EEVblog #1186 - Solus Graphene Heater Kickstarter BUSTED!

[Muttley Snickers]

They should combine these two elements, and then we would have, wait for it.....






Graphene Freakin' Solar Roadways!

[EEVblog]

Kinda a follow-up, but more a general tutorial:

[EEVblog]

More comments

[mc172]

They are wrong about the kettle heating element instantly cooling down. It wouldn't, its rate of change would decrease smoothly towards zero change, aka the peak temperature, and then the rate would increase equally smoothly in the direction of cooling.

[bitwelder]

Good grief:

.

Did they put graphene in their panels or some kind of radioactive material? 

[MT]

=SiliconWizard link=topic=172401.msg2236977#msg2236977 date=1551579173]
Looking at this company for instance:
https://www.theglobalgraphenegroup.com/thermal-paste
looks like the form of graphene as a paste is typically used as thermal paste. I can see how it has high thermal conductivity, but I'm not sure how it would act as an heating element at this point (but I must admit I haven't looked at Solus' claims extensively as the 95% off was already hilarious.)

Strange how the definition of one single atom layer of carbons suddenly is misused to turn it into a paste. While it for past 50 years been labeled as graphite paste. Perhaps sales goes up?! The Noble price in 2010 for graphene:
https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/physics/2010/press-release/

Well, techically, graphite is multiple layers of... graphene.
Graphene itself is nothing new, it was theorized in the 60s (or even earlier)? And the term coined in the 80s I think.

Well, technically thats wrong since graphene is a chemical definition of one sheet of one single atom layer, everything else chopped up, pasted,multi layered, whatever is just graphite flakes since it is 3D and in case of carbon is resistive.
So Solaris saying grapehene paste is just dishonest marketing bullshit. 

Graphene defined in 1961-62 by proff Hanns-Peter Boehm.

[MT]

Tjernobyl is a fine example of graphite rods (not graphene rods) pushed in to quickly between uranium pellets creating excessive energy.

Maxim Interbrick is totally immune to quantum physics , a great sign of a fraudster. Besides his weird name.

[SiliconWizard]

That doesn't seem quite true. Graphene pastes (as graphite pastes) are primarily made of flakes, indeed, in suspension, pretty much as many other kinds of pastes AFAIK. What exactly are one-layer flakes and how they are produced, I don't know. Not my field.

One can find an article studying some of their properties here: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlepdf/2018/cp/c8cp02196a

AFAIK again, current uses of graphene in many projects is actually in the form of pastes. Whether this really makes sense or gives a clear benefit is kinda outside of my area of expertise, I'm not a chemist, but there are numerous scientific articles out there, some apparently published through reputable journals.

The fact that the compound itself seems to exist (as being defined by flakes in suspension and whatever it really is good for) doesn't make Solus' claims any more relevant for all the reasons exposed in this thread. It seems to defy basic laws of physics.

[tszaboo]

Good grief:

That is a terrible answer indeed, completely not understanding physics.
They lost all credibility after this.

[darrellg]

Is there really no comeback against scammers and/or fantasists on Kickstarter?

Yes, you an report it, but it has to be completely obvious to the non-technical reviewer at KS, or the floods of reports has to be so overwhelming that they have no choice.

Challenge accepted. I reported it.

[aram]

Kickstarter responded... not:

[darrellg]

I got the same response. Apparently obeying the laws of thermodynamics is not one of Kickstarter's rules.

[nixxon]

Interesting Graphene recap video (with an impressive 10,004,268 views):
 

[MT]

That doesn't seem quite true. Graphene pastes (as graphite pastes) are primarily made of flakes, indeed, in suspension, pretty much as many other kinds of pastes AFAIK. What exactly are one-layer flakes and how they are produced, I don't know. Not my field.

Thats why you draw the wrong conclusions that graphene is a paste who cant be "per the definition" it got back in 1961. Paste is 3 D graphene is 2 D.

AFAIK again, current uses of graphene in many projects is actually in the form of pastes. Whether this really makes sense or gives a clear benefit is kinda outside of my area of expertise, I'm not a chemist, but there are numerous scientific articles out there, some apparently published through reputable journals.

There are no such thing as reputable journalists only fake news.

The fact that the compound itself seems to exist (as being defined by flakes in suspension and whatever it really is good for)

as said already the definition of graphene is that of a single layer of carbon atoms, cut that sheet up and its not graphene anymore, this per the definition of graphene. But then comes the question how small or large has a sheet of graphene to be to be called graphene?

[EEVblog]

My spidey sense is getting that astroturfing tingly feeling

[EEVblog]

Kickstarter aren't going to do anything about Solus

[EEVblog]

And another response:

[StillTrying]

Kickstarter Trust & Safety.

How can making 100% false claims, and using nonsense "190 Watts per hour" not be against KS rules, are they admitting false claims are OK.

[EEVblog]

Kickstarter Trust & Safety.
How can making 100% false claims, and using nonsense "190 Watts per hour" not be against KS rules, are they admitting false claims are OK.

They don't have anyone technical enough internally to validate this stuff, it's just ruled on by some generic Joe who went to a liberal arts college and formally worked on trust & Safety at Patreon or something.

EDIT: I had to check, there is a job opening:
https://www.kickstarter.com/jobs/trust-and-safety-analyst-risk

[Dr. Frank]

Dave, I'm really thrilled about your latest video, because you nicely explained the Thermodynamics in a very comprehensive manner. 
Even Black Body radiation (Stefan Boltzmann law) was mentioned.

You mentioned several times that producing heat is always 100% efficient.. the thermo dynamical reason is, that all energy forms, like mechanical, electrical, chemical, atomic, may all be transferred in another form, down into heat, which is the last and least valuable one. That's an implication of the 2nd theorem of Thermodynamics, that any form of 'inner energy' will always be transferred irreversibly into heat, or in other other words, entropy is always increased.
If anybody claims, that his heat generating process to be >100%, then he also tries to violate another implication of the 2nd theorem, 'there does not exist a perpetual motion machine of the second kind'.

And that's exactly what SOLUS try to implicate, with their voodoo Graphene, and all their wish-washy statements, that their panel delivers still heat, when switched off.

You have put it right, instead, by pointing out that all such heaters simply store the initially consumed (electrical) energy in their body mass, which of course can be emitted later on.

Frank

[SilverSolder]

Well, if Kickstarter is not taking down obvious scams despite being warned by the engineering/scientific community, we can only conclude that they are in on it and are opening themselves up to class action lawsuits down the road.  All it will take is for a creative lawyer to do the math on this...

[EEVblog]

Well, if Kickstarter is not taking down obvious scams despite being warned by the engineering/scientific community, we can only conclude that they are in on it and are opening themselves up to class action lawsuits down the road.  All it will take is for a creative lawyer to do the math on this...

I expect them to eventually use an excuse like "We don't want to stifle true innovation", and of course the classic "they laughed at the Wright brothers" line.
Maybe not having someone on staff with the knowledge to make a call on technical stuff like this is a deliberate move?

[nctnico]

Well, if Kickstarter is not taking down obvious scams despite being warned by the engineering/scientific community, we can only conclude that they are in on it and are opening themselves up to class action lawsuits down the road.  All it will take is for a creative lawyer to do the math on this...

I expect them to eventually use an excuse like "We don't want to stifle true innovation", and of course the classic "they laughed at the Wright brothers" line.
Maybe not having someone on staff with the knowledge to make a call on technical stuff like this is a deliberate move?

Probably. Doing some calculations on projects and checking if the claims are valid from a legal point of view is a massive job. Still I think Kickstarter will have to do this at some point. Probably they will be forced by government agencies dealing with shares and securities. Larger websites like Facebook, Youtube, Google, etc have large teams dealing with judging which content is appropriate and which is not.

[madires]

From Kickstarter's support pages (https://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees):

If your project is successfully funded, the following fees will be collected from your funding total: Kickstarter’s 5% fee, and payment processing fees (between 3% and 5%). If funding isn’t successful, there are no fees.

[SparkyFX]

Technically, they sell a 300W heater, there is no scam in there.

Even the efficiency claim is kind of correct, not that converting electrical energy to heat can beat 100%, but as that heater has a small mass on its own, it takes less energy to heat to operating temperature, hence the warmup cycle goes faster, should you consider warmup into efficiency calculations.

The problem with this KS campaign is that they claim this to be sufficient for an area of 20m² and redefine the need to heat up the whole mass within that space, not just a single person. This is kind of a legal loophole that no one said what mass is in that room (other than a thermometer). So legally this runs into the question what a customer can expect and the definition of what a living space is.

Now... that 300W won´t do the job is pretty obvious to anyone trying to heat some place and having attended physics in school. Even with a 2kW unit in winter it might be hard.