EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on August 08, 2019, 12:55:19 am
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You never go full Brusaw!
Germany has it's own Solar Freakn' Roadways trial, guess the results...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7nbYBcH0tU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7nbYBcH0tU)
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I am shocked, SHOCKED, that you doubt German engineering cannot triumph where everybody else has failed!
I noticed a lack of mechanical and material engineers on the team. These guys just get in the way of progress.
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€784,000 €150,000 for a 90m run! :-DD
These solar roadway projects gotta be a money laundering scheme- the manufacturer, the politicians, the installers, the funding, bullshit marketing... keeps everybody smiling and loading up their pockets.
The manufacturer blames the installers who blame the weather and meanwhile the politicians are putting tarps over it. Unbelievable.
I would guess the interconnects are failing, the module "the surface may be made of glass" I assume it's just cast resin over solar cells and I didn't see any cracked.
In Canada, the winters, ice, frost heaves would trash these. Any water freezing up will kill these with ice-jacking, and sand/silt build up inside that mounting frame.
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€784,000 for a 90m run! :-DD
It was EUR 150,000, see here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/solar-frickin-radweg-erftstadtliblar-(germany)/msg2599665/#msg2599665) for the clarification.
Here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/solar-frickin-radweg-erftstadtliblar-(germany)/) is the start of my posting, with all the photos you can see in Dave's video, and the high resolution versions (linked for each photo).
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Fixed: I took that number from your post as shown in Dave's video. Surely that €150,000 is not including the grants (https://www.zim.de/ZIM/Navigation/DE/Meta/Englisch/englisch.html) to develop the solar modules. I'm wondering where the money is coming from for Solmove, if it's private investors or just government funded. I've never seen so many institutes, "networks" (https://www.multifunktionale-strasse.de) etc. involved in all the hoopla. So this is how Europe thrives, everyone works on "fake" projects?
As a sanity check, I tried some math: Each tile 60x60cm, walkway 90m long and 1.44m wide (24 modules), total about 3,600 tiles and 130m^2. Eight screws each- maybe four of those are for interconnects. A bit much.
So that's €41.67 each, installed- including wine and cheese for everyone ;) €1157 per m^2.
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There is no way the total cost of that trial roadway was only 150,000 euro. This is local government job, lots of 'experts' are involved. A basic kids playground costs almost that much (not including the land) when finished and fully costed. You have town planers, architects, health and safety, drainage, electrical supply, street lighting, websites etc. All this before they even brake ground.
Frank, ask them for a full breakdown of the costs to fully replace a set of traffic lights with pedestrian crossing at a standard 4 way junction.
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I have come to the conclusion that Solar Roadways are just a Public relations stunts designed to attract the public's attention to the so-call green economy or anti-fossil fuel agenda. or CO2 is evil agenda. yes the Solar Roadways do work but only just work. as it's all about Public relations!
the so called save the world from CO2 agenda, even thou CO2 is used by plants. even thou this dodgy 1990s computer modeling made its way into the United Nations and got used to get scientific grants & funding on this dodgy doom & gloom the world end by 2012 scientific theory
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It might be for installation only? Having troubles translating and figuring out all these agencies and funds. It's this EU "European Regional Development Fund" (https://efre.brandenburg.de/cms/detail.php/bb1.c.152602.de) that appears to have paid 80% of the €150,000?
I'm curious what the rip-off price for the solar modules was.
I did small solar projects in Venezuela and the solar panels were always getting stolen by the locals. I had to hide them in the jungle, and thankfully it's so sunny there that losses were not a problem. These solar roadways, I wonder if thieves will realize there's cash on the ground and pawn the tiles.
This whole solar roadways thing seems to be a "bullshit job", (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs) something that keeps many people employed and busy despite being a pointless project at the core.
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It seems to me that there are two basic issues with these solar roadways.
1. The capability of them to withstand the mechanical abuse to which they will subjected
and
2. Their ability to provide sufficient electrical output to make economic sense.
Let's just assume that addressing the mechanical issues is just a matter of time and ask the fundamental question: Do these things make economic sense?
This is the question Dave has been asking from Day 1 - and the answer he has maintained ever since still holds to be the correct one: While there are still other places you can mount solar panels - NO.
Let's not get distracted by the mechanical failure circus - although that is entertaining - the whole concept is waaaay down on the list of viable energy sources.
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This whole solar roadways thing seems to be a "bullshit job", (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs) something that keeps many people employed and busy despite being a pointless project at the core.
Indeed - it's greatest strength seems to be political. Engineering is a very poor second.
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According to the answer I cited, at the moment everything was financed by Solmove. And I think on the webpage or in the interview the Solmove founder said, that he has invested large sums of his own money into this.
I don't think it is the EU fund. They say that the city Erftstadt got EUR 783,000 from the Bundesumweltministerium (Federal Environment Ministry), which funded 90% of multiple projects. Google translation of the official answer, slightly fixed by me:
In addition to the test route "Solar Bike Path" within the framework of the funding project "Climate Protection in Cycling" of the "Federal Ministry for the Environment, Nature Conservation, Building and Nuclear Safety (BUMB)", several building blocks in the "Infrastructure Ring Liblar" have been promoted, such as the barrier-free expansion of the southern area of the promenade, the Construction of a cycle path along the former railway line on the Liblarer See as connection of the station Erftstadt with the Carl-Schurz-Straße, measures of the public relation, as well as the crossing assistance on the Bliesheimer road in the height of the ErftstadtCenters. For all these measures, the city of Erftstadt has received a grant from the Federal Environment Ministry for the proposed project "Infrastructure Ring Liblar - Changing the Mobility Structure" for 783,000 euros, a 90 percent subsidy.
The test track solar bike path including modules, installation of the modules, information tower, counting station and preparatory civil engineering work is expected to cost about 140,000-150,000 €, with a 90 percent funding, the cost of the city at about 14,000-15,000 €.
So far we have not been able to accept the solar cycle path due to the existing damage; it is not our property. So far, only the start-up has invested (high equity, far beyond the support of the Federal Ministry) and continues to work on expanding the solar cycle path.
The coverage of the station RTL, to which you refer, is unfortunately faulty. The infrastructure ring has been completed in the meantime. The short section with about 90 meters solar cycle path is not yet completed.
I asked the press contact, Mrs. Leder, on this (https://www.erftstadt.de/web/rathaus-in-erftstadt/adressen-oeffnungszeiten/dienststellen/10-rathaus/524-dezernat-1) page, with the online contact form.
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This whole solar roadways thing seems to be a "bullshit job", (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs) something that keeps many people employed and busy despite being a pointless project at the core.
Indeed - it's greatest strength seems to be political. Engineering is a very poor second.
yes see \/
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I posted this in youtube comments, but here it goes as well.
At 11:05 of the video look at the left guy on the bike. As he brakes his front wheel locks up.
If he was riding for real and not cameras, meaning a little bit faster, and had to brake because a child jumped in his path, he would have smack his too-big-for-the-not-even-strapped-helmet head right into those hard glassy knobs.
It's raining and the glass is slippery. Who could have known?
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You people are just jealous someone else is making money from all this and it's not you ;)
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Temped to go there, take one piece/tile and send it to the Dave mail in Australia.
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:palm: I don't see how in heaven's name can these engineers expect these things to be on a highway, where a semi truck or even a garbage truck on city streets may on occasion need to slam on the brakes in an emergency. All the tiles on the road would be literally torn to shreds as the multi-ton vehicle skids along. An with electricity there with to aforementioned magic smoke coming out, what do you think would happen there.
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It's a clown world now and doesn't matter if it's a Boeing aircraft or these solar roadways, everyone goes along with it knowing it will crash, and collects a paycheque.
Politicians and investors who don't understand the technology are being sold a fantasy:
"This road is not just a road, but a sensor, communication element, power generator and energy carrier for autonomous, electric vehicles."
"Inductive charging of electric vehicles on traffic routes and thus at the place of consumption".
https://www.multifunktionale-strasse.de (https://www.multifunktionale-strasse.de) Innovation Network.
So you can charge your electric car while driving on the miracle highway :palm:
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still waiting for someone to reinvent the moving sidewalk. that was a highlight of the 1900 World's Fair in Paris
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There are moving walkways in some of the subway stations in Chicago, not sure where else in the world they might be used. Not quite a sidewalk but pretty close. Kind of struck me as the epitome of stereotypical American laziness but they were fun to play on.
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Temped to go there, take one piece/tile and send it to the Dave mail in Australia.
This would be illegal, you shouldn't do this, you and Dave could get problems.
BTW, here (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ov4fPCGtP_gJ:https://background.tagesspiegel.de/donald-mueller-judex+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=de) is some background information of the founder of Solmove. TL;DR: He started his job career as a cameraman, then office manager for a talk show production company. After this he founded a software company which went bankrupt. Then another software company which he had to sell to avoid bankruptcy again, and the new owner fired him. In the interview he says that he dreams about to use his solar modules for railway tracks, airfields and house walls as well.
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BTW, here (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ov4fPCGtP_gJ:https://background.tagesspiegel.de/donald-mueller-judex+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=de) is some background information of the founder of Solmove. TL;DR: He started his job career as a cameraman, then office manager for a talk show production company. After this he founded a software company which went bankrupt. Then another software company which he had to sell to avoid bankruptcy again, and the new owner fired him. In the interview he says that he dreams about to use his solar modules for railway tracks, airfields and house walls as well.
I sense a pattern here. ::)
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So you can charge your electric car while driving on the miracle highway :palm:
Better yet, slap a magnet to your car bottom and induce electricity in the coils under roadways and into the grid.
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There are moving walkways in some of the subway stations in Chicago, not sure where else in the world they might be used. Not quite a sidewalk but pretty close. Kind of struck me as the epitome of stereotypical American laziness but they were fun to play on.
These walkways can be found in other places too. Mostly airports but I've also seen them in subway stations.
BTW, here (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ov4fPCGtP_gJ:https://background.tagesspiegel.de/donald-mueller-judex+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=de) is some background information of the founder of Solmove. TL;DR: He started his job career as a cameraman, then office manager for a talk show production company. After this he founded a software company which went bankrupt. Then another software company which he had to sell to avoid bankruptcy again, and the new owner fired him. In the interview he says that he dreams about to use his solar modules for railway tracks, airfields and house walls as well.
This doesn't surprise me at all. If you look at Solmove's website and go to the team page you'll find they have no engineering staff at all. Lets see how this plays out but it is likely they can't fix the solar cycling road. I'm wondering how Solmove is funded. Perhaps they got a loan from a bank based on the forecast to sell a solar cycling road and paid themselves from this loan. Is there some way to get some financial records?
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This whole solar roadways thing seems to be a "bullshit job", (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs) something that keeps many people employed and busy despite being a pointless project at the core.
Indeed - it's greatest strength seems to be political. Engineering is a very poor second.
yes see \/
[copy that multipanel illustration]
Priceless! I'm hanging this on my wall!!
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You must be young.
That (or very similar) sets of images have been depicting the same example for quite a number of years.
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It´s an evergreen.
I think the rise of such projects is succumbed by some sales strategy in which the first problem that comes to mind (or is made to come in mind by pointing it out) is somehow adressed, but all the others and the subsequent problems are ignored until it is an inevitable truth. Most people stop after the first one and are somehow struck of this one roadblocker being no problem or accept that someone else in front of them solved this single, hard problem for them.
The makers somehow maintain to stay in this mindset as well or sell it as experimental, low risk venture project, in need of support for their great idea.
Combined with all kinds of tricks to make people agree to some decision you have a perfectly financed bullshit.
As far as i understood it, concepts like this started out as smart roads that just generate the energy for the signaling and marking during the day. Wear would not even be a big problem for the low demand of low energy LEDs. No one here would need it, as the marking on the road is mostly reflective (glass beads embedded on top of the paint) and other ways to dynamically signal (signal/sign bridges (https://de.123rf.com/photo_85576223_stau-zeichen-br%C3%BCcke-auf-autobahn-deutsche-autobahn.html)) are already in place and paid for. Somehow this all went south and focus was put on the need to get as much solar energy as possible.
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What if they took all the money spent on this roadways crap and just bought normal solarcells and but them in places that makes sense? Right?
My mistake that is probably a really stupid idea, why the hell would you do that.
These people are on the same level as flat earthers and the free energy people. They are delusional and beyond salvation.
Makes for good comedy tho, gotta see it from the bright side guys :-DD
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When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.
So I can understand covering them with steel plates and plastic tarps until politicians and lawyers figure out who pays for the project's failure.
Hint: it's the taxpayer.
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When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.
No. No money has been spend by the government. As Frank Buss found out Solmove gets paid after they deliver a working solar roadway. In the EU governments don't hand out bags of money. That is not allowed by EU regulations. Besides that history has shown that giving companies bags with money makes them lose any competitive edge. In the 70's and 80's many countries tried to save industry by handing out money but this just made things worse because the companies got a 'too big to fail attitude'.
What governments can do is make R&D cheaper by giving tax cuts but in order to receive these companies have to spend money (on personel costs for example) OR buy products / make it easier to buy the products (like tax breaks on electric and hydrogen cars).
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Here are two fotos of creative mounted solar panels:
[attach=1] [attach=2]
The panels are mounted in that way, that they are on the shadow-side of the roof at 12:00.
They are mountet this way for ca. 5 years and noone seems to have recognised the slight misstake.
The fotos got made yesterday.
Its in Austria next to St. Veit at ca. 1000m above see level.
The little hut is a little decentral hay storage.
I know some other inteligent mounted solar instalations in Austria, which are mouted in the shadow of buildings and / or faceing away from sun :-DD
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When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.
No. No money has been spend by the government. ...
Solmove did deliver a working solar roadway. Long enough to get a cheque issued. We don't know Solmove's warranty, if any. There's a chance they got paid before the mess became apparent.
In Canada it is given out as a business tax credit, so money may come in if the project qualifies, months or years after it is completed. Doesn't matter if it was a failure, our government doesn't care about that, they have no means to ascertain business project failures. It's that you did the R&D.
Who is going to pay to remove the 14,400 screws and repair the damaged asphalt?
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When the solar roadway fails, now what? There is no money allocated to rip them out and re-pave the road.
The funding and grants were all for making this magic roadway, and dollars are all spent.
No. No money has been spend by the government. ...
Solmove did deliver a working solar roadway. Long enough to get a cheque issued. We don't know Solmove's warranty, if any. There's a chance they got paid before the mess became apparent.
But Solmove didn't got payed yet so this argument is completely moot.
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Solmove did deliver a working solar roadway. Long enough to get a cheque issued. We don't know Solmove's warranty, if any. There's a chance they got paid before the mess became apparent.
According to my information, they didn't get paid. Official answer from the city of Erftstadt (press department) :
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/solar-frickin-radweg-erftstadtliblar-(germany)/msg2599665/#msg2599665 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/solar-frickin-radweg-erftstadtliblar-(germany)/msg2599665/#msg2599665)
My try to translate it to English:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1236-german-solar-freakin-roadways/msg2601441/#msg2601441 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1236-german-solar-freakin-roadways/msg2601441/#msg2601441)
Maybe the reason that they didn't get paid is that it never fed energy in the grid, because they forgot to submit some regulatory papers, see the timeline (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/solar-frickin-radweg-erftstadtliblar-(germany)/), at least not until February 18, 2019. And March 26 it was already broken. Or maybe there are some competent people in the government who know how to use Google search, and the contract includes some clause that it has to run x months before payment :)
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Sorry I did not track down the contract. There should be some deterrent to rolling out a project like this, with no prototype testing done. A lucky technicality on filing paperwork seems a bit too informal. Solarways does not get paid but they've also damaged the roadway. I wanted to know what next, it seems the high voltage and fire made a big safety concern.
I fumbled with the press release city of Erftstadt, 190703 Solarradweg bleibt noch länger gesperrt (Solar bike path remains closed for even longer): (https://www.downloads-erftstadt.de/presseinfos/presseinfos-2019)
"... The city needs to give the solar bike path manufacturer a chance to remedy the defect on the test track. The from the manufacturer planned technical procedure for the remedy of defects is currently the TÜV-Rheinland as an independent reviewing body examined for their suitability. There extensive tests must be made, the city are currently no results in front. Only after approval of a technically flawless solution by the experts, can on-site the defects are eliminated. Therefore, the blocking of the way remains persist."
edit: fixed some translation, and there are no (safety) standards yet for solar roadways. It could be a while, especially since they don't work!
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The document you linked to says nothing about high voltage (Solmove says to use low voltages for safety reasons) or fire hazards.
It only says that the city is relying on TUV to asses any safety issue with the solar road. What these safety issues are isn't specified. Perhaps this information can be requested from the city. I'd assume the safety issues are judged according to existing safety standards required by law.
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Who'd have thought you can get a shock from a solar road?
Firewalking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewalking) seems like fun, "often used as a rite of passage, as a test of an individual's strength and courage, or in religion as a test of one's faith".
If the fire department had to show up, there was some electrical fire, arcing or carbon tracking. It does happen with rooftop systems.
I don't think any safety standards exist for this yet (solar roadways), let alone when the modules break up and get wet. There are dangers with these, for glass and debris, fire and shock hazard etc.
The document you linked to says nothing about high voltage (Solmove says to use low voltages for safety reasons) or fire hazards.
It was mentioned in one of the Wallway patents. (https://patents.google.com/patent/FR3073106A1/en) Basically, each module must be under 60V to avoid approvals, yet for a series string... stick your head in the sand it says. The DC bus and interconnects appear to go along the edge of the path. I don't know the system voltage of this installation.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-850-french-wattway-solar-roadways-bullshit/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-850-french-wattway-solar-roadways-bullshit/)
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This whole solar roadways thing seems to be a "bullshit job", (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs) something that keeps many people employed and busy despite being a pointless project at the core.
Reminds me of this :)
We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/133403-we-should-do-away-with-the-absolutely-specious-notion-that (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/133403-we-should-do-away-with-the-absolutely-specious-notion-that)
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I live very close to this too. If further photos are needed, I can visit it too, it's about a 15 minutes away. Maybe while they are removing it :D
McBryce.
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It would be nice to get updates on how this story continues. :popcorn:
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We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors.
There is some economic justification for that when you consider the cost of someone not employed is commonly crime and the cost of law enforcement and prison or even worse, revolt.
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Updates at the end in the first posting of my thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/solar-frickin-radweg-erftstadtliblar-(germany)/) about it, with new photos from today. TL;DR: the city cancelled the contract and Solmove filed a lawsuit against it, and new PVC mats.
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Gesicht-Handfläche! (German Facepalm) :D
McBryce.