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Online EEVblog

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EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« on: December 11, 2019, 10:25:04 pm »
A 100kW wind generator in only 7sqm? Less than 2% the size of traditional wind turbines!
Basic physics and the whiteboard to the rescue!

A look at the claims of the AmericanWind WindWall "turbine" wind power generator.
http://americanwindinc.com/our-products-3/advanced-windwall/
And a Wind Power 101 tutorial on how wind turbine calculations work and pesky limitation of Betz's law.

Subscribe to the EEVblog on LBRY and help beat Barnacules!
https://lbry.tv/@eevblog:7

The Patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9331534B2/en
Failed ducted wind turbine projects: http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=637

Wind powered car! https://alcse.org/the-american-wind-powered-car/

A commercial efficient 100kW wind generator: https://en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbines/1682-hummer-h25.0-100kw

Fluxgate Condensor T-Shirt: https://teespring.com/shop/fluxgatecondenser?pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front

 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2019, 11:35:11 pm »
There's no need for sophisticated scams these days, any bonkers non-working idea can be enough to get awards and funding. :horse: |O

https://www.europeanceo.com/industry-outlook/microcubes-are-revolutionising-the-wind-energy-market-heres-how
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2019, 11:45:17 pm »
There's no need for sophisticated scams these days, any bonkers non-working idea can be enough to get awards and funding. :horse: |O

https://www.europeanceo.com/industry-outlook/microcubes-are-revolutionising-the-wind-energy-market-heres-how


There are some videos on Youtube so anyone interested can hear the story straight from the horses mouth. The first video even shows they have patent 9331534B2 for those sufficiently interested. I gave it a brief skim but I find patents hard to digest. The article you linked basically says what he says in the videos so it was probably drawn from the same marketing blurb. But sometimes it helps to hear someone speak for themselves.




There are  more but they're easy enough to find.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 11:48:09 pm by wilfred »
 

Offline BradC

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 12:14:23 am »
There are some videos on Youtube so anyone interested can hear the story straight from the horses mouth. The first video even shows they have patent 9331534B2 for those sufficiently interested. I gave it a brief skim but I find patents hard to digest. The article you linked basically says what he says in the videos so it was probably drawn from the same marketing blurb. But sometimes it helps to hear someone speak for themselves.

As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2019, 12:39:01 am »
As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".

He seems convinced that the car can drive forever without needing charging, so he's totally bonkers. :palm:
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline MT

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2019, 12:52:07 am »
When is the line crossed from being misguided and outright a snake oil salesman. :popcorn:
 
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Offline ziggyfish

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2019, 04:04:25 am »
Can I disagree with your formula?

Your last calculation is based on one big turbine that is 7.4 meters squared in area.

If you take one of those turbines being:

Size: 40in x 24in x 26in
Wind Speed: 45 Knots ( or 23.15 meters per second )
0.5*1.2041*0.231775*(23.15^3) = 1,731 W (1021.29 W @ Betz Law)

Its an array of 10x10 so = 1731 * 10 * 10 = 173,121 W (102,141 W @ @ Betz Law)

your calculation:

0.5*1.2041*7.4*(23.15^3) = 55,273.53 W
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2019, 04:27:19 am »
There are some videos on Youtube so anyone interested can hear the story straight from the horses mouth. The first video even shows they have patent 9331534B2 for those sufficiently interested. I gave it a brief skim but I find patents hard to digest. The article you linked basically says what he says in the videos so it was probably drawn from the same marketing blurb. But sometimes it helps to hear someone speak for themselves.

As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".

Yeah. That was a bit odd. I looked around a bit and he does somewhere acknowledge losses which was good. So he's not into overunity. But he does sail pretty close to the wind (Ouch! that was a bad pun) when making claims about the range you could expect from the wind boosted electric car. Since I'm not an engineer and haven't seen his results I'll remain skeptical. But I did immediately think of Wile E. Coyote in the road runner cartoons with a fan powered sailboard.

Just listening to him in the videos I am disinclined to want to demonise him just for cheap laughs. He seemed sincere and genuine. Even if I have my doubts.
 

Offline johnlsenchak

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2019, 04:30:39 am »


I'm afraid  as long as people are foolish enough to believe these kinds of B.S. but  don't  do the math or understand the physics  behind  these new emerging technologies,    they will continue to be taken  advantage of  by these swindles 

Dave should have  been a  algebra  or physics  high school teacher  he would have  been    good at it
John Senchak "Daytona  Beach  Florida "
 jls (at)  antihotmail.com   http://www.antihotmail.com
https://www.facebook.com/john.senchak.1
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2019, 04:36:05 am »
Dave should have  been a  algebra  or physics  high school teacher  he would have  been    good at it

Nope, I suck at math.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2019, 04:42:06 am »
Can I disagree with your formula?

Your last calculation is based on one big turbine that is 7.4 meters squared in area.

If you take one of those turbines being:

Size: 40in x 24in x 26in
Wind Speed: 45 Knots ( or 23.15 meters per second )
0.5*1.2041*0.231775*(23.15^3) = 1,731 W (1021.29 W @ Betz Law)

Its an array of 10x10 so = 1731 * 10 * 10 = 173,121 W (102,141 W @ @ Betz Law)

your calculation:

0.5*1.2041*7.4*(23.15^3) = 55,273.53 W

My calculation is based on how much power is in the wind of that area, it has nothing to do with the type of turbine it's going into.
The point is to show, as a first order, how much power is available in the wind and if the spec exceeds that.
 

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2019, 04:44:02 am »
As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".
He seems convinced that the car can drive forever without needing charging, so he's totally bonkers. :palm:

I wish I'd seen that video before I shot this. Yeah, bonkers. You can tell in his voice he doesn't actually believe it, so obvious.
 

Offline Fran_PSR

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2019, 07:11:57 am »
I am no longer surprised at anything ... I know a leading company in manufacturing and assembly of  industrial  electrical systems that bet on a system of "infinite energy" ... and the most worrying thing is that a university lent the facilities for conferences on the topic ... :palm:  It is easy to fool unprepared people but people who study or work in technological or scientific sectors should reflect before saying things that clash with those who learned ... :-[

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/carballo/2007/02/09/electricidad-xonxa-negocia-senegal-aplicacion-novedosas-tecnicas-produccion-energia/0003_5533212.htm

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/carballo/2007/02/07/electricidad-xonxa-presenta-multiplicador-energia/0003_5526521.htm

 

Offline Domagoj T

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2019, 08:39:04 am »
Yeah. That was a bit odd. I looked around a bit and he does somewhere acknowledge losses which was good. So he's not into overunity. But he does sail pretty close to the wind (Ouch! that was a bad pun) when making claims about the range you could expect from the wind boosted electric car. Since I'm not an engineer and haven't seen his results I'll remain skeptical. But I did immediately think of Wile E. Coyote in the road runner cartoons with a fan powered sailboard.

Just listening to him in the videos I am disinclined to want to demonise him just for cheap laughs. He seemed sincere and genuine. Even if I have my doubts.

Attaching a windmill to a car in order to harvest energy can only decrease the range. The losses due to drag, imperfect energy harvest, transmission losses, etc. will always be bigger than the gains. The only way for a windmill to increase the range of a car is if you wait on natural wind to recharge the batteries while you are parked, but still, you'd be better off if you stowed your turbines away while driving.
Suggesting otherwise shows either basic lack of understanding of the subject, or indicates some less than honorable intentions.

Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors. |O
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2019, 08:54:04 am »
It might be 1kW in a hurricane...  :-//
 

Offline Doom-the-Squirrel

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2019, 09:07:51 am »
Just from the size alone, my B.S sense was tingling.  :bullshit:

And I love their inconsistent figures.


Very nice singing voice, by the way.  8)


I did learn some interesting things on wind power. I wondered about the use of a duct and how it effects them.


I loved the segments at the end as well. I see you also thought of that "infinite power" meme.  :-DD




Somewhat off topic, but has anyone figured on how to keep birds from being killed by wind turbines yet?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 09:26:32 am by Doom-the-Squirrel »
 

Online cgroen

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2019, 09:20:29 am »
Damn, just as I thought it couldn't get any worse, what an idiot  |O
 

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2019, 10:03:16 am »
Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors. |O

He was perfectly willing to show it to a journalist and let him photograph it  :palm:
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2019, 11:36:27 am »
Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors. |O
I want to know where to find the investors to whom you can show that and they go "hmmm... yeah you're right, here's a wad of cash" since it obviously happens...
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2019, 11:45:34 am »
Perpetual car, I think he should get a no-bell prize.

https://youtu.be/NcQFRXriVDc?t=178

If you look at the in/out air currents on the simulation there's no energy loss. :palm:

http://americanwindinc.com/our-products-3/advanced-windwall/

Once you do put some load on the windwall it becomes just a billboard and nearly all the air just flows around it. :palm:
It's not rocket science. :)

CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline ormaaj

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2019, 11:47:38 am »
Attaching a windmill to a car in order to harvest energy can only decrease the range. The losses due to drag, imperfect energy harvest, transmission losses, etc. will always be bigger than the gains. The only way for a windmill to increase the range of a car is if you wait on natural wind to recharge the batteries while you are parked, but still, you'd be better off if you stowed your turbines away while driving.
Suggesting otherwise shows either basic lack of understanding of the subject, or indicates some less than honorable intentions.

Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors. |O
It is well understood that a batterizer between the windmill and car can mitigate losses and assures 800% better efficiency than existing solutions.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2019, 12:10:25 pm »
In the last linked video from American Wind they have a add list of power at different wind speeds:
[attachimg=1]

This is odd - power going up about linear with wind speed in the low speed range.  This kind of indicates they have a problem with there math. The accepted theory has the power going up like the wind speed to the cube, so much faster.

The lower claimed wind speed to reach nominal power could be a similar scaling problem.
With wrong scaling laws one can easily get fooled from wind tunnel measurements at a small scale model.  :palm:

With using 45 miles per hours instead of the more conventional 10 m/s, a 10 time higher power per area could actually be about right from the 3 rd power law.  So no contradiction in this.  However the turbine does not look right: It's too closed and most of the wind would rather go around than through.
 

Offline ormaaj

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2019, 12:23:06 pm »
However the turbine does not look right: It's too closed and most of the wind would rather go around than through.
i guess you just have to build a few km high wall of these circling the globe longitudinally. Atmospheric tidal power!
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2019, 01:13:03 pm »
American Wind May Have Changed the Future of Electric Cars

"Yost plans to drive cross-country in a Ford C-Max Energi electric car without stopping for energy beyond food and sleep."

Just to 100% confirm they know 0% about energy.

"Yost believes that his Wind Wall of MicroCubes will generate 2,800 watts per hour and keep the lithium-ion battery charged throughout the drive."

Date is 2015, so they must have tried it by now, I wonder how it went. :palm:
https://uk.3dsystems.com/blog/2015/09/american-wind-may-have-changed-future-electric-cars
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Offline exile

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Re: EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2019, 05:08:10 pm »
Can I disagree with your formula?

Your last calculation is based on one big turbine that is 7.4 meters squared in area.

If you take one of those turbines being:

Size: 40in x 24in x 26in
Wind Speed: 45 Knots ( or 23.15 meters per second )
0.5*1.2041*0.231775*(23.15^3) = 1,731 W (1021.29 W @ Betz Law)

Its an array of 10x10 so = 1731 * 10 * 10 = 173,121 W (102,141 W @ @ Betz Law)

your calculation:

0.5*1.2041*7.4*(23.15^3) = 55,273.53 W


But 10x10 array give 240in x 260in around 40.3m² and not 7.4m² (96in x 120in) given from webpage http://americanwindinc.com/our-products-3/advanced-windwall/

Quote
The power curve for the Advanced WindWall™ is much different from traditional wind turbines. Our power output starts at just 1.5mph and we achieve 100kW around 17mph.
And
Quote
Size: 96 x 120 x 24 (in)

17mph ~ 7.6m/s
96inx120in ~7.4m²
0.5*1.2041*7.4*7.6³ ~ 1955W
 


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