Author Topic: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing  (Read 9711 times)

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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2019, 09:17:26 pm »
(thinking out loud)

H2 is the most difficult gas to contain. The speed at which the atoms move and bounce against the walls of the container is the highest of all gases, about 2 km/s (*), it's also the smallest atom there is (#1 in the periodic table), and on top of that the most common H isotope has no neutrons => it's ~ the size of a single proton! Such many high speed tiny H2 projectiles often find it easier than other gasses to diffuse into the container material and can even embrittle steel.

I'd think it's no easy task to manufacture cheaply and in volume a reliably sealed battery... one that when discharged and exposed to H2 under pressure, won't ever leak a tiny amount of that nasty electrolyte.

And I'd bet higher temps play a big role here, if only due to increased H2 pressure.

P.D. @Dave: Gotcha binarysequence! I've seen your photos uploaded there!  :-+  8)

(*) At 20ºC. For comparison, CO2 atoms move at ~ 1/5th that speed.
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Offline Dread

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2019, 09:32:14 pm »
I have found that the cheap Chinese batteries that come with most products almost never leak while the batteries that claim superior power like the Duracells and some Energizers are the most likely to leak.

Any test that is done should at least involve taking one fresh battery out and discharging it completely and making a note of it's energy density. I think the energy density has a direct correlation on the batteries potential to leak.
The Optimist says the glass is half full, the Pessimist says its half empty, an engineer only see's a glass that’s twice as big as it needs to be!
 

Offline amyk

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2019, 11:22:45 pm »
- No one remembers when they replace batteries and they don't leak.
- Everyone remembers when they replace batteries and they leak and damage something.
- Duracell and Energizer are the most widely used brands.

I suspect the leaks are statistically insignificant, and only happen due to imperfections in manufacturing process and natural statistical variance. If you could find a way to measure the internal pressure of the cell, that would be very interesting to see.

I found a book called "Battery Hazards and Accident Prevention" which claims alkaline cells may develop internal pressures of several hundred psi :o That explains the others here who have mentioned the AAAAs in 9V batteries exploding, and I've personally experienced an AA pop its seal while I was there, minutes after it had been rather abusively drained at over 3A (it sounded more like a very loud balloon popping, followed by a bubbling sound as the electrolyte poured out.)

Thus, discharged cells are already under high pressure, and I guess over time the seal just deterioriates and allows them to leak.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 11:34:11 pm by amyk »
 

Offline texaspyro

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2019, 12:31:01 am »
- No one remembers when they replace batteries and they don't leak.

I do... whenever I replace batteries I stick a piece of paper with the date on it into the battery holder.

And remember... they don't call them alkaleak batteries for nothing.   I now always use lithium batteries.   I've never seen one leak.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2019, 12:58:21 am »
P.D. @Dave: Gotcha binarysequence! I've seen your photos uploaded there!  :-+  8)

It's hardly a secret.
They don't let you use your real name or company name as a username, it's stupid.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2019, 05:10:02 am »
When I saw "10 months" I was hoping it was intended to be such duration -- alas, merely forgotten that long.  D'oh!  If you're willing to continue the experiments I'd love to see a long duration discharge, perhaps using new and old batteries of mixed charge state (fulls, halfs, both)?  Preferably a statistically significant sample of each brand too, but sheesh, that'll gobble up an entire shelf pretty quickly.  :scared:

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Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2019, 09:50:16 am »
- No one remembers when they replace batteries and they don't leak.

I do... whenever I replace batteries I stick a piece of paper with the date on it into the battery holder.

And remember... they don't call them alkaleak batteries for nothing.   I now always use lithium batteries.   I've never seen one leak.
I also remember,I write the date with a sharpie on each cell when I install it,something I have done for the past forty odd years, I also do the same for light bulbs and have found that no brand of LED bulb lasts anything like the claimed life.
 
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Offline WattSekunde

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2019, 02:03:01 pm »
[....]
I also remember,I write the date with a sharpie on each cell when I install it,something I have done for the past forty odd years, I also do the same for light bulbs and have found that no brand of LED bulb lasts anything like the claimed life.

I do the same since LED light bulbs on the market. In my case only the expensive of the branded ones are in every aspect better than the cheap branded or fantasy name one's. Longevity LEDs AND internal power supply, CRI (color rendering index), luminous strength stability over time. And maybe environmental friendlier production? At the end they are cheaper.
 

Offline calzap

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2019, 04:00:55 pm »
If anyone is interested in the chemistry of hydrogen generation in alkalines, it's here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/alkaline-battery-leakage/msg533832/#msg533832

Positioning of the batteries may play a role.  In some positions, the most leak-prone part of the case may be lowest.  The liquid may eventually seep down and be forced out by hydrogen gas build-up.  The weak point may vary from battery to battery within the same brand.  Doesn't take much of a hole or weak spot for fluid to be forced-out under pressure over a period of months.

Mike in California

 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2019, 06:04:12 pm »
I had a ziploc bag of about 30 new AA Alkaline (Costco own brand) batteries go bad after about two years -  about half of them had leaked.  They had been stored in the dark, in an enclosed bag.  Temperatures would have been pretty warm during the summer, where they were placed.   My theory at the time was that the summer heat caused them to leak (increased internal pressure forcing liquid out?).

At least the ziploc bag contained the mess they made...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 06:05:54 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline calzap

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2019, 06:48:59 pm »
Of the three brands  (Energizer, Duracell, Kirkland/Costco) I've used extensively,  Kirkland are the worst leakers.   

Summer heat will speed chemical reactions including Zn with hydroxide ion, which is what produces hydrogen gas in alkalines.

Mike in California
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 06:50:52 pm by calzap »
 

Offline Dread

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2019, 12:21:13 am »
I had a box of 24 AC Delco AAA batteries leak in the box.  I had only used about 8 of them and left the pack in a drawer.  About a year later I came across them and it was a mess!  Also I never use Duracell, they have leaked on me several times.  I don't have too many problems with Energizer batteries, so I use those up until recently when I found EBL batteries.

EBL are the only batteries on Amazon that have an almost perfect 100% rating and they have earned it.  Its early days yet but so far none of them in my first order have leaked.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XDV4P2N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

EBL is so far the best battery I have found so far in the balance between power density and leak resistance.
Not one has leaked yet.

Rob
The Optimist says the glass is half full, the Pessimist says its half empty, an engineer only see's a glass that’s twice as big as it needs to be!
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2019, 02:06:30 am »
It's not really enough to just see whose battery has leaked. In research papers they inject ~1A to force hydrogen buildup, or use high temperature to add stress. When the seal spews electrolyte, wash the cell off in water and then measure that water's conductivity to determine how much leaked, to quantify the seal.

I think that batteries need to be able to "burp" hydrogen without expelling electrolyte.  With the ban on mercury, either something new is used or the cells simply evolve more gas nowadays. You could put one in oil or something, charge it and see how many bubbles it makes. PSI (kPa) the seal can hold is not the issue I think, it's the venting.

I mentioned in the other thread:
"Kirkland alkaline batteries are made by Duracell, Costco CEO Craig Jelinek mentioned in an interview.
Berkshire Hathaway ownership and cost reductions have clearly made Duracell the worst alkaline batteries I have ever seen, King of Leaks."
 

Offline richnormand

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REPAIR, RENEW, REUSE, RECYCLE, REBUILD, REDUCE, RECOVER, REPURPOSE, RESTORE....
 

Online tkamiya

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2019, 04:43:08 am »
10 months is perhaps not long enough test.  I associate battery leakage with ones in long term use like clocks and calculators.  I just had such an incident.  Energizer battery leaked.  TOP (+) side is totally corroded and bottom has just small stain spots.  This clock uses one battery only.  The battery compartment was damp with liquid.  It has been use for at least a year and likely more.  Also, I only check batteries when an equipment stopped working.  That tells me leaks perhaps start AFTER the battery is completely exhausted?  I've also don't recall ever seen leakage that drains pretty fast.  (but it could mean I check/change them more often)

I seem to have bought this battery locally not from mail order by looking at past purchases log.  But I heard, on large online outlets, fakes are showing up.  So I guess (even though I bought this locally), there is no guarantee that this is a genuine Energizer.

Here are the pictures.
 

Offline Dick123

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2019, 09:27:52 am »
The real "problem" with Duracell batteries are their origin IMHO. I can't remember having any leakage with those orange "Duracell Industrial"  labeled Made in Belgium, but a few incidents with those Made in USA and Made in China - especially in the last four or five years. Duracell batteries are very often bundled with those LED torches (three or four AA or AAA cells inside) used by local police and firemen.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2019, 01:49:03 pm »
[...]  That tells me leaks perhaps start AFTER the battery is completely exhausted? [...]

Plenty examples in this thread of unused batteries leaking.  It looks like temperature may be a factor, though.  Was your unit kept in a hot environment at any time?
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2019, 01:54:39 pm »
[...]  I can't remember having any leakage with those orange "Duracell Industrial"  labeled Made in Belgium [...]

If you are going to pay a premium price, why not just buy Lithium batteries?  They are the best overall (temperature range, no leaks) but do come at a cost.

Here, I have resigned myself to always buying Lithium if I can't make do with rechargeable Eneloops.

Duracell rechargeable AA cells are also very good.  I read somewhere that they are actually rebadged Eneloops.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2019, 02:15:36 pm »
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D9K2H9H

Has anyone tried these? Must have a sort of batterizer inside, right?  :-//

[attachimg=1]
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 02:17:38 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2019, 02:43:07 pm »
Has anyone tried these? Must have a sort of batterizer inside, right?  :-//

I have tested them and a couple of other LiIon based AA batteries.
 

Offline Dick123

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2019, 04:13:11 pm »
If you are going to pay a premium price, why not just buy Lithium batteries?  They are the best overall (temperature range, no leaks) but do come at a cost.
Here, I have resigned myself to always buying Lithium if I can't make do with rechargeable Eneloops.
...
Premium price? Here in the Netherlands and in Germany you pay less than 23 Euro (incl. tax) for 100 (one hundred!) Vartra Industrial Pro AAA cells. For the very same price you only get 20 Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells. So it depends on the circumstances and/or the devices which one would be the better choice. Like you I always use the (white) rechargeable Eneloops whenever possible but sometimes devices denies to work properly with these. And even Lithium batteries can't replace regular Alkalines all the time. Or haven't you wondered why manufacturers of electronic devices did not mention them in their instruction manuals?
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2019, 04:37:35 pm »
Has anyone tried these? Must have a sort of batterizer inside, right?  :-//
I have tested them and a couple of other LiIon based AA batteries.

And what's inside, a charger and an LDO? Or something else?
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Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2019, 06:25:49 pm »

And what's inside, a charger and an LDO? Or something else?

A LiIon battery, a LiIon charge chip and and a buck converter.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2019, 06:49:10 pm »
A LiIon battery, a LiIon charge chip and and a buck converter.

Then surely the discharge curve looks like a cliff, right? Doesn't it self discharge too quickly due to the quiescent currents of all that jazz?
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Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2019, 07:00:55 pm »
Then surely the discharge curve looks like a cliff, right? Doesn't it self discharge too quickly due to the quiescent currents of all that jazz?



It do not work with battery gauges.
It will, at least, keep charge for months.
 
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