raman spectroscopy, EDX/XRF, surface laser test, etc... 
So at the end of the day we do not really know what is in that "paste" do we?

[HalFET]

I mean, when you start combing hot, top heavy, fragile (glass) and poor support by design and by sales recommendation you are really really starting to ask for trouble. You usually only have only two of those.

Like a waffle iron is pretty dangerous in one  regard but its heavy, sits well on a table top, does not have incredible surface area,  etc.

I mean and their also lying their ass completely off with all the thermal bullshit. Its just a nice looking heater thats IMO dangerous for a home.

Like I swear if you hung a griddle off your wall I don't think you would feel too safe in that room?



Like seriously think about it. Is that a good idea to do in the home, to hang a griddle on the wall like its a painting? or have it sit on a coffee table like a flat screen TV?

Do you have like a loaded bear trap on your coffee table as a display piece or something?

If it's mounted properly so it doesn't fall off? Sure.

[NiHaoMike]

Or rather, I failed to see anything, because 200-300-400W is NOTHING, it's simply not enough.

The radiated heat coming off a 75W reflector incandescent bulb is quite significant, and those are commonly available up to 250W for actual heating applications. Put it on a dimmer to throttle it to exactly what's needed and that would increase the lifetime substantially.

[electromotive]

They've got to make sure they orient the graphene shmoo properly, otherwise graphene goes from radiating heat to being an incredible insulator.

[MT]

Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gan%C4%ABbu+dambis+24,+Zieme%C4%BCu+rajons,+R%C4%ABga,+LV-1005,+Latvia/@56.9824012,24.1181456,3a,75y,119.49h,93.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXyYd5IO_SI4D-YADdwTDzg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x46eecfa23410cae9:0x2a8399b56282781b!8m2!3d56.982265!4d24.1186144

[SiliconWizard]

Looking at this company for instance:

https://www.theglobalgraphenegroup.com/thermal-paste

looks like the form of graphene as a paste is typically used as thermal paste. I can see how it has high thermal conductivity, but I'm not sure how it would act as an heating element at this point (but I must admit I haven't looked at Solus' claims extensively as the 95% off was already hilarious.)

The tempered glass - isn't that what's used on infrared cooking stoves? I guess that lets infrared light pass with no issues, but as to heat, it has poor thermal conductivity as Dave said. On those stoves, it's explicitely choosen to stay cold outside of the heated spots. I can see how that would help their "radiators" be colder on the surface than other heaters but are they really infrared heaters?

They claim their radiators emit infrared heat. According to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_heater
Does Solus really qualify as a so-called "infrared heater"? Sounds a bit unclear to me.

They also claim "most electrical radiators reach 100°C surface temperatures". Hello? 

[electromotive]

Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building

It seems to be broken up into smaller spaces. It has that "mob operation in a warehouse" vibe.

[daqq]

Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building:

It's actually pretty common to see old 'soviet era' buildings and manufacturing plants re-purposed for this kind of thing - renting out to small companies, even with multiple companies sharing the same building.

[MT]

Solus claimed factory address, seams to be some worn out sovjet era shoe manufacturing building:

It's actually pretty common to see old 'soviet era' buildings and manufacturing plants re-purposed for this kind of thing - renting out to small companies, even with multiple companies sharing the same building.

Yes i know that, but i wanted to induce some more bad vibes for those in the west who dont know about Sovjet!

[MT]

=SiliconWizard link=topic=172401.msg2236977#msg2236977 date=1551579173]
Looking at this company for instance:
https://www.theglobalgraphenegroup.com/thermal-paste
looks like the form of graphene as a paste is typically used as thermal paste. I can see how it has high thermal conductivity, but I'm not sure how it would act as an heating element at this point (but I must admit I haven't looked at Solus' claims extensively as the 95% off was already hilarious.)

Strange how the definition of one single atom layer of carbons suddenly is misused to turn it into a paste. While it for past 50 years been labeled as graphite paste. Perhaps sales goes up?! The Noble price in 2010 for graphene:
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2010/press-release/

[Cnoob]

A couple of weeks ago I purchased a heater from
https://cpc.farnell.com/daewoo/hea1417/quartz-heater-800w/dp/HG01048

Because they were cheap £8.28 I bought my mum one and took it down to her.

Why would you even consider spending 300 euros on a low wattage space heater, let alone this 10 kilos of glass and some cpu heatsink paste?

PS you can even find glass weight calculators online as well as cheap heaters, Laws of thermodynamics, and how to heat a room efficiently.https://www.wikihow.com/Efficiently-Heat-a-Room

In other words I do not understand people buying into this.


 

[plurn]

Please join my kickstarter for μWave™ heater that will save you 80% of your wasteful Solus heater electricity usage. It will use 38 watts of microwave energy to directly heat the people in the room without wasting energy heating the surrounding air and walls. Sign up for the premium package and we will include aluminium foil wallpaper for your walls to stop the microwaves escaping. ;p

[SiliconWizard]

=SiliconWizard link=topic=172401.msg2236977#msg2236977 date=1551579173]
Looking at this company for instance:
https://www.theglobalgraphenegroup.com/thermal-paste
looks like the form of graphene as a paste is typically used as thermal paste. I can see how it has high thermal conductivity, but I'm not sure how it would act as an heating element at this point (but I must admit I haven't looked at Solus' claims extensively as the 95% off was already hilarious.)

Strange how the definition of one single atom layer of carbons suddenly is misused to turn it into a paste. While it for past 50 years been labeled as graphite paste. Perhaps sales goes up?! The Noble price in 2010 for graphene:
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2010/press-release/

Well, techically, graphite is multiple layers of... graphene.

Graphene itself is nothing new, it was theorized in the 60s (or even earlier)? And the term coined in the 80s I think.

Of course the graphene frenzy is backed by this initiative: https://graphene-flagship.eu/
A one-billion euros project from mother EU, nothing less!

[richnormand]

Please join my kickstarter for μWave™ heater that will save you 80% of your wasteful Solus heater electricity usage. It will use 38 watts of microwave energy to directly heat the people in the room without wasting energy heating the surrounding air and walls. Sign up for the premium package and we will include aluminium foil wallpaper for your walls to stop the microwaves escaping. ;p

This seemed to actually have been proposed in 1996...
New Scientist link:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15220615-500-not-cooking-but-warming-serious-researchers-are-turning-themselves-into-living-radiators-by-walking-into-giant-microwave-ovens-pete-moore-wonders-why/

This was the December issue. I was expecting an April 1st special though.

Never mind having everything in the room microwave safe with the exception of your tinfoil hat and eyeballs and some lower appendages too  of course....

[JimRemington]

This sort of crap will never end.  The internet connects a very large number of con artists to a truly infinite supply of suckers.

They aren't even clued in by the phony name of the project creator, "Maxim Interbrick", who also seems to have founded a company of some sort:

Engagelink SA is a Digital Integrator based in Switzerland and operating across Europe.
The Head Office is located in Lausanne, Canton Vaud.

We are specialized in all possible integrations of digital platforms of any kind. Currently,
we provide mobile infotainment solutions and digital signage for major clinic groups in
Switzerland, as well as multi-touch table solutions for worldwide aviation lounges in some
of the most important airports.

We combine precision and highest quality with flexible, fast and custom-tailored solutions.
We are engaging Swiss quality and innovative technologies in a digital world. Our main goal
is to reach out to hospitality and healthcare sectors by providing them with dedicated media, information and health platforms.

https://www.engagelink.net/about.html

[SiliconWizard]

Well, he seems like a real person: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximinterbrick

From his profile, looks like a serial founder of dodgy startups though

[JimRemington]

Well, he seems like a real person: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximinterbrick

No doubt of that. But don't you wonder what his real name might be, after the authorities catch up with him?

[SiliconWizard]

Well, he seems like a real person: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maximinterbrick

No doubt of that. But don't you wonder what his real name might be, after the authorities catch up with him?

Granted LinkedIn doesn't check identity...

[JimRemington]

If you look at the "Maxim Interbrick" LinkedIn page, the skills listed for the entity are marketing and sales. No science or engineering, of course.

Con artist from about age two, most likely.

[bsfeechannel]

You want to save on heating? Let's use a little science. Supposing your room is spherical, the heater is in the center, the thermal properties are homogeneous (doors and windows have the same properties of walls) and you are a reptile, this could be an equivalent thermal circuit.



The solution to cut on heating expenses is to find a heater with the least R_θEC and provide your room with the highest value of R_θWA. Q will be minimal, T_C and T_W will be the highest possible, and you'll be comfortably somewhere between these two temperatures.

Problem solved.

[golden_labels]

I am wondering, what was the actual idea behind SOLUS. Most snake oil manufacturers are actually believing in their inventions. Following the AGF rule, let’s assume that those people are trapped in some misconception. But which one, exactly?

Perhaps the original idea was that the resistive heater quickly heats up the glass, which — being a good thermal insulator — will not release the heat to the air, but mostly radiate it out as IR? This would make the device a directional IR radiator. In this scenario they would want to transfer heat from the heater as fast as possible to avoid losses at the sides, so using the best available thermal paste is consistent with the solution.

Of course even if one is following that logic, SOLUS would still output 50% of its energy to the wall behind, but hey… we’re talking about people, who are already having considerable gaps in their thinking.

time:
Following the idea presented by plurn, I have an even better solution. Mileage may vary, but on average $25350 would be saved¹. Just buy a gallon of gas, pour it at yourself and fire a lighter. You will oxidize in the process, but it should not affect the heating properties of this method — not as long as you are alive.
____
¹ Based on SOLUS data, $845/yr heating cost.

[nctnico]

You want to save on heating? Let's use a little science. Supposing your room is spherical, the heater is in the center, the thermal properties are homogeneous (doors and windows have the same properties of walls) and you are a reptile, this could be an equivalent thermal circuit.

Actually there are rules of thumb to calculate the amount of power required for to heat a room:
living room / office: 80W / m^3
bathroom: 90W / m^3
other rooms: 65W / m^3

BTW I'm not sold on the 'glass is a thermal insulator' argument. The surface area is huge (think why glazing is usually double and the trend is to go for triple). The argument is just as useless as (for example) comparing the conductivity of steel versus copper without taking the actual size of the conductor into account.

[HalFET]

You want to save on heating? Let's use a little science. Supposing your room is spherical, the heater is in the center, the thermal properties are homogeneous (doors and windows have the same properties of walls) and you are a reptile, this could be an equivalent thermal circuit.

Actually there are rules of thumb to calculate the amount of power required for to heat a room:
living room / office: 80W / m^3
bathroom: 90W / m^3
other rooms: 65W / m^3

BTW I'm not sold on the 'glass is a thermal insulator' argument. The surface area is huge (think why glazing is usually double and the trend is to go for triple). The argument is just as useless as (for example) comparing the conductivity of steel versus copper without taking the actual size of the conductor into account.

You're overthinking the problems with this thing.

For a heater of this type the thermal conductivity doesn't matter too much. The main effect it has is limiting the maximum temperature you can operate the heating element at (aka how much power you can dump into it). Any thermal energy you generate is still going to end up in the room. What's really going to kill this thing its performance is its very limited surface area. Normal radiators use every trick in the book to increase their surface area. For example, the water circulation based radiators common in Europe will use either multiple tubes (older design) or a massive amount of "cooling fins" attached to the panel in which the water flows. So a perfectly flat slate panel is quite inefficient as far as convective heaters go. So as convective heater this thing can't even stand up to fifty year old technology. But this thing is also crap as a radiative heater, because its power output is too low for a common living room, unless if we consider tiny Hong Kong apartments as the standard these days.

Another property which is important for electric heating is thermal capacity, usually you want to run the heater for a short time and then have it maintain the temperature for an extended period of time. This is especially the case when you have a day and night rate or solar panels, you want to run it on the cheapest rate and keep them running on their thermal capacity at other times. This is why you have storage heaters using water, oil, ceramic bricks, etc. You can then control the rate at which you lose air to the room by controlling the air flow through the storage medium or heat exchanger. This thing also fails in this aspect because tempered glass has a horrible heat capacity.

So yeah, it either needs to go up a magnitude in power or somehow extract zero point energy from the vacuum to make up the short fall (obviously through graphene magic).

[aram]

Good grief:

.

[wilfred]

It's one thing to raise awareness of this nonsense to prevent uninformed ignorant backers from wasting their money. That's fine and laudible. But don't waste energy trying to convince this Maximum Dropkick fellow he is wrong. He either already knows it and is just exploiting others for his own greed, or he doesn't know it and is exploiting others for his own greed.

[free_electron]

Why the number 8 appears so much in these sorts of products..?

The octavo may be involved. eight son of an eight son and all that stuff you know ...

[free_electron]

i just had a brilliant idea : power this thing powered using a batterizer with a nearly empty cell. 5 times the efficiency in this thing , 800% in the batterizer. A half empty AA cell should be enough to heat the whole house for 24 hours.
i submit this idea as public domain.

[SilverSolder]

Is there really no comeback against scammers and/or fantasists on Kickstarter?

[bsfeechannel]

You want to save on heating? Let's use a little science. Supposing your room is spherical, the heater is in the center, the thermal properties are homogeneous (doors and windows have the same properties of walls) and you are a reptile, this could be an equivalent thermal circuit.

Actually there are rules of thumb to calculate the amount of power required for to heat a room:
living room / office: 80W / m^3
bathroom: 90W / m^3
other rooms: 65W / m^3

BTW I'm not sold on the 'glass is a thermal insulator' argument. The surface area is huge (think why glazing is usually double and the trend is to go for triple). The argument is just as useless as (for example) comparing the conductivity of steel versus copper without taking the actual size of the conductor into account.

You're overthinking the problems with this thing.

We use this the whole time in electronics engineering. So for me this is second nature.

The thing is that what keeps me warm is not the energy dissipated by the heater, it is the temperature of the room. If I have a room with an incredibly high thermal resistance from its walls to the world, say, infinite, not considering the thermal capacity of the system, i.e., giving enough time, with a 1W heater, the temperature of the room will be infinite.

Conversely, if I have a room with a very low thermal resistance, say, zero, not even the most powerful heater will be capable of raising the temperature of the room, not even by one degree (Celsius, Fahrenheit or whatever).

Of course, if your heater has a poor thermal resistance, it will be hot, not the room.

So if you want an efficient heating system, make sure your house has a good thermal insulation, and that your heater is capable of producing the least temperature difference between the heating element and the room.

You can instantly destroy Solus's claim by showing that what makes heating efficient is the SYSTEM (heater+room) not the heater per se.

Any Inuit will tell you.

[wilfred]

Is there really no comeback against scammers and/or fantasists on Kickstarter?

It isn't unique to or new since KS came into being. This sort of thing has existed and will exist as long as people exist who want to believe it.

[EEVblog]

This glass IR panel heater manufacturers has calc for room sizes:
Oops, 750W for the same size room Solus claims. But of course, no woo-woo graphene that produces energy with no input 
And they have a proper calculator that takes into account the wall material type etc.

[bsfeechannel]

Their UK site has a more elaborate calculator. There, thermal insulation of the room is important. I chose cavity brick walls, single glazed windows, roof, floor and ceiling, all uninsulated. For a 12m² room with 4 external walls, and 4m² glazed area, they recommended four 700W panels, i.e. 2800W.

When I chose insulation for the walls, roof, ceiling and floor, triple glazed windows and 0 external walls, the recommendation fell to just a single 850W panel.

Besides, UK can have temperatures as low as -20°C. If you live in a subtropical area where the temperature will not be less than 0°C, your requirements will be obviously less.

I said earlier that the heater's thermal resistance was important. But it isn't. I mean, it is for the designer of the heater who needs to maintain its internal temperature under the specs. But not for the user. The user only cares about the temperature of the room. So as long as your heater dissipates all the incoming energy as heat in the room, the efficiency of the system is only a function of the thermal insulation of the room.

So, Solus' claims are totally unfounded in many levels.

[EEVblog]

Is there really no comeback against scammers and/or fantasists on Kickstarter?

Yes, you an report it, but it has to be completely obvious to the non-technical reviewer at KS, or the floods of reports has to be so overwhelming that they have no choice.

[EEVblog]

Their UK site has a more elaborate calculator. There, thermal insulation of the room is important. I chose cavity brick walls, single glazed windows, roof, floor and ceiling, all uninsulated. For a 12m² room with 4 external walls, and 4m² glazed area, they recommended four 700W panels, i.e. 2800W.

Yes, I used this in a video I'm rendering now.

I said earlier that the heater's thermal resistance was important. But it isn't. I mean, it is for the designer of the heater who needs to maintain its internal temperature under the specs. But not for the user. The user only cares about the temperature of the room. So as long as your heater dissipates all the incoming energy as heat in the room, the efficiency of the system is only a function of the thermal insulation of the room.
So, Solus' claims are totally unfounded in many levels.

As I explain in a new video coming out, it does depend on what you desire, plus placement in the room, and of course the room losses are the big thing is you are trying to heat a space fairly uniformly.
If you locate a big heater close to some large loss points for example, your system efficiency (as defined by a point in the room you want to heat up) get worse than having the heater elsewhere.

But yeah, the claims are essentially completely unfounded. And the claim about the graphene producing heat for no energy input is ridiculous.

[EEVblog]

Good grief:

.

I can't wait for the video tomorrow, but I might have to lock myself in a padded while whilst watching...

[StillTrying]

They sometimes show this type of junk on UK semi-respectable shopping channels.

They switch the electric radiator on for a bit then use an IF thermometer to show that the surface temperature is still rising just after it's been switched off.

[Muttley Snickers]

They should combine these two elements, and then we would have, wait for it.....






Graphene Freakin' Solar Roadways!

[EEVblog]

Kinda a follow-up, but more a general tutorial:

[EEVblog]

More comments

[mc172]

They are wrong about the kettle heating element instantly cooling down. It wouldn't, its rate of change would decrease smoothly towards zero change, aka the peak temperature, and then the rate would increase equally smoothly in the direction of cooling.

[bitwelder]

Good grief:

.

Did they put graphene in their panels or some kind of radioactive material? 

[MT]

=SiliconWizard link=topic=172401.msg2236977#msg2236977 date=1551579173]
Looking at this company for instance:
https://www.theglobalgraphenegroup.com/thermal-paste
looks like the form of graphene as a paste is typically used as thermal paste. I can see how it has high thermal conductivity, but I'm not sure how it would act as an heating element at this point (but I must admit I haven't looked at Solus' claims extensively as the 95% off was already hilarious.)

Strange how the definition of one single atom layer of carbons suddenly is misused to turn it into a paste. While it for past 50 years been labeled as graphite paste. Perhaps sales goes up?! The Noble price in 2010 for graphene:
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2010/press-release/

Well, techically, graphite is multiple layers of... graphene.
Graphene itself is nothing new, it was theorized in the 60s (or even earlier)? And the term coined in the 80s I think.

Well, technically thats wrong since graphene is a chemical definition of one sheet of one single atom layer, everything else chopped up, pasted,multi layered, whatever is just graphite flakes since it is 3D and in case of carbon is resistive.
So Solaris saying grapehene paste is just dishonest marketing bullshit. 

Graphene defined in 1961-62 by proff Hanns-Peter Boehm.

[MT]

Tjernobyl is a fine example of graphite rods (not graphene rods) pushed in to quickly between uranium pellets creating excessive energy.

Maxim Interbrick is totally immune to quantum physics , a great sign of a fraudster. Besides his weird name.

[SiliconWizard]

That doesn't seem quite true. Graphene pastes (as graphite pastes) are primarily made of flakes, indeed, in suspension, pretty much as many other kinds of pastes AFAIK. What exactly are one-layer flakes and how they are produced, I don't know. Not my field.

One can find an article studying some of their properties here: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlepdf/2018/cp/c8cp02196a

AFAIK again, current uses of graphene in many projects is actually in the form of pastes. Whether this really makes sense or gives a clear benefit is kinda outside of my area of expertise, I'm not a chemist, but there are numerous scientific articles out there, some apparently published through reputable journals.

The fact that the compound itself seems to exist (as being defined by flakes in suspension and whatever it really is good for) doesn't make Solus' claims any more relevant for all the reasons exposed in this thread. It seems to defy basic laws of physics.

[tszaboo]

Good grief:

That is a terrible answer indeed, completely not understanding physics.
They lost all credibility after this.

[darrellg]

Is there really no comeback against scammers and/or fantasists on Kickstarter?

Yes, you an report it, but it has to be completely obvious to the non-technical reviewer at KS, or the floods of reports has to be so overwhelming that they have no choice.

Challenge accepted. I reported it.

[aram]

Kickstarter responded... not:

[darrellg]

I got the same response. Apparently obeying the laws of thermodynamics is not one of Kickstarter's rules.

[nixxon]

Interesting Graphene recap video (with an impressive 10,004,268 views):
 

[MT]

That doesn't seem quite true. Graphene pastes (as graphite pastes) are primarily made of flakes, indeed, in suspension, pretty much as many other kinds of pastes AFAIK. What exactly are one-layer flakes and how they are produced, I don't know. Not my field.

Thats why you draw the wrong conclusions that graphene is a paste who cant be "per the definition" it got back in 1961. Paste is 3 D graphene is 2 D.

AFAIK again, current uses of graphene in many projects is actually in the form of pastes. Whether this really makes sense or gives a clear benefit is kinda outside of my area of expertise, I'm not a chemist, but there are numerous scientific articles out there, some apparently published through reputable journals.

There are no such thing as reputable journalists only fake news.

The fact that the compound itself seems to exist (as being defined by flakes in suspension and whatever it really is good for)

as said already the definition of graphene is that of a single layer of carbon atoms, cut that sheet up and its not graphene anymore, this per the definition of graphene. But then comes the question how small or large has a sheet of graphene to be to be called graphene?

[EEVblog]

My spidey sense is getting that astroturfing tingly feeling

[EEVblog]

Kickstarter aren't going to do anything about Solus

[EEVblog]

And another response:

[StillTrying]

Kickstarter Trust & Safety.

How can making 100% false claims, and using nonsense "190 Watts per hour" not be against KS rules, are they admitting false claims are OK.

[EEVblog]

Kickstarter Trust & Safety.
How can making 100% false claims, and using nonsense "190 Watts per hour" not be against KS rules, are they admitting false claims are OK.

They don't have anyone technical enough internally to validate this stuff, it's just ruled on by some generic Joe who went to a liberal arts college and formally worked on trust & Safety at Patreon or something.

EDIT: I had to check, there is a job opening:
https://www.kickstarter.com/jobs/trust-and-safety-analyst-risk

[Dr. Frank]

Dave, I'm really thrilled about your latest video, because you nicely explained the Thermodynamics in a very comprehensive manner. 
Even Black Body radiation (Stefan Boltzmann law) was mentioned.

You mentioned several times that producing heat is always 100% efficient.. the thermo dynamical reason is, that all energy forms, like mechanical, electrical, chemical, atomic, may all be transferred in another form, down into heat, which is the last and least valuable one. That's an implication of the 2nd theorem of Thermodynamics, that any form of 'inner energy' will always be transferred irreversibly into heat, or in other other words, entropy is always increased.
If anybody claims, that his heat generating process to be >100%, then he also tries to violate another implication of the 2nd theorem, 'there does not exist a perpetual motion machine of the second kind'.

And that's exactly what SOLUS try to implicate, with their voodoo Graphene, and all their wish-washy statements, that their panel delivers still heat, when switched off.

You have put it right, instead, by pointing out that all such heaters simply store the initially consumed (electrical) energy in their body mass, which of course can be emitted later on.

Frank

[SilverSolder]

Well, if Kickstarter is not taking down obvious scams despite being warned by the engineering/scientific community, we can only conclude that they are in on it and are opening themselves up to class action lawsuits down the road.  All it will take is for a creative lawyer to do the math on this...

[EEVblog]

Well, if Kickstarter is not taking down obvious scams despite being warned by the engineering/scientific community, we can only conclude that they are in on it and are opening themselves up to class action lawsuits down the road.  All it will take is for a creative lawyer to do the math on this...

I expect them to eventually use an excuse like "We don't want to stifle true innovation", and of course the classic "they laughed at the Wright brothers" line.
Maybe not having someone on staff with the knowledge to make a call on technical stuff like this is a deliberate move?

[nctnico]

Well, if Kickstarter is not taking down obvious scams despite being warned by the engineering/scientific community, we can only conclude that they are in on it and are opening themselves up to class action lawsuits down the road.  All it will take is for a creative lawyer to do the math on this...

I expect them to eventually use an excuse like "We don't want to stifle true innovation", and of course the classic "they laughed at the Wright brothers" line.
Maybe not having someone on staff with the knowledge to make a call on technical stuff like this is a deliberate move?

Probably. Doing some calculations on projects and checking if the claims are valid from a legal point of view is a massive job. Still I think Kickstarter will have to do this at some point. Probably they will be forced by government agencies dealing with shares and securities. Larger websites like Facebook, Youtube, Google, etc have large teams dealing with judging which content is appropriate and which is not.

[madires]

From Kickstarter's support pages (https://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees):

If your project is successfully funded, the following fees will be collected from your funding total: Kickstarter’s 5% fee, and payment processing fees (between 3% and 5%). If funding isn’t successful, there are no fees.

[SparkyFX]

Technically, they sell a 300W heater, there is no scam in there.

Even the efficiency claim is kind of correct, not that converting electrical energy to heat can beat 100%, but as that heater has a small mass on its own, it takes less energy to heat to operating temperature, hence the warmup cycle goes faster, should you consider warmup into efficiency calculations.

The problem with this KS campaign is that they claim this to be sufficient for an area of 20m² and redefine the need to heat up the whole mass within that space, not just a single person. This is kind of a legal loophole that no one said what mass is in that room (other than a thermometer). So legally this runs into the question what a customer can expect and the definition of what a living space is.

Now... that 300W won´t do the job is pretty obvious to anyone trying to heat some place and having attended physics in school. Even with a 2kW unit in winter it might be hard.

[StillTrying]

Here's a happy customer taking advantage of its >95% electricity saving and powering it using batteries. Good luck with that.

[JimRemington]

Interesting that the "creator", currently calling himself "Maxim Interbrick" is so clueless about voltage.

[StillTrying]

Well at least he's not saying volts per hour!
I can't see how they'll work from 48V to 220V without using any heat wasting electronics.

[Halcyon]

This stinks of the Batteriser campaign. It doesn't matter how many times they say "the graphene continues to generate heat" and "we have a video that proves it", it doesn't make it true.

Facts are facts, whether or not they are convenient to "Max" of Solus.

[EEVblog]

They finally mention BTU's and 100% efficiency!
But, magic graphene woo-woo, therefore better

[EEVblog]

Maybe KS are going to take some action?

[EEVblog]

Yep, it's been suspended with 10 hours left
Doesn't mean it's cancelled, I suspect they are going to ask Solus to prove their claims.
This is now tricky business because it possibly puts some sort of legal liability on Kickstarter if they suspend it, evaluate the claims, and then reinstate it?

[Halcyon]

I suspect Solus will simply realise their chances of succeeding with this scam is slim to none and will cleanse their campaign and remove references to "most efficient radiator in the world" and all mentions of graphene generating heat after power is disconnected.

They will go on to sell a sub-standard space heater with a trendy design, pocket as much cash as they can in the process and move on to the next scam.

[EEVblog]

Kickstarter did not contact Solus before suspending it it seems.

I actually don't agree with that, and explanatory email should have been sent before or at the same time. But it seems this all just happened minutes ago and I just happened to check shortly after someone posted that tweet.
Someone says their pledge was cancelled, so maybe KS have actually cancelled it? 

[EEVblog]

I suspect Solus will simply realise their chances of succeeding with this scam is slim to none and will cleanse their campaign and remove references to "most efficient radiator in the world" and all mentions of graphene generating heat after power is disconnected.

I'm wouldn't be so sure. Many people who run these kinds of things do genuinely believe in what they are doing actually works.

[Halcyon]

I suspect Solus will simply realise their chances of succeeding with this scam is slim to none and will cleanse their campaign and remove references to "most efficient radiator in the world" and all mentions of graphene generating heat after power is disconnected.

I'm wouldn't be so sure. Many people who run these kinds of things do genuinely believe in what they are doing actually works.

I honestly can't believe some people can be that stupid and deluded... but then again... Scientology is a thing.

[Nusa]

Technical claims aside, someone may have realized that this rule was probably being violated:

Projects that share things that already exist, or repackage a previously-created product, without adding anything new or aiming to iterate on the idea in any way.

(underline added)

Electric radiant heaters are all over the place, as a simple search will demonstrate.

[EEVblog]

Technical claims aside, someone may have realized that this rule was probably being violated:

Projects that share things that already exist, or repackage a previously-created product, without adding anything new or aiming to iterate on the idea in any way.

(underline added)

Electric radiant heaters are all over the place, as a simple search will demonstrate.

Even the concept of using graphene is not new, as I showed in my video, a company was previous shut down by the government for exactly the same product and claims.

[EEVblog]

They have no clue why it was suspended, but of course Kickstarter approved it in the first place, so obviously their claims are valid 

[EEVblog]

Hmm, you sign up for the mailing list and they have their address in Leeds UK.
So the compaign is listed in Switzerland, their own factory is in Latvia, and the company is listed in the UK 

This guy is the head of strategy at Koleda and is based in Leeds, so that makes sense.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/toma-paro-2791a960/

[Andrew McNamara]

Maxim Interbrick is a rather unique name...

https://www.fbomedia.ch/about-us/

https://blueskynews.aero/issue_260/ClearChannel_and_Adlux_create_first_global_private_aviation_digital_advertising_network.htm

https://www.engagelink.net/about.html

[Muttley Snickers]

This is now tricky business because it possibly puts some sort of legal liability on Kickstarter if they suspend it, evaluate the claims, and then reinstate it?

I haven't been following all of the recent events but I honestly believe that some of these clown funding organisations deserve a good kick in the arse, their lack of filtering and monitoring gives the entire process a bad name and hinders good products and reputable campaigns.   

[SilverSolder]

Well, if Kickstarter is not taking down obvious scams despite being warned by the engineering/scientific community, we can only conclude that they are in on it and are opening themselves up to class action lawsuits down the road.  All it will take is for a creative lawyer to do the math on this...

I expect them to eventually use an excuse like "We don't want to stifle true innovation", and of course the classic "they laughed at the Wright brothers" line.
Maybe not having someone on staff with the knowledge to make a call on technical stuff like this is a deliberate move?

Looks like if enough people complain [and you make a video about it...], Kickstarter will put a stop to it. 

They cannot avoid legal responsibility if they knowingly permit fraudulent activity on their site that they benefit from. 

[EEVblog]

Maxim Interbrick is a rather unique name...

https://www.fbomedia.ch/about-us/

https://blueskynews.aero/issue_260/ClearChannel_and_Adlux_create_first_global_private_aviation_digital_advertising_network.htm

https://www.engagelink.net/about.html

This certainly seems like an oddball group.
This Maxim guy who is a media networking promotions blah blah guy, another marketing/strategy guy in the UK, and who else?
They are probably just subtracting out the whole shebang

[Andrew McNamara]

This certainly seems like an oddball group.
This Maxim guy who is a media networking promotions blah blah guy, another marketing/strategy guy in the UK, and who else?
They are probably just subtracting out the whole shebang

I did find photos, and they appear to show the same guy - there does appear to be only one Maxim Interbrick.

There were some more personal links, which I didn't include (easy enough to find, though) - he seems to be a real person.

[FrankBuss]

Yep, it's been suspended with 10 hours left
Doesn't mean it's cancelled, I suspect they are going to ask Solus to prove their claims.
This is now tricky business because it possibly puts some sort of legal liability on Kickstarter if they suspend it, evaluate the claims, and then reinstate it?

Point 6 of their terms of use tries to exclude any liability. But might not be valid if they get sued. But in this case it is simple: It is a clear violation of their rules. Unless I missed it, Solus didn't provide a controlled test, like using a $10 heater for heating a room for a day with temperature measurements, and then using the panel for the same room and it has the same temperature curve, but needed only 20% of the energy.

Their test video where Solus needs only 66% compared to an oil heater is bullshit, because they measured the temperature only once at the beginning and then once after 24 hours. So probably the oil heater has heated the room to 20°C in an hour, and then maintained this for the other 23 hours, but we don't know how long Solus needed to reach this temperature. He even says in the video that it is more effective if you do the test for a week. Sure, if you want to freeze for 6 days until it gets to 20°C at day 7, then Solus is perfect for you and it might even work for bigger rooms

I reported it as well two days ago and got the same eMail:



Maybe they have some threshold, like ignore less than 10 reports and only then take a look at the project.

[EEVblog]

Maybe they have some threshold, like ignore less than 10 reports and only then take a look at the project.

Likely, unless it's absolutely obvious to the non-technical Joe Average they have working in the trust and safety review team.
And you can't expect a Joe Average with no engineering experience to evaluate something like this, because on the surface it seems like a genuine campaign, with genuine responses to questions and genuine tests etc. It's only upon inspection of the finer technical details of the claims does this fall apart.

[FrankBuss]

They should make enough money by now to hire one or more good engineers to review the problem cases. It would be useful for their reputation.

[EEVblog]

More comments

[StillTrying]

That won't be getting un-suspended.

There's a least one in the comments who still wants one.

[EEVblog]

Anyone want a unit to test? 

[aram]

If they are willing to send units for testing, it means they are not simply scammers, but truly delusional.

[FrankBuss]

Someone should tell them that it doesn't need a scientist who specialized in thermodynamics. Just any high school student could tell them that they are wrong and could measure it. But easiest for them would be to watch Dave's video. And first step for them would be to buy a introduction physics book so that they don't write nonsense like "watts per hour" (still in the FAQ of their Kickstarter).

[EEVblog]

Someone should tell them that it doesn't need a scientist who specialized in thermodynamics. Just any high school student could tell them that they are wrong and could measure it. But easiest for them would be to watch Dave's video. And first step for them would be to buy a introduction physics book so that they don't write nonsense like "watts per hour" (still in the FAQ of their Kickstarter).

Or simply by the same IR panel on Aliexpress and do an A-B comparison. But of course that might shatter you illusion that the graphene woo-woo has magical powers.

[Nusa]

If they are willing to send units for testing, it means they are not simply scammers, but truly delusional.

It's not what they say, it's what they actually do. Elections should teach us that lesson, if nothing else does. Let me know when it happens.

[bsfeechannel]

Their test video where Solus needs only 66% compared to an oil heater is bullshit, because they measured the temperature only once at the beginning and then once after 24 hours. So probably the oil heater has heated the room to 20°C in an hour, and then maintained this for the other 23 hours, but we don't know how long Solus needed to reach this temperature. He even says in the video that it is more effective if you do the test for a week. Sure, if you want to freeze for 6 days until it gets to 20°C at day 7, then Solus is perfect for you and it might even work for bigger rooms

Well spotted.

[FrankBuss]

Thanks, but I think Dave mentioned it in his debunk video as well. Don't know if I would have spotted it. At first glance their video looks convincing, but it doesn't need a scientist to find the flaw, just critical thinking. I'm not sure if they are only delusional or scammers.

[golden_labels]

How does a 2kW oil heater use 31.1kW? Units problems again?

What they showed with this video is that they have no slightest idea about conducting experiments and publishing meaningful data.

So, the room is 16m². This is a bit smaller than the room I am sitting in right now. With the temperatures outside below 0°C and the heater not working at all, the only source of heat being my computer, me and — occasionally — cooking food, at the end of 2018 the air temperature was around 21°C. Since all three components are present anyway, they do not count to the energy consumption, so I may safely say that I used 0kWh. That is infinitely better than SOLUS!

Of course the magic comes from being in a large building, surrounded by from all sides by apartments — some of them inhabited by older people, who have opened the valves to max years ago and never cared about changing that. The point is that we know literally nothing about what is around the SOLUS test chamber. What we know is that sun exposure was uneven during the test. If the building is poorly insulated and dark, they may be getting few free kilowatts just from the sun.

[…] Sure, if you want to freeze for 6 days until it gets to 20°C at day 7, then Solus is perfect for you and it might even work for bigger rooms

Unfortunately this thinking is as flawed as the criticized product itself. If SOLUS is capable of going to 21°C in 7 days, it is capable of maintaining it indefinitely¹ later, using no more energy that it did for the initial heating. Therefore even if the oil heater is faster, with SOLUS you could just heat int up once and never turn it off through the cold saeson².

I'm not sure if they are only delusional or scammers.

Probably the former. This is why I was earlier trying to imagine, what they are actually believing in.
____
¹ Assuming the same conditions.
² Assuming that their claims would be true.

[FrankBuss]

[…] Sure, if you want to freeze for 6 days until it gets to 20°C at day 7, then Solus is perfect for you and it might even work for bigger rooms

Unfortunately this thinking is as flawed as the criticized product itself. If SOLUS is capable of going to 21°C in 7 days, it is capable of maintaining it indefinitely¹ later, using no more energy that it did for the initial heating. Therefore even if the oil heater is faster, with SOLUS you could just heat int up once and never turn it off through the cold saeson².

That's right. But if it gets colder outside, it probably can't maintain it anymore, if the isolation is not perfect.

[golden_labels]

Oh, I do not doubt it will fail. I was just pointing out mistake in the critique.

[Dr. Frank]

In this crude video, they measure the energy (i.e. the paid work) in kW, confusing it with power, that's  also clearly misspelled in all these overview tables.

Real power dissipation and switch on/off profile of the convection heater, and  the SOLUS panel is also not measured and transparent to the viewer.

Therefore, you can't even comprehend, what they have really measured on that meter, if it was power, energy, or something else. I could also not resolve the unit on that meter.

They also have absolutely no clue on relevant thermal units and parameters, and how to properly determine them, like temperature (in the right places), heat, convectional and radiation energy, heat capacity, room volume (speaking of 15m² AREA only), isolation, etc.

I wonder, if they really have no clue, or if they intentionally cheat with dirty tricks in this video.

Frank

[FrankBuss]

In this crude video, they measure the energy (i.e. the paid work) in kW, confusing it with power, that's  also clearly misspelled in all these overview tables.

Real power dissipation and switch on/off profile of the convection heater, and  the SOLUS panel is also not measured and transparent to the viewer.

Therefore, you can't even comprehend, what they have really measured on that meter, if it was power, energy, or something else. I could also not resolve the unit on that meter.

Right, energy is measured in joule. Watt is not energy, but power. 1 W is 1 J / s. But I guess they mean kWh, which would be energy, and those meters can do this. Otherwise the high number wouldn't make sense. Yes, they labeled it wrong in their video, saying it saved 20.5 kW. They should go back to school again and learn the basics

[madires]

I wonder, if they really have no clue, or if they intentionally cheat with dirty tricks in this video.

Apparently Dunning–Kruger effect.

[SilverSolder]

In this crude video, they measure the energy (i.e. the paid work) in kW, confusing it with power, that's  also clearly misspelled in all these overview tables.

Real power dissipation and switch on/off profile of the convection heater, and  the SOLUS panel is also not measured and transparent to the viewer.

Therefore, you can't even comprehend, what they have really measured on that meter, if it was power, energy, or something else. I could also not resolve the unit on that meter.

Right, energy is measured in joule. Watt is not energy, but power. 1 W is 1 J / s. But I guess they mean kWh, which would be energy, and those meters can do this. Otherwise the high number wouldn't make sense. Yes, they labeled it wrong in their video, saying it saved 20.5 kW. They should go back to school again and learn the basics

It is either a scam or monumental incompetence.  Either way, a fool and his money are soon parted!

[SenseofScale]

I just checked my email and received this (attached snip) from kickstater. Looks like some good came from all the complaints.

[GadgetBoy]

The end.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[edy]

Suspended! Good work!

One of the ways they "scam" people with this graphene stuff is that people are confused by efficiency of electricity to heat conversion versus the radiative capability of the materials involved. Let's assume the following and you'll see why this scam works so well:


1. Imagine an electric element heating up a 10kg block of granite to a temperature of 100 Celsius (large thermal mass). That will require a lot of energy and will take time for the block to heat up.... and the surface area of that block will not dissipate the heat very well. However, once the element is turned off, that block will continue to radiate the heat for many hours while it slowly cools down even with the element off.

2. Now imagine the "graphene" or whatever flat radiator material with VERY LITTLE thermal mass. It takes very little energy to heat up the material, and it cools down very quickly. Air passes over the large surface area and "pulls out" the heat, equilibrating back the graphene surface to room temperature. You need to pulse the surface because it takes very little to heat it up, and then it cools down again.

You can see the fallacy in the logic and why it confuses so many people. The efficiency of converting electrical energy to heat is the same. The difference is that on one hand you have a more efficient (faster) transfer of heat into air compared to another. The graphene system will transfer the heat more quickly to the air due to it's large surface area and minimal thermal mass. The granite 10kg block will take much longer to heat up, but by the same token, continue to radiate heat for hours after the electricity is turned off.

At the end of the day, when you heat your room you will use the same energy since you have the same physical problem... and same input of electricity with conversion to heat through resistive element. The difference is whether you feel an immediate wave of heat coming off the thing and rapid cycling or gradual ingress with large thermal mass giving you a more steady curve.

[HalFET]

At the end of the day, when you heat your room you will use the same energy since you have the same physical problem... and same input of electricity with conversion to heat through resistive element. The difference is whether you feel an immediate wave of heat coming off the thing and rapid cycling or gradual ingress with large thermal mass giving you a more steady curve.

Or you can have both at once, which is why hot water radiators with a central gas heater are still very popular over here.  

[frozenfrogz]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/

...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

[FrankBuss]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/

...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

0 backers so far. Looks like people are not *that* dumb and to at least a google search before they back something.

[Kean]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/

...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

0 backers so far. Looks like people are not *that* dumb and to at least a google search before they back something.

No backers yet probably only because it just went up, and I'm sure that won't last.  They'll almost certainly have some shills backing it as well.  Of course they've gone with a flexible goal this time!

Also interesting to note how lazy/rushed they were getting this up.  The text still mentions Kickstarter in many places and the fact the campaign is going to end soon.  That could possibly lead to some people doing research and finding the KS campaign... 

[StillTrying]

Backers 0
Complaints 6
And they're still using Watts per hour.
Someone on KS is asking what happened, they mustn't be able to read.

[frozenfrogz]

Here is the answer email by Indiegogo:

"Hi there,

Thank you for sharing your concern with us. At this time, the campaign is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms). We will follow up with you if we have any further questions.

So what happens now? We will include the information you have provided along with all other information at our disposal in our review of the campaign. In some cases, we will contact the campaign owner to have them edit their campaign and it will remain on our platform. If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign. We may also restrict the campaign owner's future activities on Indiegogo.

To protect our users' privacy, we're unable to share the action we take. At Indiegogo, we take the trust and safety of our community very seriously, and we greatly appreciate your patience and understanding throughout this review process. To learn more about Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety effort, please visit: www.indiegogo.com/trust

Please note that you do not need to contact us again. Doing so would create a new ticket and prolong the process. Thank you again for taking the time to get in touch with us and for helping to keep Indiegogo a safe and secure platform."

[HalFET]

I did some more hunting into the Interbrick character. It would appear some of his current Switzerland-based business ventures are registered through "Blue Lakes Advisors SA" in Geneva. (So I call letterbox operation on this one.) However, I couldn't find any registration details for Koleda, but given the pattern of other businesses I suspect it's also been registered through them if it actually exists. In fact, I looked very long and very hard and I couldn't find any legal entity which would go by the name Koleda anywhere. And while not the complete list, this gives you a pretty good idea of some of the stuff he's been up to in Switzerland: https://sogc.ch/#!/search/archive?keyword=Maxim%20Interbrick&executeInitialSearch=true

Since the documents are in French, let me summarise (no guarantee this is correct though, my French is very rusty):
The first Swiss venture he was tied to by name in the trade register is ALC Agency, which seems to be airport related advertising. However, this enterprise seems to have been disbanded after a few years (ALC Agency Sàrl was liquidated in 2011 after a sketchy run). The only trace of this company I could find was this snippet from himself. However, Adlux Sàrl does something very similar to ALC by the looks of it, so probably Adlux is some form of continuation business. Pretty much all his other businesses are also in this market, and he seems to have multiple legal entities for Adlux (Adlux Switzerland Sàrl, Adlux Holding SA, Adlux Sàrl - in liquidation) and EngageAd (EngageAd Sàrl, EngageLink SA). Not going to bother listing the rest since you can find it quite quickly if you start looking through the SOGC website. Now the interesting bit is that these companies don't even seem to have a completed website in multiple cases, which seems a bit odd for a business in marketing or advertising. But then again, he might simply have a solid customer base and not really bother keeping those up to date, so I'm not really sure what to think of this. You can also find some trace of him in the UK if you search Companies House, but that seems to be related to his Swiss ventures.

Anyway, I suspect Koleda brought him in to do the initial advertising campaign (something he does seem to be reasonably good at) and that he's not really the brain behind this product. It'd be interesting to see who's actually behind Koleda, but I sadly can't find any business registration. If someone wants to hunt for the legal entity that's running the Latvian factory, you can probably find the company registration information here: https://www.ur.gov.lv/lv/?v=en&v=en&v=en&v=en

[EEVblog]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/
...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

Just two backers so far, but both have shelled out over US$1k 

[bitwelder]

Just two backers so far, but both have shelled out over US$1k 

Well... I wonder if those backers are real, or if it's "Maxim's marketing friends"

[HalFET]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/
...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

Just two backers so far, but both have shelled out over US$1k 

It's down to one again, and it's a fairly common tactic on indiegogo to "buy" from yourself to make yourself look more legit, so might just be one fake as well.

[GadgetBoy]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/
...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

Just two backers so far, but both have shelled out over US$1k 

If you look at the one backer's history, you can see that he's got a habit of dumping money on obvious scams, so he's likely a shill.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[Bud]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/
...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

Just two backers so far, but both have shelled out over US$1k 

If you look at the one backer's history, you can see that he's got a habit of dumping money on obvious scams, so he's likely a shill

It is a "service" that he provides, for a fee.

[EEVblog]

One of the two backers pulled out! 

[GadgetBoy]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world--2#/
...just to have both Solus threads on the same page...

Just two backers so far, but both have shelled out over US$1k 

If you look at the one backer's history, you can see that he's got a habit of dumping money on obvious scams, so he's likely a shill

It is a "service" that he provides, for a fee.

*whispers conspiratorially*

That's what a shill is.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[EEVblog]

"Under review"!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-most-powerful-on-the-world#/

[GadgetBoy]

"Under review"!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-most-powerful-on-the-world#/

Got another one! Good job!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

[orion242]

Agreed, nice.

Though I think one could spend countless hours chasing these nuts.  This one is funny because they certainly put some time and effort in the marketing.  Nice looking units and all.  Their quick payday evaporated.

One has to wonder really how long & where they pop up next.  Dave certainly pissed in their corn flakes none the less.

[EEVblog]

That UK graphene heater scam:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/retired-couple-pay-8000-revolutionary-8506577

[Halcyon]

Dave certainly pissed in their corn flakes none the less.

 

[nixxon]

God evening. Here is a very fresh video about graphene by Computerphile:

[StillTrying]

I missed this bit of fun from about 2 months ago. Why not just paint the sludge on to walls and connect it the the mains, it'll all be fine honest.

1) Can your products be used for floor heating? I mean: instead of hanging it on a wall, lay it flat on the floor (recess it into the floor to make it flush with the rest of the floor, of course). If so, are your products strong enough for one or more persons to walk over them occasionallly or regularly when built into a floor to function as floor heating?

3) Instead of those static brackets, do you also offer wheels so that the radiator can easily be carted around the room and house?


Thank you for your questions!

1) Under floor heating is another product we will release in short order. We turned our Graphene based compound into a thick paint. This paint can be applied on any surface (including under floor) and connected to mains. The amazing thing about this is that even if you drill a hole through this paint, the electricity will flow around the hole and the heating continues uninterrupted. This is super efficient and has numerous applications! For example, big commercial spaces, such as warehouses and storage centres can reduce their heating expenses drastically. Airplane wings can be coated with this paint in order for defrosting to be simple and quick. Many many applications. This is something we will release in short order.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/koleda/solus-the-most-efficient-radiator-in-the-world/comments?comment=UHJvamVjdENvbW1lbnQtMjMzNDMyMjI%3D

[FrankBuss]

Interesting comment about their video (which you can see here) : If you compare the power strip at 1:50 with 2:17, it is different. They started the test with the two row power strip, and then suddenly after 24 hours it changed to a one row power strip. When they did the test with the electric radiator, it changed again to the two row power strip. I didn't noticed this when I watched the video, I should look more careful when I watch scam videos.

It is meaningless anyway without a temperature chart, as already discussed, but interesting that they screwed up the fake. Maybe they don't even have a prototype which can heat the room, no matter how long it is used.

[mikerj]

The amazing thing about this is that even if you drill a hole through this paint, the electricity will flow around the hole and the heating continues uninterrupted.

Amazing!   

[StillTrying]

A little bit of excitement with the graphene sludge heaters.

"The unit exploded last night and sent prices of glass on my floor."

"Yesterday the heater shattered into many tiny pieces – it was ON and thank god nobody was anywhere near the thing. I know the heater was ON since the app said it was on all day. The thing just shattered and left a pile of glass on the ground – the metal frame was still secure on the wall and there were 2 metal strips with lots of glass stuck on them – I assume these are the heating strips."

"one of my heater just exploded whilst we’re watching tv it was scary and very loud!
And we can hear it cracking even after unplugging it from the main."

www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-plus-the-radiator-of-the-future#/comments

[coppercone2]

glad to hear my intuition about the product was right, but I feel bad for those endangered.

[EEVblog]

A little bit of excitement with the graphene sludge heaters.

"The unit exploded last night and sent prices of glass on my floor."

"Yesterday the heater shattered into many tiny pieces – it was ON and thank god nobody was anywhere near the thing. I know the heater was ON since the app said it was on all day. The thing just shattered and left a pile of glass on the ground – the metal frame was still secure on the wall and there were 2 metal strips with lots of glass stuck on them – I assume these are the heating strips."

"one of my heater just exploded whilst we’re watching tv it was scary and very loud!
And we can hear it cracking even after unplugging it from the main."

www.indiegogo.com/projects/solus-plus-the-radiator-of-the-future#/comments

Not just one, but multiple reports! 

[madires]

That sounds like a serious product safety issue. Solus owners should be , and Solus too for not doing their homework properly. Many countries have product safety laws holding the manufacturer responsible for any damages caused by an unsafe product.