EEVblog #1236 - German Solar Freakin' Roadways

[SparkyFX]

It´s an evergreen.

I think the rise of such projects is succumbed by some sales strategy in which the first problem that comes to mind (or is made to come in mind by pointing it out) is somehow adressed, but all the others and the subsequent problems are ignored until it is an inevitable truth. Most people stop after the first one and are somehow struck of this one roadblocker being no problem or accept that someone else in front of them solved this single, hard problem for them.

The makers somehow maintain to stay in this mindset as well or sell it as experimental, low risk venture project, in need of support for their great idea.

Combined with all kinds of tricks to make people agree to some decision you have a perfectly financed bullshit.

As far as i understood it, concepts like this started out as smart roads that just generate the energy for the signaling and marking during the day. Wear would not even be a big problem for the low demand of low energy LEDs. No one here would need it, as the marking on the road is mostly reflective (glass beads embedded on top of the paint) and other ways to dynamically signal (signal/sign bridges) are already in place and paid for. Somehow this all went south and focus was put on the need to get as much solar energy as possible.

[TheHolyHorse]

What if they took all the money spent on this roadways crap and just bought normal solarcells and but them in places that makes sense? Right?
My mistake that is probably a really stupid idea, why the hell would you do that.

These people are on the same level as flat earthers and the free energy people. They are delusional and beyond salvation.
Makes for good comedy tho, gotta see it from the bright side guys

[floobydust]

When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.

So I can understand covering them with steel plates and plastic tarps until politicians and lawyers figure out who pays for the project's failure.
Hint: it's the taxpayer.

[nctnico]

When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.

No. No money has been spend by the government. As Frank Buss found out Solmove gets paid after they deliver a working solar roadway. In the EU governments don't hand out bags of money. That is not allowed by EU regulations. Besides that history has shown that giving companies bags with money makes them lose any competitive edge. In the 70's and 80's many countries tried to save industry by handing out money but this just made things worse because the companies got a 'too big to fail attitude'.

What governments can do is make R&D cheaper by giving tax cuts but in order to receive these companies have to spend money (on personel costs for example) OR buy products / make it easier to buy the products (like tax breaks on electric and hydrogen cars).

[Barny]

Here are two fotos of creative mounted solar panels:

The panels are mounted in that way, that they are on the shadow-side of the roof at 12:00.

They are mountet this way for ca. 5 years and noone seems to have recognised the slight misstake.

The fotos got made yesterday.
Its in Austria next to St. Veit at ca. 1000m above see level.
The little hut is a little decentral hay storage.

I know some other inteligent mounted solar instalations in Austria, which are mouted in the shadow of buildings and / or faceing away from sun 

[floobydust]

When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.

No. No money has been spend by the government.  ...

Solmove did deliver a working solar roadway.  Long enough to get a cheque issued. We don't know Solmove's warranty, if any. There's a chance they got paid before the mess became apparent.
In Canada it is given out as a business tax credit, so money may come in if the project qualifies, months or years after it is completed. Doesn't matter if it was a failure, our government doesn't care about that, they have no means to ascertain business project failures. It's that you did the R&D.

Who is going to pay to remove the 14,400 screws and repair the damaged asphalt?

[nctnico]

When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.

No. No money has been spend by the government.  ...

Solmove did deliver a working solar roadway.  Long enough to get a cheque issued. We don't know Solmove's warranty, if any. There's a chance they got paid before the mess became apparent.

But Solmove didn't got payed yet so this argument is completely moot.

[FrankBuss]

Solmove did deliver a working solar roadway.  Long enough to get a cheque issued. We don't know Solmove's warranty, if any. There's a chance they got paid before the mess became apparent.

According to my information, they didn't get paid. Official answer from the city of Erftstadt (press department) :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/solar-frickin-radweg-erftstadtliblar-(germany)/msg2599665/#msg2599665

My try to translate it to English:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1236-german-solar-freakin-roadways/msg2601441/#msg2601441

Maybe the reason that they didn't get paid is that it never fed energy in the grid, because they forgot to submit some regulatory papers, see the timeline, at least not until February 18, 2019. And March 26 it was already broken. Or maybe there are some competent people in the government who know how to use Google search, and the contract includes some clause that it has to run x months before payment

[floobydust]

Sorry I did not track down the contract. There should be some deterrent to rolling out a project like this, with no prototype testing done. A lucky technicality on filing paperwork seems a bit too informal. Solarways does not get paid but they've also damaged the roadway. I wanted to know what next, it seems the high voltage and fire made a big safety concern.

I fumbled with the press release city of Erftstadt, 190703 Solarradweg bleibt noch länger gesperrt (Solar bike path remains closed for even longer):

"... The city needs to give the solar bike path manufacturer a chance to remedy the defect on the test track. The from the manufacturer planned technical procedure for the remedy of defects is currently the TÜV-Rheinland as an independent reviewing body examined for their suitability. There extensive tests must be made, the city are currently no results in front. Only after approval of a technically flawless solution by the experts, can on-site the defects are eliminated. Therefore, the blocking of the way remains persist."

edit: fixed some translation, and there are no (safety) standards yet for solar roadways. It could be a while, especially since they don't work!

[nctnico]

The document you linked to says nothing about high voltage (Solmove says to use low voltages for safety reasons) or fire hazards.

It only says that the city is relying on TUV to asses any safety issue with the solar road. What these safety issues are isn't specified. Perhaps this information can be requested from the city. I'd assume the safety issues are judged according to existing safety standards required by law.

[floobydust]

Who'd have thought you can get a shock from a solar road?

Firewalking seems like fun, "often used as a rite of passage, as a test of an individual's strength and courage, or in religion as a test of one's faith".

If the fire department had to show up, there was some electrical fire, arcing or carbon tracking. It does happen with rooftop systems.

I don't think any safety standards exist for this yet (solar roadways), let alone when the modules break up and get wet. There are dangers with these, for glass and debris, fire and shock hazard etc.

The document you linked to says nothing about high voltage (Solmove says to use low voltages for safety reasons) or fire hazards.

It was mentioned in one of the Wallway patents. Basically, each module must be under 60V to avoid approvals, yet for a series string... stick your head in the sand it says. The DC bus and interconnects appear to go along the edge of the path. I don't know the system voltage of this installation.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-850-french-wattway-solar-roadways-bullshit/

[StillTrying]

This whole solar roadways thing seems to be a "bullshit job", something that keeps many people employed and busy despite being a pointless project at the core.

Reminds me of this 
We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/133403-we-should-do-away-with-the-absolutely-specious-notion-that

[McBryce]

I live very close to this too. If further photos are needed, I can visit it too, it's about a 15 minutes away. Maybe while they are removing it

McBryce.

[nctnico]

It would be nice to get updates on how this story continues. 

[David Hess]

We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors.

There is some economic justification for that when you consider the cost of someone not employed is commonly crime and the cost of law enforcement and prison or even worse, revolt.

[FrankBuss]

Updates at the end in the first posting of my thread about it, with new photos from today. TL;DR: the city cancelled the contract and Solmove filed a lawsuit against it, and new PVC mats.

[McBryce]

Gesicht-Handfläche! (German Facepalm)

McBryce.