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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on August 15, 2019, 03:37:22 am

Title: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 15, 2019, 03:37:22 am
You think a $2 multimeter is bad?
A review of the Kickstarter & Indiegogo Vion bluetooth multimeter that promised the world.
Grab your popcorn for a master class in idiotic product design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k04p4UgS6Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k04p4UgS6Y)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: johnlsenchak on August 15, 2019, 04:50:54 am

Clearly this crap  was  designed to scam people into thinking that this device  would have the  same accuracy  and resolution of  a name brand  Multi-meter.


They should have  done  a marketing  wank video on testing  the voltage  on the cells on one of those solar roadways  8) 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on August 15, 2019, 05:07:11 am
I was curious about how bad this was, thanks for looking. Would've loved to have seen if it held up to higher voltage, and higher frequency, AC. I bet you can get it to let the smoke out then.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: madires on August 15, 2019, 10:13:23 am
I see, the data logging feature is meant to log data about you. >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: firewalker on August 15, 2019, 10:47:03 am
This is a 50+ device? LOL! TBH it's better it doesn;t try to measure current. IMHO no DMM without dedicated current input should.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Barny on August 15, 2019, 11:43:22 am
The main purpose of this DMM is Go Show young students how to run a kickstarter the wrong way.
And how mit to design a product.

My theorie is that this DMM is a theoretical project of a groop of design students which got build in reality.

EDIT:
I know why this DMM isnt working.
Dave as a profesional isnt wearing a mustache.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on August 15, 2019, 02:50:24 pm
Really enjoyed the video.   Too bad that transient generator you salvaged couldn't have found a spot in the video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: nwvlab on August 15, 2019, 03:17:56 pm
Nice video!

Not sure if you spotted this, but at timestamp 30:18 it seems to me that an EMductor, err...I mean inductor, is not soldered on its pads... (I guess part of the antenna matching network)

cheers :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: floobydust on August 15, 2019, 06:55:36 pm
It's a blatant rip off, trying to be a simplified Mooshimeter (https://moosh.im/mooshimeter/Mooshimeter) - (I think it is the original) Bluetooth+Smartphone app 2-ch 24-bit A/D multimeter. That Kickstarter, which went through FCC and 61010 approvals, was many years ago...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: electrode on August 15, 2019, 10:10:48 pm
I remember some of our undergraduate engineering team projects, and there would always be a guy on the team who would think of things like this.

Engineering is about finding elegant solutions to problems – with simplest often being better (not always). People who just "don't get it", seem to think it's about features. At minimum, this thing would need semi-accurate DC volts and resistance with an OLED screen and wireless charging to even make it slightly useful. Having to pair it to an app just makes it too much of a pain in the arse.

Undoing a screw to charge a device? What.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: David Hess on August 16, 2019, 04:02:59 am
I fail to see any advantages over the common "multimeter built into one probe with display" type multimeters.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 16, 2019, 09:44:49 am
I fail to see any advantages over the common "multimeter built into one probe with display" type multimeters.

Data logging and voice.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Brumby on August 16, 2019, 10:51:22 am
I fail to see any advantages over the common "multimeter built into one probe with display" type multimeters.

It has Bluetooth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_lf8_pxg2Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_lf8_pxg2Q)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Zbig on August 16, 2019, 06:16:04 pm
Next up on Kickstarter, by the team behind Vion: a digital tape measure with a single LED that turns either red or green, depending on whether the thing you're measuring is of the correct length or not. Affiliate links to trusted "enlarge your penis in 5 minutes with this simple trick" partners might or might not find place in the accompanying mobile app.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: thm_w on August 16, 2019, 08:20:36 pm
It's a blatant rip off, trying to be a simplified Mooshimeter (https://moosh.im/mooshimeter/Mooshimeter) - (I think it is the original) Bluetooth+Smartphone app 2-ch 24-bit A/D multimeter. That Kickstarter, which went through FCC and 61010 approvals, was many years ago...

Its the same idea, but hardly a blatant ripoff. Almost nothing in the physical design or look and feel of the app is the same.

Anyway, it looks like mm have stopped production, its marked as sold out on their page and "obsolete" on digikey. I have one and its very useful for remote logging, but not day to day use.
Having a rechargeable version would be good but: it would cost a lot more, and would have been hell to pass certifications (as they stated any cover or port protection has to be open during high voltage testing, this is why the SD slot had to be covered up).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: nctnico on August 16, 2019, 08:37:07 pm
Wow they just re-invented a Duspol !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 16, 2019, 10:05:52 pm
Wow they just re-invented a Duspol !

...but with no screen, an awkward cable, bad battery, and unreliable measurements.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: floobydust on August 16, 2019, 10:28:40 pm
It's a blatant rip off, trying to be a simplified Mooshimeter (https://moosh.im/mooshimeter/Mooshimeter) - (I think it is the original) Bluetooth+Smartphone app 2-ch 24-bit A/D multimeter. That Kickstarter, which went through FCC and 61010 approvals, was many years ago...

Its the same idea, but hardly a blatant ripoff. Almost nothing in the physical design or look and feel of the app is the same.

Anyway, it looks like mm have stopped production, its marked as sold out on their page and "obsolete" on digikey. I have one and its very useful for remote logging, but not day to day use.
Having a rechargeable version would be good but: it would cost a lot more, and would have been hell to pass certifications (as they stated any cover or port protection has to be open during high voltage testing, this is why the SD slot had to be covered up).

Too bad they seem to have abandoned it, two channels for V, I is very handy.
pic related, wireless multimeters are useful for measurements in unsafe or inconvenient areas. I prefer something hands-on though.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: SilverSolder on August 17, 2019, 10:18:36 am

This looks like fraud...   the objective could have been to get the Kickstarter/Indiegogo money and run!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 17, 2019, 12:59:28 pm

This looks like fraud...   the objective could have been to get the Kickstarter/Indiegogo money and run!

Nah, they manufactured something and wrote half an app.

Never attribute to malice things which can be adequately explained by incompetance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Muttley Snickers on August 17, 2019, 01:02:56 pm
This looks like fraud...   the objective could have been to get the Kickstarter/Indiegogo money and run!

I seriously doubt that they were out to scam or defraud anyone otherwise they would not have included their names and faces in the marketing material. In many aspects the final product does not even closely resemble the device that they originally promoted and I would speculate that perhaps they had internal conflicts, this would explain all the delays and uncertainty.

vionlab.co.kr (http://vionlab.co.kr)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTvaV0uMVfs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTvaV0uMVfs)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: nctnico on August 17, 2019, 01:06:03 pm
Never attribute to malice things which can be adequately explained by incompetance.
I like this quote!  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 17, 2019, 01:06:19 pm
I feel the people calling fraud may be the same kind of people who produce these kinds of products as they both grossly underestimate what goes into the development of a successful product. Failure is not the same as fraud.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: madires on August 17, 2019, 01:43:59 pm
Wow they just re-invented a Duspol !

The real deal for mains related work. And it has a proper CAT rating (CAT IV 1000V).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: madires on August 17, 2019, 01:56:51 pm
I feel the people calling fraud may be the same kind of people who produce these kinds of products as they both grossly underestimate what goes into the development of a successful product. Failure is not the same as fraud.

Let's call it croudfunded education. ;) The backers help some team to gain first experience in designing and producing a product. When the team just managed to build an arduino blinky, it will be also educational for the backers. ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: German_EE on August 17, 2019, 04:49:32 pm
I was thinking about the LED thing, and yes, I know that they got it badly wrong. How about this for an idea:

RED          Voltage 1v-2v   Single 1.5v cells
ORANGE  Voltage 8v-12v  9v cells and car electrics
YELLOW   Voltage 20v-30v  Truck electrics
GREEN     Voltage 45v-55v  Telecoms
BLUE        Voltage over 100v

Blinking LED = AC

Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 17, 2019, 05:54:02 pm
I was thinking about the LED thing, and yes, I know that they got it badly wrong. How about this for an idea:

RED          Voltage 1v-2v   Single 1.5v cells
ORANGE  Voltage 8v-12v  9v cells and car electrics
YELLOW   Voltage 20v-30v  Truck electrics
GREEN     Voltage 45v-55v  Telecoms
BLUE        Voltage over 100v

Oh, yeah. Now it's a device I want to own.

(not)

I dunno. When I want to measure something I don't want to have to dismantle it and sit for half an hour while it charges the battery, then spend 10 minutes downloading an app, creating an online account and trying to pair it to my phone. Not when AA batteries exist and custom LCD screens are cheaper then bluetooth modules.

(What if the whole family use it? Do they all have to have separate accounts?)

I imagine V2 of this will have WiFi and post the readings directly to your Facebook timeline. :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Zbig on August 17, 2019, 06:03:49 pm
I was thinking about the LED thing, and yes, I know that they got it badly wrong. How about this for an idea:

RED          Voltage 1v-2v   Single 1.5v cells
ORANGE  Voltage 8v-12v  9v cells and car electrics
YELLOW   Voltage 20v-30v  Truck electrics
GREEN     Voltage 45v-55v  Telecoms
BLUE        Voltage over 100v

Blinking LED = AC

How about that: an LCD displaying an actual number which directly corresponds to the value being measured! Radical, I know ;D It's cheap, too. Also, unloaded (open circuit) voltage is pretty much meaningless when assessing state of charge of most consumer primary batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 18, 2019, 01:37:53 am
Anyway, it looks like mm have stopped production, its marked as sold out on their page and "obsolete" on digikey. I have one and its very useful for remote logging, but not day to day use.
Having a rechargeable version would be good but: it would cost a lot more, and would have been hell to pass certifications (as they stated any cover or port protection has to be open during high voltage testing, this is why the SD slot had to be covered up).
Where I think they really failed is their insistence on using an oddball BLE adapter to connect to it using Python instead of the standard Bluetooth chip that is in almost every modern connected device nowadays. I would use my Mooshimeter a lot more if I could bring a measurement window on my PC screen, complete with the ability to log measurements as needed. (Workaround: Nexus 7 with failed touch screen remote controlled from PC using scrcpy.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: David Hess on August 18, 2019, 03:41:00 am
How about that: an LCD displaying an actual number which directly corresponds to the value being measured! Radical, I know ;D It's cheap, too. Also, unloaded (open circuit) voltage is pretty much meaningless when assessing state of charge of most consumer primary batteries.

There are lots of good and inexpensive pen style multimeters although I did a search and none that I found included Bluetooth.

The unloaded voltage for most primary cells actually is a pretty good measurement of cell state if you are testing to see if something failed due to low charge.  1.2 volts on an alkaline cell unambiguously means depleted.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 18, 2019, 12:43:09 pm
[attachimg=2]
How about that: an LCD displaying an actual number which directly corresponds to the value being measured! Radical, I know ;D It's cheap, too. Also, unloaded (open circuit) voltage is pretty much meaningless when assessing state of charge of most consumer primary batteries.
The unloaded voltage for most primary cells actually is a pretty good measurement of cell state if you are testing to see if something failed due to low charge.  1.2 volts on an alkaline cell unambiguously means depleted.

These cost $2 and don't need no steenkin' bluetooth (or prior-knowledge about "primary cell voltage").

Just sayin'  :popcorn:

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: David Hess on August 18, 2019, 10:23:47 pm
[attachimg=2]
The unloaded voltage for most primary cells actually is a pretty good measurement of cell state if you are testing to see if something failed due to low charge.  1.2 volts on an alkaline cell unambiguously means depleted.

These cost $2 and don't need no steenkin' bluetooth (or prior-knowledge about "primary cell voltage").

Yes, but using an expensive and inscrutable to the uninitiated multimeter to test 10 cent batteries makes me a wizard.

Incidentally, using the thermocouple temperature probe on the same multimeter for cooking means my friends never ask me to cook anymore.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: thm_w on August 19, 2019, 08:13:43 pm
Where I think they really failed is their insistence on using an oddball BLE adapter to connect to it using Python instead of the standard Bluetooth chip that is in almost every modern connected device nowadays. I would use my Mooshimeter a lot more if I could bring a measurement window on my PC screen, complete with the ability to log measurements as needed. (Workaround: Nexus 7 with failed touch screen remote controlled from PC using scrcpy.)

Damn I didn't even think about that, being able to access it via PC would have been a huge bonus. I see some options for linux but they are not exactly plug and play (https://github.com/ghtyrant/libsooshi).

I was thinking about the LED thing, and yes, I know that they got it badly wrong. How about this for an idea:

RED          Voltage 1v-2v   Single 1.5v cells
ORANGE  Voltage 8v-12v  9v cells and car electrics
YELLOW   Voltage 20v-30v  Truck electrics
GREEN     Voltage 45v-55v  Telecoms
BLUE        Voltage over 100v

Blinking LED = AC

That won't work because then you can't tell if a battery is "good" or not, unless you had multiple LEDs which just makes it confusing. Emphasis on the quotes.

Has to be something like:
0.8-1.1V = red, 1.1-1.7V = green
7-8.5V = red, 8.5-9.5V = green, etc
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: amyk on August 20, 2019, 02:20:11 am
I don't see a separate ADC, so it's probably using the 12-bit one in the nRF52832 itself. No obvious voltage reference either, might just be using the CPU VDD itself. Even I know that's a big no-no, and I don't do analog stuff much either.

Even a '7106 out of a $2 830-style meter would be far more accurate.

This is what happens when non-engineers design products... |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: VK3DRB on August 22, 2019, 12:26:09 pm
Yep, it is pretty bad. I suspect Vion has no sensible design process, like design reviews, design verification testing, risk analysis etc. Typically, a good electronic engineer would spend at least half of his design effort focused on mitigating product failures and regulatory compliance requirements like safety, EMC etc. A good paradigm for an electronic design engineer is to assume everyone is out to sue him or his company and if anyone dies due to his design, he will be in jail sharing a cell with Big Bubba. 

Some major companies have also made ridiculous products. One example is the infamous IBM backup/restore utility for IBM DOS to backup user files and programs onto diskette and restore them later. They made it so that you can only restore you files on the SAME DOS version. So if you were upgrading from DOS 4.0 to Dos 4.1, the tool simply did not restore (after you had formatted the HDD), but shows an error message on the screen stating wrong DOS version. EPIC FAIL! XCOPY was an alternative, but you have to make sure you has gotten everything manually including CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT, and the average dingbat PC user would not have heard of XCOPY.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: nctnico on August 23, 2019, 10:54:57 am
I don't see a separate ADC, so it's probably using the 12-bit one in the nRF52832 itself. No obvious voltage reference either, might just be using the CPU VDD itself. Even I know that's a big no-no, and I don't do analog stuff much either.
You don't always need a voltage reference for doing precision stuff with an ADC in a microcontroller. The reference can also be a precision resistor.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: thm_w on August 23, 2019, 09:29:39 pm
You don't always need a voltage reference for doing precision stuff with an ADC in a microcontroller. The reference can also be a precision resistor.

Could you give an example please? I assume not multi-slope or similar.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: YU7C on September 27, 2019, 09:11:51 am
You think a $2 multimeter is bad?
A review of the Kickstarter & Indiegogo Vion bluetooth multimeter that promised the world.
Grab your popcorn for a master class in idiotic product design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k04p4UgS6Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k04p4UgS6Y)

Sorry Dave, after this review I can't trust anymore on your expertise of products!

Until you start wearing a mustache!    :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #1238 - Vion: The World's Worst Multimeter
Post by: CChin254 on July 31, 2020, 10:42:23 pm
IC Identification of this Device: