EEVblog #1271 - 100kW WindWall Generator BUSTED

[EEVblog]

A 100kW wind generator in only 7sqm? Less than 2% the size of traditional wind turbines!
Basic physics and the whiteboard to the rescue!

A look at the claims of the AmericanWind WindWall "turbine" wind power generator.
http://americanwindinc.com/our-products-3/advanced-windwall/
And a Wind Power 101 tutorial on how wind turbine calculations work and pesky limitation of Betz's law.

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https://lbry.tv/@eevblog:7

The Patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9331534B2/en
Failed ducted wind turbine projects: http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=637

Wind powered car! https://alcse.org/the-american-wind-powered-car/

A commercial efficient 100kW wind generator: https://en.wind-turbine-models.com/turbines/1682-hummer-h25.0-100kw

Fluxgate Condensor T-Shirt: https://teespring.com/shop/fluxgatecondenser?pid=2&cid=2397&sid=front

[StillTrying]

There's no need for sophisticated scams these days, any bonkers non-working idea can be enough to get awards and funding.

https://www.europeanceo.com/industry-outlook/microcubes-are-revolutionising-the-wind-energy-market-heres-how

[wilfred]

There's no need for sophisticated scams these days, any bonkers non-working idea can be enough to get awards and funding.

https://www.europeanceo.com/industry-outlook/microcubes-are-revolutionising-the-wind-energy-market-heres-how

There are some videos on Youtube so anyone interested can hear the story straight from the horses mouth. The first video even shows they have patent 9331534B2 for those sufficiently interested. I gave it a brief skim but I find patents hard to digest. The article you linked basically says what he says in the videos so it was probably drawn from the same marketing blurb. But sometimes it helps to hear someone speak for themselves.




There are  more but they're easy enough to find.

[BradC]

There are some videos on Youtube so anyone interested can hear the story straight from the horses mouth. The first video even shows they have patent 9331534B2 for those sufficiently interested. I gave it a brief skim but I find patents hard to digest. The article you linked basically says what he says in the videos so it was probably drawn from the same marketing blurb. But sometimes it helps to hear someone speak for themselves.

As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".

[StillTrying]

As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".

He seems convinced that the car can drive forever without needing charging, so he's totally bonkers.

[MT]

When is the line crossed from being misguided and outright a snake oil salesman.

[ziggyfish]

Can I disagree with your formula?

Your last calculation is based on one big turbine that is 7.4 meters squared in area.

If you take one of those turbines being:

Size: 40in x 24in x 26in
Wind Speed: 45 Knots ( or 23.15 meters per second )
0.5*1.2041*0.231775*(23.15^3) = 1,731 W (1021.29 W @ Betz Law)

Its an array of 10x10 so = 1731 * 10 * 10 = 173,121 W (102,141 W @ @ Betz Law)

your calculation:

0.5*1.2041*7.4*(23.15^3) = 55,273.53 W

[wilfred]

There are some videos on Youtube so anyone interested can hear the story straight from the horses mouth. The first video even shows they have patent 9331534B2 for those sufficiently interested. I gave it a brief skim but I find patents hard to digest. The article you linked basically says what he says in the videos so it was probably drawn from the same marketing blurb. But sometimes it helps to hear someone speak for themselves.

As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".

Yeah. That was a bit odd. I looked around a bit and he does somewhere acknowledge losses which was good. So he's not into overunity. But he does sail pretty close to the wind (Ouch! that was a bad pun) when making claims about the range you could expect from the wind boosted electric car. Since I'm not an engineer and haven't seen his results I'll remain skeptical. But I did immediately think of Wile E. Coyote in the road runner cartoons with a fan powered sailboard.

Just listening to him in the videos I am disinclined to want to demonise him just for cheap laughs. He seemed sincere and genuine. Even if I have my doubts.

[johnlsenchak]

I'm afraid  as long as people are foolish enough to believe these kinds of B.S. but  don't  do the math or understand the physics  behind  these new emerging technologies,    they will continue to be taken  advantage of  by these swindles 

Dave should have  been a  algebra  or physics  high school teacher  he would have  been    good at it

[EEVblog]

Dave should have  been a  algebra  or physics  high school teacher  he would have  been    good at it

Nope, I suck at math.

[EEVblog]

Can I disagree with your formula?

Your last calculation is based on one big turbine that is 7.4 meters squared in area.

If you take one of those turbines being:

Size: 40in x 24in x 26in
Wind Speed: 45 Knots ( or 23.15 meters per second )
0.5*1.2041*0.231775*(23.15^3) = 1,731 W (1021.29 W @ Betz Law)

Its an array of 10x10 so = 1731 * 10 * 10 = 173,121 W (102,141 W @ @ Betz Law)

your calculation:

0.5*1.2041*7.4*(23.15^3) = 55,273.53 W

My calculation is based on how much power is in the wind of that area, it has nothing to do with the type of turbine it's going into.
The point is to show, as a first order, how much power is available in the wind and if the spec exceeds that.

[EEVblog]

As soon as I saw the car in the last video with the turbines on the roof I knew the guy was "misguided".

He seems convinced that the car can drive forever without needing charging, so he's totally bonkers.

I wish I'd seen that video before I shot this. Yeah, bonkers. You can tell in his voice he doesn't actually believe it, so obvious.

[Fran_PSR]

I am no longer surprised at anything ... I know a leading company in manufacturing and assembly of  industrial  electrical systems that bet on a system of "infinite energy" ... and the most worrying thing is that a university lent the facilities for conferences on the topic ...   It is easy to fool unprepared people but people who study or work in technological or scientific sectors should reflect before saying things that clash with those who learned ...

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/carballo/2007/02/09/electricidad-xonxa-negocia-senegal-aplicacion-novedosas-tecnicas-produccion-energia/0003_5533212.htm

https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/carballo/2007/02/07/electricidad-xonxa-presenta-multiplicador-energia/0003_5526521.htm

[Domagoj T]

Yeah. That was a bit odd. I looked around a bit and he does somewhere acknowledge losses which was good. So he's not into overunity. But he does sail pretty close to the wind (Ouch! that was a bad pun) when making claims about the range you could expect from the wind boosted electric car. Since I'm not an engineer and haven't seen his results I'll remain skeptical. But I did immediately think of Wile E. Coyote in the road runner cartoons with a fan powered sailboard.

Just listening to him in the videos I am disinclined to want to demonise him just for cheap laughs. He seemed sincere and genuine. Even if I have my doubts.

Attaching a windmill to a car in order to harvest energy can only decrease the range. The losses due to drag, imperfect energy harvest, transmission losses, etc. will always be bigger than the gains. The only way for a windmill to increase the range of a car is if you wait on natural wind to recharge the batteries while you are parked, but still, you'd be better off if you stowed your turbines away while driving.
Suggesting otherwise shows either basic lack of understanding of the subject, or indicates some less than honorable intentions.

Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors.

[Fungus]

It might be 1kW in a hurricane... 

[Doom-the-Squirrel]

Just from the size alone, my B.S sense was tingling. 

And I love their inconsistent figures.


Very nice singing voice, by the way. 


I did learn some interesting things on wind power. I wondered about the use of a duct and how it effects them.


I loved the segments at the end as well. I see you also thought of that "infinite power" meme. 




Somewhat off topic, but has anyone figured on how to keep birds from being killed by wind turbines yet?

[cgroen]

Damn, just as I thought it couldn't get any worse, what an idiot 

[EEVblog]

Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors.

He was perfectly willing to show it to a journalist and let him photograph it 

[Kilrah]

Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors.

I want to know where to find the investors to whom you can show that and they go "hmmm... yeah you're right, here's a wad of cash" since it obviously happens...

[StillTrying]

Perpetual car, I think he should get a no-bell prize.

https://youtu.be/NcQFRXriVDc?t=178

If you look at the in/out air currents on the simulation there's no energy loss.

http://americanwindinc.com/our-products-3/advanced-windwall/

Once you do put some load on the windwall it becomes just a billboard and nearly all the air just flows around it.
It's not rocket science.

[ormaaj]

Attaching a windmill to a car in order to harvest energy can only decrease the range. The losses due to drag, imperfect energy harvest, transmission losses, etc. will always be bigger than the gains. The only way for a windmill to increase the range of a car is if you wait on natural wind to recharge the batteries while you are parked, but still, you'd be better off if you stowed your turbines away while driving.
Suggesting otherwise shows either basic lack of understanding of the subject, or indicates some less than honorable intentions.

Attempts to power a fan from a wind turbine that is being driven by the fan... that's not something I would be mentioning to my potential investors.

It is well understood that a batterizer between the windmill and car can mitigate losses and assures 800% better efficiency than existing solutions.

[Kleinstein]

In the last linked video from American Wind they have a add list of power at different wind speeds:


This is odd - power going up about linear with wind speed in the low speed range.  This kind of indicates they have a problem with there math. The accepted theory has the power going up like the wind speed to the cube, so much faster.

The lower claimed wind speed to reach nominal power could be a similar scaling problem.
With wrong scaling laws one can easily get fooled from wind tunnel measurements at a small scale model. 

With using 45 miles per hours instead of the more conventional 10 m/s, a 10 time higher power per area could actually be about right from the 3 rd power law.  So no contradiction in this.  However the turbine does not look right: It's too closed and most of the wind would rather go around than through.

[ormaaj]

However the turbine does not look right: It's too closed and most of the wind would rather go around than through.

i guess you just have to build a few km high wall of these circling the globe longitudinally. Atmospheric tidal power!

[StillTrying]

American Wind May Have Changed the Future of Electric Cars

"Yost plans to drive cross-country in a Ford C-Max Energi electric car without stopping for energy beyond food and sleep."

Just to 100% confirm they know 0% about energy.

"Yost believes that his Wind Wall of MicroCubes will generate 2,800 watts per hour and keep the lithium-ion battery charged throughout the drive."

Date is 2015, so they must have tried it by now, I wonder how it went.
https://uk.3dsystems.com/blog/2015/09/american-wind-may-have-changed-future-electric-cars

[exile]

Can I disagree with your formula?

Your last calculation is based on one big turbine that is 7.4 meters squared in area.

If you take one of those turbines being:

Size: 40in x 24in x 26in
Wind Speed: 45 Knots ( or 23.15 meters per second )
0.5*1.2041*0.231775*(23.15^3) = 1,731 W (1021.29 W @ Betz Law)

Its an array of 10x10 so = 1731 * 10 * 10 = 173,121 W (102,141 W @ @ Betz Law)

your calculation:

0.5*1.2041*7.4*(23.15^3) = 55,273.53 W

But 10x10 array give 240in x 260in around 40.3m² and not 7.4m² (96in x 120in) given from webpage http://americanwindinc.com/our-products-3/advanced-windwall/

The power curve for the Advanced WindWall™ is much different from traditional wind turbines. Our power output starts at just 1.5mph and we achieve 100kW around 17mph.

And

Size: 96 x 120 x 24 (in)

17mph ~ 7.6m/s
96inx120in ~7.4m²
0.5*1.2041*7.4*7.6³ ~ 1955W

[Kleinstein]

Windpower seems to have really bad effect on math:
they don't even get the simple mechanical size calculation right.
10x10 units of 24x26 in² is not 96x120 in²        

[Doom-the-Squirrel]

Windpower seems to have really bad effect on math:
they don't even get the simple mechanical size calculation right.
10x10 units of 24x26 in² is not 96x120 in²        

 

This should be a new meme.

[iMo]

In the last picture above they claim "976kWHours @11mph" in 1 year. That is 111W per hour.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

In the last picture above they claim "976kWHours @11mph" in 1 year. That is 111W

And as there are 100 microcubes => 1.1W per microcube

[iMo]

People usually mess pretty freely with "kW", "kWh", "kWhs in 1 year", etc. - it could easily be the guys from American Wind do not care much too..

PS: If I were the lawyer of AW I would claim "Yeah, hmm, yeah, .. 1kW per microcube.., yeah, it was meant 1kWh in 1year, that is how it works in the industry, you know.."

[Kleinstein]

The Americans have the additional problem of working with odd units like BTU in/ft²/F  (not in this context, but this about as bad as it can get).

The problems seem to be deeper than just mixing up units.  There are many parts not making much sense (the size of the wall,  the lower optimal wind speed for the wall unit compared to the cube,  the more linear scaling of power with wind speed)  -- once one starts scaling with the wrong formulas odd things can happen.

Some of there explanations for good efficiency sounds very much like over-unity energy gain crap: use the front fan to pull in the air, so that the later blades can harvest more energy 

[iMo]

What I wanted to indicate above is following - you will not get your money back easily Today's marketeers have got a lot of tricks up their sleeves..

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Some of there explanations for good efficiency sounds very much like over-unity energy gain crap: use the front fan to pull in the air, so that the later blades can harvest more energy 

This is my favourite BS claim: "Traditional wind turbines need tremendous amounts of torque to turn their generators" as if the energy generated and the work required had nothing to do with each other.

[PSR B1257]

A little bit off topic, but maybe a good candidat for a nother video regarding wind energy.
As always, there is no limit for stupidity, as proven by a spanish "invention".
https://vortexbladeless.com/technology-design/

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

As always, there is no limit for stupidity, as proven by a spanish "invention".

Well yeah, the project may be spanish, but you're going to pay for it:

Project funded by the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation

As you say, "there is no limit for stupidity" 

[wilfred]

Some of there explanations for good efficiency sounds very much like over-unity energy gain crap: use the front fan to pull in the air, so that the later blades can harvest more energy 

This is my favourite BS claim: "Traditional wind turbines need tremendous amounts of torque to turn their generators" as if the energy generated and the work required had nothing to do with each other.

I interpreted that to mean this device has low start torque so it can produce some power at low wind speeds. This seems to be the main differentiating characteristic for the little cubes. For small local applications. I did hear the inventor make a statement to the effect that sun and wind don't often overlap so people with more wind than sun can do something local for generating electricity like people do with solar panels. I don't think it qualifies as BS when taken out of the original context.

[VK3DRB]

Their website had grammatical errors on it, a good indication it is dodgy.

It is wonder the company wasn't based in Queensland, Australia's premier state for two-bit scammers, frauds and get-rich-quick schemers. Rick Mayne, a roof tiler, was once worth $50 million, when his unlisted company Split-Cycle Technology raised about $200 million from mum and dad investors by claiming to have invented a revolutionary engine for cars. Mayne’s engine was never used in a car and the company collapsed. The engine was a dud. Even Sir Jack Brabham was fooled into spruiking Mayne's snake oil. Although Mayne never did demonstrate the engine actually powering a car, he did demonstrate a new Lamborghini he'd bought himself from the proceeds. Mayne died in 2011  after which there was some battle going for Mayne's Lamborghini between his Russian defacto and a jailed drug criminal.

Nears its end, Spilt Cycle Technology was raising funds to keep the failed company going with "revolutionary technology" using compressed air in cylinders to powered bicycles .

Most of these type of people have have no scientific or engineering background; and almost always have no relevant education.

[Kilrah]

I interpreted that to mean this device has low start torque so it can produce some power at low wind speeds.

Yeah they start turning, but for nothing. Since power goes with speed cubed at low speed even if they can technically turn there's no significant power to get from that.

[wilfred]

I interpreted that to mean this device has low start torque so it can produce some power at low wind speeds.

Yeah they start turning, but for nothing. Since power goes with speed cubed at low speed even if they can technically turn there's no significant power to get from that.

But that's what it is. Getting what is there to be got is better than not getting it. Significant power is a bit open to being defined by the application.

[Kilrah]

Um yeah.
Just run the numbers - They say it starts at 1.5mph. That's 0.67m/s. Plug that into the formula, you get a theoretical maximum of 0.18W, and 0.107W after Betz's law...
I don't know what application benefits from a 1m^2 wind turbine wall to get 0.1W out.

Say you could do with 50W, you need 7mph already.

Not including all the other loss factors obviously.

They're saying "we start making power earlier than others!" But that's only because the others don't include a range that cannot be useful in the first place. AKA more BS.

[Kleinstein]

Most generators need a minimum speed to get sufficient voltage. So there is practical lower limit for the turbines to produce energy. As the power is low at low speed anyway, there is not much lost if the turbine only starts at 2 m/s instead of 1m/s. At 1/10 the nominal wind speed the power is only 0.1% of nominal at best - usually lower as efficiency is optimized for the higher end. 0.1% may not even be enough power to rotate to turbine to the right direction.

Trying to get more power from low wind is futile. The energy is just not there to harvest. If the power curve goes up slower than V³ to higher wind speeds, this means they have poor efficiency at higher wind speed.  For a real turbine the curve will likely go up even a little steeper than V³. A turbine that is good at any wind speed would approach the V³ law, but that is about the best one can get. Less dependence on wind speed would be from giving away power at high wind, not getting more from low wind.

A slightly similar effect happens with thin film solar cells. They have lower efficiency at high intensity and thus slight less slope in the power versus light curve. This still does not mean they are higher efficiency at low light. They may still be a good choice in lower light conditions, as this is the best they can do.

[wilfred]

Um yeah.
Just run the numbers - They say it starts at 1.5mph. That's 0.67m/s. Plug that into the formula, you get a theoretical maximum of 0.18W, and 0.107W after Betz's law...
I don't know what application benefits from a 1m^2 wind turbine wall to get 0.1W out.

Say you could do with 50W, you need 7mph already.

Not including all the other loss factors obviously.

They're saying "we start making power earlier than others!" But that's only because the others don't include a range that cannot be useful in the first place. AKA more BS.

Don't just call it BS. It's not BS if it is actually true they make power earlier. Just because you want to designate that small amount of power not useful is not enough to justify throwing BS into the pot. They could lock the turbines or turn they device away from the wind and not produce any power. Would that make it satisfy you?

Solar panels start making electricity as soon as the light gets intense enough  would you also argue it's not significant. What's the difference? Solar panels take whatever is there to be got so why not do the same with wind.

I'm assuming the video claims it isn't efficient enough so throwing any energy away as insignificant is only going to make it even less efficient.

One of the applications I heard was to incorporate this cube into buildings to capture the wind striking the face of the building. Now I can't say I know what a breeze against the face of a skyscraper does when it has to move out of the way but I wouldn't be surprise if someone informed me it tries to get past the edge at a much higher velocity.

I'm completely uninterested in joining a frenzy of disdain decrying some claim made. I can see this type of device might have some use if it can generate power at reasonable cost. Putting it on a car sounds ridiculous because it is. I'll let them work on it and develop it and see if anything comes of it. If nothing comes of it then that won't mean it was a bad idea.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Um yeah.
Just run the numbers - They say it starts at 1.5mph. That's 0.67m/s. Plug that into the formula, you get a theoretical maximum of 0.18W, and 0.107W after Betz's law...
I don't know what application benefits from a 1m^2 wind turbine wall to get 0.1W out.

And low power energy harvesting is a bitch, I'd bet it takes more than 0.1W to inject 0.1W into the grid. But maybe they've got that sorted out too, who knows? 

[Kilrah]

Just because you want to designate that small amount of power not useful is not enough to justify throwing BS into the pot.

It does not generate any. There's 0.1W to be had at a theoretical most from the incoming wind, but it's not going to overcome any load, said load including what's needed to get the system in operation.
The friction losses in the generators will be too big for them to even spin. Their claim can not even be valid.

[max_torque]

What a lot of "inventors in sheds" seem to miss, is that for a viable product, you don't care what the rated power of a generating device actually is, no, what actually you care about is the cost per unit power!

Most of these wacky ducted fan schemes fail quite simply because they have a higher $ per kW of installed capacity. 

It's like going to the shops and have having a choice between two chocolate bars, each of identical mass, but one costing more than the other. Irrespective of how many you are buying, 1 or 1000, you'll always chose the cheaper one!

[StillTrying]

There's that many 'simple misunderstandings' of how air, blades and energy works and complete in this American Wind, that I'll have to turn it right up to gas mark #scam.


There's some good comments on the YT.

"If Mr. Yost were telling the truth, a helicopter descending in autorotation should drop like a rock in free-fall, but it doesn't.  In reality, it drops about as fast as a parachute of the same diameter as the main rotor diameter, even though the blade area is but a tiny fraction of the swept area of the rotor disc."

[wilfred]

Just because you want to designate that small amount of power not useful is not enough to justify throwing BS into the pot.

It does not generate any. There's 0.1W to be had at a theoretical most from the incoming wind, but it's not going to overcome any load, said load including what's needed to get the system in operation.
The friction losses in the generators will be too big for them to even spin. Their claim can not even be valid.

OK. This is an argument I don't want to have. I have made the points I wanted to make.I don't think you're wrong so there is nowhere else to go with it.

[vad]

Solar panels start making electricity as soon as the light gets intense enough  would you also argue it's not significant. What's the difference? Solar panels take whatever is there to be got so why not do the same with wind.

The only difference is the cubic law vs linear law for the theoretical maximum power.

10 times drop in light intensity translates into 10 times drop in power that can be absorbed by photovoltaic cell. 10 times slower wind translates into 1000 times less power available from kinetic energy of moving air.

[StillTrying]

I missed this bit were he suggests putting the magic turbeans over a building's air conditioning air outlets to produce electricity, he doesn't seem to realize that blocking the air outlets even partially would waste more energy than is recovered. Intentionally or not, I don't think he could be any closer to an over unity nutter.

https://youtu.be/NcQFRXriVDc?t=123

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

I missed this bit were he suggests putting the magic turbeans over a building's air conditioning air outlets to produce electricity

Freakin' Magic Turbeans !!

[German_EE]

I had not heard of this crazy scheme until Dave's video so I approached this with an open mind. As soon as I heard that such a small cube was meant to generate 1Kw then, click, my bullshit light went off. After that everything else was secondary.

Never

Going

To

Work

[floobydust]

I'd like to put a couple cubes on my bicycle. Imagine the speed, the power!

[thm_w]

I missed this bit were he suggests putting the magic turbeans over a building's air conditioning air outlets to produce electricity, he doesn't seem to realize that blocking the air outlets even partially would waste more energy than is recovered. Intentionally or not, I don't think he could be any closer to an over unity nutter.

https://youtu.be/NcQFRXriVDc?t=123

AC wouldn't work, but you could harvest some energy from exhaust gas venting. Its risky though, because then if the outlet were somehow blocked you'd get nasty fumes going back into the building.

[StillTrying]

They're sticking by their bonkers claims on FB.

Yesterday at 05:16 ·
"Again, American Wind, Inc's products are not theory. We have been verified and certified in a wind tunnel. Lots of equipment and engineers went into the testing and we have posted a summary statement before as the full report contains proprietary information."
www.facebook.com/AmericanWindInc

[wilfred]

Solar panels start making electricity as soon as the light gets intense enough  would you also argue it's not significant. What's the difference? Solar panels take whatever is there to be got so why not do the same with wind.

The only difference is the cubic law vs linear law for the theoretical maximum power.

10 times drop in light intensity translates into 10 times drop in power that can be absorbed by photovoltaic cell. 10 times slower wind translates into 1000 times less power available from kinetic energy of moving air.

I'll grant you that's a practical difference. But my main point was about the arbitrariness of defining a level of energy as below a significant level. This topic as have previous topics of a similar nature have a tendency to descend into uncritical comment  for amusement only.

I haven't seen what the video said but from the comments on youtube I gather the product has claims, or a single claim, which are questionable.  I believe the company is trying to make a product that will harvest wind in places where large turbines cannot be placed for whatever reason. The customers who put large installations of these in buildings will hopefully be expert and capable of determining whether they are a reasonable concept at whatever capacity they really will demonstrate in actual onsite usage. Until then investors need to be careful as they always should be and do their due diligence.

It is a pity the inventor suggests some impractical applications which inevitably invite ridicule. If these cubes were dissociated from such ideas then they could be evaluated on their actual real world performance. Lots of ideas fail to achieve commercial success. This may  be another one. We'll see.

[StillTrying]

If these cubes were dissociated from such ideas then they could be evaluated on their actual real world performance.

They've had years to put one of their magical cubes outside and measure the Watt(s) it produces, I know why they haven't.
They insist on sucking the air out of the back of it in a wind tunnel, but free air doesn't work like that.

[station240]

As soon as I save the thumbnail image I knew this was BS, didn't even need to watch the video.

That tiny fan is supposed to be more efficient than a huge wind turbine ? lol
Reynolds Number alone is reason enough that larger blade diameter = more efficient.

Case in point, model aircraft jet engines have very marginal Reynolds Number/efficiency, it's amazing they work at all.
Compare that to the full size ones which are WW2 era technology. You'd think someone who designed jet engines would know about this.

[floobydust]

Why aren't we looking at the electrical? Where are the diodes? Interconnect between cubes at the 100kW level is a "spring"    should be some some thick wiring...
You can only stuff so many magnets of a certain size, and coils within the hub or rotor of a microcube and I don't see the power density there. I guess you'd need dimensions and of course the patent has many pancake generator configurations to further dilute the reality uh I mean technology.

[Domagoj T]

American Wind Inc
November 22, 2016 ·
Last week, American Wind, Inc ran our turbine through the wind tunnel. In this video you see the MicroSphere ( adapted for the wind tunnel ) running in the open environment at VERY low wind speeds for the wind tunnel. Actually it is at idle. ( around 6ms ) In this wind speed we out preformed what previous data had showed us and had very high voltage. After this we closed up with wind tunnel and performed a full test run which you can see in the time lapse. All in all it was a successful day of testing.

High voltage, ok; but what about power? Or are they testing open circuit?
Besides, isn't 6m/s in the ballpark of average wind speeds on Earth?

[Doom-the-Squirrel]

I missed this bit were he suggests putting the magic turbeans over a building's air conditioning air outlets to produce electricity

Freakin' Magic Turbeans !!

From the makers of the Turbo Encabulator!

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

From the makers of the Turbo Encabulator!

Kudos to Mr. Yost for thinking out of the box:

"There's an industry long standing fixation on power generation by the relative motion of conventional conductors and fluxes, with total disregard for the scientific research (*) in the field of panandermic semi-boloid stator magnetoreluctance and synchronous-sequential noninductive transformers."

(*) Zeitschrift für Physik, LBM-1. Wissenschaftliche Presse, Berlin.

[Kilrah]

I haven't seen what the video said but from the comments on youtube I gather the product has claims, or a single claim, which are questionable.

It's the main claim, and it's not "questionable", it's impossible by orders of magnitude.

It is a pity the inventor suggests some impractical applications which inevitably invite ridicule.

Typical from scammers. Target the application people know about, you get much more exposure that way.

One of the applications I heard was to incorporate this cube into buildings to capture the wind striking the face of the building. Now I can't say I know what a breeze against the face of a skyscraper does when it has to move out of the way but I wouldn't be surprise if someone informed me it tries to get past the edge at a much higher velocity.

That's wind-powered solar roadways. You could put small, expensive, inefficient, non-durable wind cubes in impractical locations... or you could put an actual wind turbine that works efficiently and will last a bit further away.

But my main point was about the arbitrariness of defining a level of energy as below a significant level

It's not arbitrary, it's based on the cost/burden of the installation (and energy/matter it takes to produce it) and what you'll get in return. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to get that advertising a range that gets almost zero out just because it allows to quote a cool number is BS and is done only to mislead poeple.

[max_torque]

Right, so here's the plan:


we use a Windwall generator to make power, which we feed into a uBeam device to transfer to a large array of lamps, and the light from those falls onto a solar roadway, then that electricity is used to charge up rechargable batteries, which are then fully depleted using some batteryisers 


At the end of that chain, i'd immagine we get out at least 10 times as much power as we put in given the respective claims of each of those scammers.........


#savingtheworldonescamatatime

 

[max_torque]

As soon as I save the thumbnail image I knew this was BS, didn't even need to watch the video.

That tiny fan is supposed to be more efficient than a huge wind turbine ? lol
Reynolds Number alone is reason enough that larger blade diameter = more efficient.

Case in point, model aircraft jet engines have very marginal Reynolds Number/efficiency, it's amazing they work at all.
Compare that to the full size ones which are WW2 era technology. You'd think someone who designed jet engines would know about this.

It's a problem that in our marketing lead, computer rendered, social media driven world, basic engineering is now far, far down the list of "skills"

For example, at a basic level, just because some device is optimum in one type of application makes it in no-way optimum for another.  The windscammer says "i looked at jet engine technology" because they are very efficient, but so what?  Let me give you an example:  The wheels on your push bike are really efficient.  Super light, and have very low rolling resistance.  Ok, that's great, lets fit them to you car because that must be good right, i mean they are terrific on a bike.  Of course, as soon as you let the car off the jack the wheel will collapse, and even if they don't, as soon as you turn the first corner they will fail because bike wheels don't take lateral loads.

So to suggest a turbine blade design used in a ultra high performance heat engine is in any way "optimum" for a wind turbine should immediately raise peoples suspicions.  As you say, a jet turbine disc operates at vastly different reynolds numbers and critically requires matching stators to optimise the AoA for it to actually work.

[Niels]

This is odd - power going up about linear with wind speed in the low speed range.  This kind of indicates they have a problem with there math. The accepted theory has the power going up like the wind speed to the cube, so much faster.

The energy in the wind is going up with power cubed.
P=0.5*rho*V³*A*C_p  where C_p is Power Coefficient.
The theoretical max. C_p is 0.59 Betz law.
The C_pvalue of an actual turbine varies with pitch angle, windspeed, and rotational speed.
Windturbine manufactures optimize the turbine to have optimal C_p at the windspeed where it is designed to have the most operational hours. Usually 0.45 at 7-8 m/s.
Since the C_p often is like a negative second order polynomial (with a top point of 0.45 at 7-8 m/s.) the power curve becomes almost linear between cut-in and rated.

[StillTrying]

7 years worth of high tech aerodynamic development.

[Fungus]

This video is too complicated.

It's easy for them to prove to us that it works, they can just hook up 16x 60W light bulbs to one of their little fans and light them all up in a wind.

Even a politician/VC investor should to be able to comprehend the math behind that (ie. 1000W/60W = 16 bulbs).

[Kilrah]

60W light bulbs don't exist anymore, and you know the scammers will use "60W equivalent" LED bulbs but show the 60W label

[schmitt trigger]

It is well understood that a batterizer between the windmill and car can mitigate losses and assures 800% better efficiency than existing solutions.

Only if it the system is interconnected with cryogenic-aligned, 100% oxygen free copper wire with Teflon insulation.

[German_EE]

Am I the only one who thinks that those turbine blades look like a PC fan?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Looks like the extractor fan in my kitchen.

[Twoflower]

60W light bulbs don't exist anymore, and you know the scammers will use "60W equivalent" LED bulbs but show the 60W label

If you can't buy them here doesn't mean that you can't get them elsewhere. Like in the the USA: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CB27O4

[StillTrying]

Oh dear, they've replied again, they still don't seem to realize that they're testing what the electrical generator can produce, rather than what a real wind would.

"The points the gentleman made in his YouTube are all questions we’ve answered before, and then proven."

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanWindInc/posts/1215085805347714

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Oh dear, they've replied again, they still don't seem to realize that they're testing what the electrical generator can produce, rather than what a real wind would.

"The points the gentleman made in his YouTube are all questions we’ve answered before, and then proven."

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanWindInc/posts/1215085805347714

"The points the gentleman made in his YouTube are all questions we’ve answered before, and then proven. With both mathematics and physical tests. But we won’t trash talk or mock the gentleman who made the video, we instead invite him to visit and see for himself and work with us to explain all his “questions” as we do have limited information online about our technology so it’s easy to see sometimes how he is skeptical as he doesn’t have all or even 50% of the information and has to make a lot of assumptions"

A "batterizer" style reply... They too have got some (secret) technology that allows the turbeans to squeeze the wind and obtain 10x the energy it has.

[Kilrah]

60W light bulbs don't exist anymore, and you know the scammers will use "60W equivalent" LED bulbs but show the 60W label

If you can't buy them here doesn't mean that you can't get them elsewhere. Like in the the USA: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CB27O4

It was a joke. Doubled by the fact that changing said 60W light bulbs by LEDs would save more than what their fans ever would produce.

[Kleinstein]

This is odd - power going up about linear with wind speed in the low speed range.  This kind of indicates they have a problem with there math. The accepted theory has the power going up like the wind speed to the cube, so much faster.

The energy in the wind is going up with power cubed.
P=0.5*rho*V³*A*C_p  where C_p is Power Coefficient.
The theoretical max. C_p is 0.59 Betz law.
The C_pvalue of an actual turbine varies with pitch angle, windspeed, and rotational speed.
Windturbine manufactures optimize the turbine to have optimal C_p at the windspeed where it is designed to have the most operational hours. Usually 0.45 at 7-8 m/s.
Since the C_p often is like a negative second order polynomial (with a top point of 0.45 at 7-8 m/s.) the power curve becomes almost linear between cut-in and rated.

I agree with most of this, except for the last sentence: With C_p going down below optimum the curve would be even steeper than V³.  Only above the optimum C_p the curve would be slightly less than V³, but normally not much up to the peak power.


Stilt the question why are they trying to fool people: Is it to sell a dodgy product, scam potential investors, get research funds or just as click-bait on you-tube ?

[floobydust]

Fantasy products and technology are very common. Everybody gets to go on a wild ride, fueled with investor's money.
It doesn't matter that it truly doesn't work. Laypeople don't understand energy, the Laws of Thermodynamics, physics, math- any of the basics of engineering and reality.

Theranos scooped up $9 billion over a blood test machine that was not feasible and did not work.
Fyre Festival sold crowds on a music festival that was an incredible scam. The two documentaries about it are worth the watch, to understand the psychology of a scammer.

WindWall was in Saudi Arabia looking for investors- a country that could give zero shits about renewables. Aramco's IPO is valued at $2 trillion now, on oil. So I would say WindWall is a scam, whether to recover the misspent retirement dollars of the dumb exec or just rip off naive investors.

[Bud]

Not to rip off, not to scam, but to milk them. Calmly and steady, for as long as it goes 

[StillTrying]

Their videos of this fantastic invention get about 20 views in 2 years, the EEVblog vid gets 81,000 views in 3 days.

[StillTrying]

Still the question why are they trying to fool people: Is it to sell a dodgy product, scam potential investors, get research funds or just as click-bait on you-tube ?

After reading plenty of their stuff, I think the main problem is that they have no clue, about energy, power, air, wind, simulation, wind tunnels, you name it.

[Fungus]

Still the question why are they trying to fool people: Is it to sell a dodgy product, scam potential investors, get research funds or just as click-bait on you-tube ?

After reading plenty of their stuff, I think the main problem is that they have no clue, about energy, power, air, wind, simulation, wind tunnels, you name it.

Sure they do, they're just pretending they don't because they get more investors that way.

[13hm13]

Dave:
I love your channel and the BUSTED vids.
I also like your 80/90s movie references.
But you seem to neglect the one most relevant: RoboCop (1987).
So with respect to all the ostensibly-sham "Kickstarter" projects, I'll throw a quote out from RoboCop:


=====
Dick Jones : I had a guaranteed military sale with ED 209 - renovation program, spare parts for twenty-five years... Who cares if it worked or not?
Bob Morton : The old man thought it was pretty important... Dick.
=====
Maybe the folks starting these campaigns ... maybe even SpaceX founders ... saw that movie

[Doom-the-Squirrel]

That seems to sum up these situations quite nicely.

[SparkyFX]

If i'd really be up to something, i would get the prototype up and running as fast as possible just to see how it works and have numbers falling out of it as a side effect (and if there only were a couple of immersion heaters running as a load or to test certain variants). If the prototyping is done by yourself the costs are often neglegible, the raw materials shown are not a showstopper.

If this was really beating the competition it would be a snap to have a whole system hooked up to the grid and actually produce an income, but there are only claims and delays. It obviously can't, because the principle is misrepresented.

[floobydust]

What comes first - a working prototype or marketing?  American Wind is taking pre-orders with only a 3D printed mockup 

It's a ducted fan -  which has been studied and optimized for decades - a revolutionary fin technology does not exist.
Rolls Royce, Pratt & Whitney, General Electric, CFM International, Honeywell, Williams etc., even Dyson work on those blades every day. A fan can move air or be moved by air, bi-directional.
The generator looks interesting, if they ever build one. But the system is power limited by the fan and wind forces.

[StillTrying]

Here's one of their early tests, it looks like about 75W @ 75mph.

[floobydust]

Four 50W peanut halogen lamps dimly lit, turbine on the roof of a truck at 75MPH.... is um... terrible power output for that "prototype".
I look at it as impedance matching between the airflow and the fan+generator. That can be improved but even with 100% power transfer, there's not enough power in the first place.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

The bulb is 50 Watts, but could as well have been 100 or 200 Watts 

[StillTrying]

The video's only 3 seconds because it disintegrated and blew away at 75.5 mph, probably.

[vad]

Generating ~50W in hurricane force winds (75 mph) - now that sounds believable.

[EEVblog]

Here's one of their early tests, it looks like about 75W @ 75mph.

Well, I'm sold!
 

[Syntax Error]

Dave,

in a business sense, when it comes to investing in distruptive concepts, a Venturi Effect comes into play; when information is forced to flow through a restricted conduit, investors suffer an immediate reduction in their due diligence.

The restricted conduit (bowel?) is often some incredible infographic that promises investors the ability to make the Earth spin backwards, but without any reference to the laws of physics. Despite any demonstrable and sustainable commercial viability, investors still form an orderly queue behind the crowd funding cordon, and get a free key ring, baseball hat, coffee mug or limited edition 'FOMO' tee-shirt.

In 2020, keep on busting these charlatans in the white heat of science and engineering.

[StillTrying]

I didn't know there was a vid of the car in action.

The inventor, Robert, used his knowledge and experience in aircraft technologies and building turbine engines from previous projects with GE Aircraft Engines, Pratt and Whitney Aircraft Engines, and McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) to help him design and build the MicroCube.

[floobydust]

The Venturi effect does not work because the air prefers to go around the fan. A wind tunnel test would be hilarious.
How much of a fail is that prototype? Power is proportional to V³...
My math, for the area of one module (9.6"x12") it's 45W (27W Betz) with 22.4MPH.  So... at 70MPH... one module theoretical goes up to 1,371W (813W Betz).
The test achieved 1/30 theoretical? FAIL

[Kilrah]

The Venturi effect does not work because the air prefers to go around the fan. A wind tunnel test would be hilarious.

They would duct the entire wind tunnel flow into the fan so nothing can go around... then go on to sell you an InfiniteWall™ that's so big the air can't go around it 

[Syntax Error]

Anyone care to calculate the extra drag those turbines impart on the roof of the car? And how much extra fuel is required to overcome that extra drag?

Thinks: If the under side of the vehicle at speed acts as a venturi tube to create down force, could the turbines produce even more power if slung underneath?  Ignoring the impact 'coefficient' from grit, stones and roadkill.

[StillTrying]

Maybe you could estimate the drag from the output of the turdbeans, if the turdbeans are producing 1 kW of electrical power they're probably producing 3 kW worth of drag.

[BrianHG]

  Car test is useless.  The motion and shape of the body of the car accelerates and raises the pressure of the air significantly going around and over the vehicle frame.  I would say he is getting a 6x-10x artificial boost by mounting the turbines on the roof of the car compared to the 70mph speedometer reading.  Added to the BS of rating the generators in KW/Year instead of kwh, you can see why this guy self deluding dreaming.  Whatever $ he gets, he should pocket and save while he can.  It won last forever.

[Lord of nothing]

@EEVblog
Use the Metrical System only! I have no clue what are you talking about!   

[floobydust]

WindWall scam is in American units- it's still a turd in inches, miles or cm, kilometers.

Are they really getting this far generating 3.3% (1/30) of theoretical?

[PSR B1257]

Car test is useless. 

Sure.
Maybe someone should tell Mr. Yost, where the energy, he is getting out of his turbines, is coming from.... Spoiler: The engine of the car ... doh ... 
Taking this energy direct from the alternator, would be slightly more economic - but does make for a horrible Kickstarter-Projekt 

[StillTrying]

Mr Yost has replied with some more nonsense, - the most recent comment.
https://www.facebook.com/AmericanWindInc/posts/1215085805347714

[Kilrah]

Yup, that was hilarious.

[StillTrying]

These lot definitely don't believe in AW's >90% blade area turdbine theory, but they do still think putting them over a building's air conditioning outlets is a good idea.  https://www.mowea.world/en/

[Red Squirrel]

All this did got me thinking though is there actual data on the optimal amount of blades?  I imagine it does matter to some degree.  I think 3 is optimal as any more than that you are just adding more weight to move around.   Or another thing I wonder is if many small turbines better than one big one or vise versa?    Think a lot of it also depends, if you want to optimize for high winds, or low winds.   I'm leaning towards the giant 3 blade ones being optimal given they probably had the most engineering and thought go into them.

Wind in my area can be rather sporadic, so a design that can work in low winds but also not self destruct in high ends would be the best.  Always been curious to experiment with a large squirrel cage blower style turbine (say, something the size of a shed) that is optimized to spin rather slowly but have many coils/magnets so at the outer diameter the magnets are still moving quite fast and all the magnets/coils combined would probably generate a decent amount of power even at low wind speeds.   I don't have big enough property for that though.

[floobydust]

Yup, that was hilarious.

"... What you see is the MicroCube outputting 807watts under a 725watt load.

"There is no snake oil here just technology that has been PROVEN, in 3rd party CFD, two wind tunnels, 3rd party verification of our generator output. Hundreds of people have seen this technology work with their own eyes. We never sought out any awards, they were given after people saw the technology and nominated us."

"This test is when we found out we could not run a resistance heavy load... because for the connection wire we used to connect the MicroCubes circuit to the load meter, 45amps was simply too much. This is when we shifted to a higher voltage lower amperage circuitry to control The gauge of wire and energy loss to heat."

"For people that always want to see the what it does under load, is 45amp load per cube enough? Or would you like more? We’ve pushed it to 60amps and almost ignited the wires that make the connection to the load meter before. 6 amp load was chosen, but is not the maximum, nor is 180v max per cube. At one wind tunnel we pushed it to well over 220v."

Uh, 45A of pure bullshit! From his cheezy labview screen, it's likely 45mA.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Whenever I hear somebody say "amperage"... I know what to expect.

[Red Squirrel]

If they were pushing that much I'd like to see the size of the wiring used for the coils and output!  Would need to be like 6 gauge lol.   My guess is they have the meter set to milliamps.