EEVblog #1227 - The Free Energy Community RESPONDS!

[EEVblog]

The Free Energy Community responds to Dave's #708 - Free Energy Overunity BULLSHIT! video!
Dave and Sagan read a Mailbag letter from a Free Energy aficionado!

[Psi]

The problem here is mostly miscommunication.
When a scientist says "free energy is impossible/BS" they often don't also include "within our current understanding"  because to them this is obvious and doesn't need saying. 

The miscommunication happens when people hear it and think the scientist is stating "Free energy is impossible" as a fact in perpetuity .
This gets under peoples skin as it comes across as very arrogant when that was not the intention.

It is made worse by a small number of scientists who 'do' actually state as fact in perpetuity that "free energy is fake/impossible".
To me if a scientist does this then they are not really a true scientist

[alpher]

Not to mention that we really know what the thing known as "energy" really is.
Do we ?

[daqq]

If the free energy device makers want to prove Dave wrong, they should send him their devices into the mailbag. Given the amount of measurement gear he has, it should be a whoppin success at marketing when Dave, a respected engineer, demonstrates and measures over-unity.

[Brumby]

The fact that you can define a region in space and claim it contains energy is not a surprise and is not in dispute.  It certainly does contain energy - and yes, I will let you include vacuum energy in this consideration.

BUT - there is one tiny question ... How do you access it?

[Fungus]

TLDR version:

The Scientific Method has four steps, not just one.

1) Observation
2) Theory to explain that observation
3) Prediction
4) Experiment

The over-unity people have no observations. Nowhere in the universe can we see energy appearing from nothing so any theories they claim to have are pure speculation (AKA "daydreams").

Making predictions based on daydreams is silly.

Result: They're all stuck in a loop on step (4).

(...trying desperately to create step (1) out of thin air)

[Fungus]

The problem here is mostly miss-communication.
When a scientist says "free energy is impossible/BS" they often don't also include "within our current understanding"  because to them this is obvious and doesn't need saying. 

The miscommunication happens when people hear it and think the scientist is stating "Free energy is impossible"

Strongly disagree.

The problem is that the people making these devices are incapable of comprehending how much real physicists actually know about the universe and how delicately they've measured things these days.

eg. How can anybody google some pictures of (eg.) the Large Hadron Collider or read about LIGO then go out to their sheds and start wrapping transformer wire around sticks while muttering under their breath that the people who built those things are closed-minded idiots.

The "idiots" are well aware that there's harvestable energy all around us. The problem is that they're also aware of where it comes from, how much is available, and how it's completely useless as a practical source of power (ie. there's not enough of it).

and

b) No self-respecting scientist (or engineer) would categorically say it's "impossible", only that it's "very unlikely" (and that no experiment done so far has shown the tiniest hint that it might be possible).

[BravoV]

If the free energy device makers want to prove Dave wrong, they should send him their devices into the mailbag. Given the amount of measurement gear he has, it should be a whoppin success at marketing when Dave, a respected engineer, demonstrates and measures over-unity.

C'mon, don't be that naive, it has been many decades that there is a secret organization that will sabotage/steal/destroy and etc, to any free energy machines ever created on earth.

Trust me, Dave will never ... ever ... get it.

Heck, even Dave got it, how can we trust Dave is not part of that secret evil organization ?


 

[Fungus]

how can we trust Dave is not part of that secret evil organization ?

He's not only a member, he's a high-rank member.

(watch the video closely, you can see the secret facepalm!)

[wilfred]

Well somebody explain this then.

[EEVblog]

The fact that you can define a region in space and claim it contains energy is not a surprise and is not in dispute.  It certainly does contain energy - and yes, I will let you include vacuum energy in this consideration.
BUT - there is one tiny question ... How do you access it?

Easy, you build a little contraption, add some ferrite and other magic stuff and you make a shaky Youtube video showing the results 

[NiHaoMike]

The "idiots" are well aware that there's harvestable energy all around us. The problem is that they're also aware of where it comes from, how much is available, and how it's completely useless as a practical source of power (ie. there's not enough of it).

The amount of harvestable energy in a lot of environments is very large, the problem is that a lot of the time, the cost of extracting that energy is not worth it.

[EEVblog]

Well somebody explain this then.

No need, it's slowing down, so it'll stop in a few more years and you won't have to bother explaining it.

[EEVblog]

Heck, even Dave got it, how can we trust Dave is not part of that secret evil organization ?

Sorry, I've been at the bank, takes so long to cash cheques these days...

[Hole]

It is all about self reflection and Dunning Kruger.

When I sit in my kitchen with a cup of tea and shortbread and then start to think about energy, the universe and all such stuff, I should reflect my education in that field. If I then move into my basement and start gluing magnets and wooden sticks to bicycle wheels and let them spin around to create free energy I might consider that there could have been smarter people than me trying this before.

That said I'm back in me shed writing down my Weltbeherrschungsprojektplan.

[thn788]

If the free energy device makers want to prove Dave wrong, they should send him their devices into the mailbag. Given the amount of measurement gear he has, it should be a whoppin success at marketing when Dave, a respected engineer, demonstrates and measures over-unity.

All of the free energy devices are working perfectly fine as claimed by their manufacturers.

Even assuming that Dave is not part of the global conspiracy working against the "free energy truth", the problem with demonstrating and measuring this, is that all of the measuring devices are built by engineers according to their man-made laws of physics and will therefore always show that the devices are not working properly with respect to these narrow-minded, incomplete laws. 

Don't believe me?

The flat earth community has faced similar discussions in the past and settled them by now. (see e.g. here: https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,1324.msg1312141.html#msg1312141)

I.e.: Dave, you're holding... errr... measuring it wrong! ;-)

[tszaboo]

There is this guy in the garage, playing with magnets and coils, finds something strange. He put together this wheel, turned the magnets just right, and and the wheel keeps on spinning. He shows it to his engineering friend, the guy tells him that he made a mistake, it is not perpetuum mobile. So he builds a bigger one and connects a light bulb to it. The bigger wheel keeps on spinning, and the bulb makes light. He shows it to a dozen people, they tell him that he is cheating and this is impossible. The guy sells his house, builds a 100 meter diameter wheel from the money, connects an induction smelter to the output. Shows it to thousand people, he keeps smelting cars down and the smelter gets warmer and warmer.
Everyone claps their hand, that it is a nice trick, they go home. The guy is devastated. I cannot prove to these people that my perpetuum mobile works. So he walks to the lever to switch it off. The lever is stuck, too much current. The wheel keeps turning and turning, and the smeltery gets warmer and warmer...

10000 light-years away there are two guys in an astronomic  observatory, looking at the screen. One of the guys points at a white blob with all his 4 hands, saying:
"Hey look, a supernova. It wasn't there yesterday."
"Well, there goes another civilization, which didn't realize that wishful thinking can violate the laws of physics."
He takes a sip from his coffee and writes down the time and date into a notebook.

[G7PSK]

There is plenty of free energy out there, around ninety three million miles out there. You just have to Collect it. The person who Makes a device to do  so will make a fortune, Oh dear i just googled it they already make them.

[golden_labels]

I argue, that Sagan’s Perpetual Motion Facepalming machine is not really working. I can clearly see the energy is taken from bullshit letters!

Basketballs are flat too, you can see the proof in the attachment (not my work).

[NiHaoMike]

There is plenty of free energy out there, around ninety three million miles out there. You just have to Collect it. The person who Makes a device to do  so will make a fortune, Oh dear i just googled it they already make them.

That's certainly one of the easier ways, but not the only way. Another way is to drill a few miles directly downwards. You'll eventually reach a point that's plenty hot enough to boil water. And it would work 24/7.

[G7PSK]

There is plenty of free energy out there, around ninety three million miles out there. You just have to Collect it. The person who Makes a device to do  so will make a fortune, Oh dear i just googled it they already make them.

That's certainly one of the easier ways, but not the only way. Another way is to drill a few miles directly downwards. You'll eventually reach a point that's plenty hot enough to boil water. And it would work 24/7.

Checkd that one too, Unfortunately someone has beaten us to it in Iceland. Guess its back to the drawing board.

[nctnico]

There is plenty of free energy out there, around ninety three million miles out there. You just have to Collect it. The person who Makes a device to do  so will make a fortune, Oh dear i just googled it they already make them.

That's certainly one of the easier ways, but not the only way. Another way is to drill a few miles directly downwards. You'll eventually reach a point that's plenty hot enough to boil water. And it would work 24/7.

That is much harder than you think. The problem is that rock is a poor coductor of heat. You'll have to create a huge underground heat exchange surface for geothermal energy to work on a large scale. Also there is risk of earthquakes.

[Bud]

Well somebody explain this then.

Your answer is @2:34
"It is slower than before, presumably its mysterious energy source is running down"

[BrianHG]

If the free energy device makers want to prove Dave wrong, they should send him their devices into the mailbag. Given the amount of measurement gear he has, it should be a whoppin success at marketing when Dave, a respected engineer, demonstrates and measures over-unity.

Awhile back, I wanted to send Dave such a spoof device just for fun, however, there does not exist a dense enough shoe-box sized battery technology for me to create such a puzzle device which would seem to keep on dishing out electricity causing Dave to scratch his head for the goal of a continuous year of operation before the battery would finally die driving a 100 watt load or bulb.

OK, maybe a nuclear therm-isotope generator, but, I would have problems affording that and that would still be around 10 larger than 1 shoe box, but, it would last over 25 years...

[james_s]

There's lots of free energy out there, most of it comes to us from the sun. The thing commonly called "free energy" involves getting more out of a system that is going in and I'm not sure why people have a hard time comprehending that this is not possible, it's just not how the universe works. When someone thinks they've discovered something that is over-unity they generally are overlooking something or not measuring correctly, and their belief that it works is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world works.

As far as ludicrous claims of free energy devices being stamped out and covered up by the energy industry, consider the hugely wealthy and powerful entertainment and software industries have barely made a dent in the rampant content piracy, it's virtually impossible to stop information and actually cover anything up for long.

[floobydust]

Cold fusion is a good intersection of pseudo-science and hope. Patents not being granted, funding cut off, people are still keeping a myth going.
All you need is a thermocouple channel to read a few degrees higher than the others. Strange... the results can never be reproduced. It must be all the negative energy from disbelievers They could try using an IR thermal camera...

“I see that this method of obtaining energy is promising, it is real and humanity needs it. Humanity needs to tame the energy of the Sun on Earth. This is cold fusion.” https://coldfusionnow.org/blog
Framing the dynamics of the Mizuno breakthrough

Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics, what they are saying and the fact they have not been disproven despite decades of false claims.

[Fungus]

Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics,

Wrong.

Free energy people question whether they're really laws or not. Quoting "laws" at them will achieve nothing.

[TERRA Operative]

Heck, even Dave got it, how can we trust Dave is not part of that secret evil organization ?


 

To paraphrase a certain late sicilian who met his demise in a battle of wits, Dave is Australian, and we all know Australians are not to be trusted.

[Psi]

I think there is plenty of blame to go around.

Free energy nuts going on and on about things they just don't know anything about.
And
Scientists who don't understand that they are in a position of authority and should not be saying things like "that's impossible".  In fact I can't think of two works more unscientific than  "That's impossible"

[EEVblog]

Scientists who don't understand that they are in a position of authority and should not be saying things like "that's impossible".  In fact I can't think of two works more unscientific than  "That's impossible"

Some things do warrant that wording though. Although you could argue there is always a better way to word it.
If scientists and engineers had to start every response with "Well, it's not impossible, but..." you'd be whacking moles forever.
They say it's good to be open minded, but not so open your brains fall out.
Well, you could say it's good to be accommodating to ideas, but no so accommodating that you embarrass the profession. 
Sometimes it's best to simply ridicule an idea and call it impossible or whatever.

[nctnico]

Well, you could say it's good to be accommodating to ideas, but no so accommodating that you embarrass the profession. 
Sometimes it's best to simply ridicule an idea and call it impossible or whatever.

Unfortunately that is an extremely large grey area. In my opinion it is better to look if several big companies/universities are seriously funding / working on a similar project to see if a certain kind of new technology has merit or not. The words from a single individual (=opinion)  are usually worth next to nothing. In science usually to most adopted theory is marked as 'truth'.

[james_s]

Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics,

Wrong.

Free energy people question whether they're really laws or not. Quoting "laws" at them will achieve nothing.

It's fine to question the laws, in fact I would encourage doing so. If you claim to have found a way around one of these laws though I expect an extraordinary amount of evidence to back that claim. It needs to be thoroughly studied and the results independently duplicated by someone else, otherwise I'm calling it a scam.

[Fungus]

Well, you could say it's good to be accommodating to ideas, but no so accommodating that you embarrass the profession. 
Sometimes it's best to simply ridicule an idea and call it impossible or whatever.

Unfortunately that is an extremely large grey area. In my opinion it is better to look if several big companies/universities are seriously funding / working on a similar project to see if a certain kind of new technology has merit or not.

Nah. There's plenty of idiots in academia and defense research, too.

Last week's BBC Horizon program ("Project Greenglow") was about funded research into anti-gravity devices. Plenty of quackery there and plenty of people trying to reproduce claimed results based on bad science.

nb. I'm very disappointed in the BBC for broadcasting that program without any sort of debunking or common sense applied. The entire program was based on the premise that gravity is a force and we can make a "gravity shield" when it's been known for 100 years that gravity isn't a force at all, it's a curve in spacetime.

[Fungus]

It's fine to question the laws, in fact I would encourage doing so.

I wouldn't, especially not when it's a case of "A little knowledge..."

To even start to question a law you need very clear evidence that the old one is wrong.

PS: I don't personally expect any radical changes in the laws of physics now. The existing ones simply work too well for them to be completely broken.

The only missing piece at the moment seems to be what we refer to as "dark matter", whatever that turns out to be.

[nctnico]

PS: I don't personally expect any radical changes in the laws of physics now. The existing ones simply work too well for them to be completely broken.

About that... A while ago I watched a documentary about the quantum computer they are building in the Netherlands (unfortunately they didn't make any attempt to explain how it works). The most interesting quote from the documentary was that quantum physics is so strange because our world is strange; not quantum physics.

[rhodges]

... when it's been known for 100 years that gravity isn't a force at all, it's a curve in spacetime.

Maybe if we build a very large steam iron, we could flatten that curve?

[coppercone2]

YOUR POWER GENERATION MACHINES ARE CAUSING DISTURBANCES IN THE WEATHER PATTERNS ON AZEROTH. CEASE YOUR ELECTROMAGNETIC BURGLARY AT ONCE OR FACE INVASION!!!!

[coppercone2]

it also seems that you can make some kind of really nasty thermal weapon with overunity, kind of like get robots to build heaters that are powered by nothing. it would be simple

[borjam]

The problem here is mostly miscommunication.
When a scientist says "free energy is impossible/BS" they often don't also include "within our current understanding"  because to them this is obvious and doesn't need saying. 

The miscommunication happens when people hear it and think the scientist is stating "Free energy is impossible" as a fact in perpetuity .
This gets under peoples skin as it comes across as very arrogant when that was not the intention.

It is made worse by a small number of scientists who 'do' actually state as fact in perpetuity that "free energy is fake/impossible".
To me if a scientist does this then they are not really a true scientist

It depends. I claim that some day we will be able to fly by moving our ears, like wings. Do you think we can't right now because we lack enough knowledge?

[VK3DRB]

Dave, there is FREE energy. I can prove it: A bloke I once worked with lived in a house on street that shared on a municipal boundary in Melbourne, where on one side of the road, residents had never received an electricity power bill. They contacted the electricity company X who said it wasn't in their jurisdiction but to contact electricity company Y. Company Y said the same thing about X. Last time I saw him, he and his neighbours had received about six years worth of FREE energy . I heard that if the problem is finally sorted out, the residents are legally liable to a very large backdated electricity bill.

By the way, a good simple energy puzzle for the non-technical is this: You have a well insulated room. Inside the room is a refrigerator with is fridge door open. Your record the temperature of the room. You switch on the electricity to the fridge by an external switch. You wait 24 hours. Is the room warmer, colder or the same temperature of that which was recorded? Non-technical people will usually say colder or the same temperature.

[Dr. Frank]

F:= U -TS

These are all state variables:

F is the Free Energy (after the physicist Hermann von Helmholtz)
U is an energy reservoir (inner energy)
T is the thermo dynamical temperature (in Kelvin)
S is the entropy

That's a basic definition (not a law) of thermo dynamics.
From the maximum principle of entropy (an experimentally observed and not disproved phenomenon), you can derive in a very general way, that always dF <= 0, i.e. you will always get less energy out of any system than originally was inside.
 
So maybe this term Free Energy is intentionally or un-intentionally mis-used or mis-understood (like the rest of this physics), by these perpetual motion fans.

Frank

[rrinker]

Heck, even Dave got it, how can we trust Dave is not part of that secret evil organization ?


 

To paraphrase a certain late sicilian who met his demise in a battle of wits, Dave is Australian, and we all know Australians are not to be trusted.

 So, never go in against an Australian in a battle of bullshit? 

[BU508A]

It is all about entropy, or, the second law of thermodynamics. dS > 0 is the deeper reason, why perpetuum mobiles aren't possible. Never ever.

If you want to dig a bit deeper in this stuff, I can recommend this book from Roger Penrose: Cycles of Time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycles_of_Time

[SMB784]

There are few things more frustrating to a physicist than claiming that things are possible simply because our understanding of the universe is limited. These assertions are ridiculous on their face.

Nothing is possible until it has been demonstrated to be possible, and to simply assert that something is possible because it hasn't yet been shown to be impossible is ludicrous.

Scientific progress is based on consensus. A scientific discovery is only as significant as the consensus built around it, and consensus is built with continuous, repeated, independent tests of validity. The strength of the assertion is directly proportional to the evidence of it's validity.

Therefore, the idea that over unity energy production is possible simply because it hasn't been shown to be impossible due to our limited understanding of the universe should be dismissed outright, because the consensus that the second law is thermodynamics is valid everywhere in our universe is overwhelming.

Ludwig Boltzmann died to bring you this message.

[EEVblog]

Free energy people do not understand the Laws of thermodynamics,

Wrong.

Free energy people question whether they're really laws or not. Quoting "laws" at them will achieve nothing.

It's fine to question the laws, in fact I would encourage doing so. If you claim to have found a way around one of these laws though I expect an extraordinary amount of evidence to back that claim. It needs to be thoroughly studied and the results independently duplicated by someone else, otherwise I'm calling it a scam.

And that's the trick.
When you have thousands, or tens of thousands of people thinking they have somehow broken the laws, only when analysed it's embarrassing obvious what they have got wrong. Over and over again, countless times. It's no wonder that no credible engineer or scientist will even entertain the idea any more.
As you say, it would need an exceedingly large amount of evidence to even get someone credible to look at it, let alone be at least initially convinced. And then of course repeated by a credible person or group to even get it started to be taken seriously. Or often it requires a large amount of publicity and/or money involved, like say the Steorn Orbo.

It kind of reminds me of the Richard Dawkins response when asked if anyone had ever given an interesting or credible argument for the validity of religion.

[schmitt trigger]

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