EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on December 26, 2019, 10:07:22 pm

Title: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: EEVblog on December 26, 2019, 10:07:22 pm
Testing 7 different brands of AA Alkaline batteries in two different configurations over 10 months to see if they leak. Duracell, Energizer, Varta, Panasonic, Fujitsu,
HVP70 High Voltage Probe: https://www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/ (https://www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/)
Subscribe on LBRY: https://lbry.tv/@eevblog:7 (https://lbry.tv/@eevblog:7)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVkPVq0nYbs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVkPVq0nYbs)


Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: darik on December 26, 2019, 10:52:57 pm
I don't think being completely discharged is what is important with alkalines. I know old school carbon batteries were guaranteed to leak if deeply discharged, I think that's why people associate being discharged with leaking. But I've been getting out my meter when I discover a leaky alkaline lately and I've yet to happen across one below 1.2V. They're usually in the 1.3-1.4 V range. Most of the time when I find a leaky battery the device is still powering up fine with the leaky battery in it.

So I think it's either the really slow discharge you mentioned in the video or perhaps being discharged somewhat then being left idle for a long time that causes it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: johnlsenchak on December 26, 2019, 11:14:54 pm

Outback  Dave

I remember you  doing that battery  video  months  ago, and putting them on  the window  sill . I always   wondered  what  happened  to those sets  of  batteries


I'm  not a battery expert, I  don't claim to be one  but could it be that the  leakage  occurs  in   battery compartments  which is  in a dark   enclosure .  That nasty 
formation  is  like  black  mold  which   needs  certain  conditions  to  grow.   I base this  as a kid   in the seventies , when  this   corrosion   occurred in  radio and tape
cassette player   compartments  using  real  cheap  batteries  with the covers on , not in the broad  daylight
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: EEVblog on December 26, 2019, 11:20:45 pm
Now I'm thinking that perhaps, rather than run different brands, take the most notorious brand (Duracell) and just test those to discover the best mechanism for leakage FIRST, before testing all the brands?

And maybe get a bunch of small $2 farting novelty gadgets that takes two AA's that has a small standby current. I could get dozens of these on AliExpress and run various combinations.
Product recommendations?


Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: EEVblog on December 26, 2019, 11:21:20 pm
I'm  not a battery expert, I  don't claim to be one  but could it be that the  leakage  occurs  in   battery compartments  which is  in a dark   enclosure .  That nasty 
formation  is  like  black  mold  which   needs  certain  conditions  to  grow.   I base this  as a kid   in the seventies , when  this   corrosion   occurred in  radio and tape
cassette player   compartments  using  real  cheap  batteries  with the covers on , not in the broad  daylight

That is certainly possible.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: EEVblog on December 26, 2019, 11:22:39 pm
So I think it's either the really slow discharge you mentioned in the video or perhaps being discharged somewhat then being left idle for a long time that causes it.

Yep, this is why I think the next test needs to be done with a large number of variations in environmental conditions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Kleinstein on December 26, 2019, 11:29:34 pm
I have seen different cells leak.  Leakage may be favored at higher temperature. In an electric thermostat I had 2 sets of batteries leak after some 1.5-2 years, about when they go empty (e.g. still some 1 to 1.2 V left). Temperature cycles could also be an issue. As general temperature can accelerate aging.

The cells usually have a date written on them - It gives an indication when you may start to see leakage, not just when considerable charge is lost due to self discharge.

With NiCd cells I noticed the orientation (which side up) can also make a difference.  I don't remember which way, but I had a set from an electric tool where 3 out of 10 cells started leaking, all in the same orientation (preferred with one pole up).

Todays batteries may be different from the ones 5 years ago - especially brands that had problems before could have improved or at least changed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: texaspyro on December 26, 2019, 11:31:22 pm
Look at the expiration date on the batteries.  Your probe batteries expired in 2018.  I've found that almost all batteries don't leak until after the expiration date... of course there are exceptions.   You may need to extend the test for a decade or so.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Hydrawerk on December 26, 2019, 11:34:53 pm
I have seen many leaked Duracell alkaline batteries... But I never bought them much.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: MBY on December 27, 2019, 12:20:57 am
I've had Duracell 9V/PP3 with 6 AAAA batteries explode, one by one in a drawer. A very sharp and loud bang, like from a gun, a very unpleasant sound. The cells was in my "recycle"-bin drawer where I collect used batteries and those where maybe 20 years old. Not connected to anything and stone dead. It obviously took some time the first time to figure out why a loud bang appeared from nowhere.

The multiple of anecdotes is not data, but I can't help notice that I'm one of those that has only seen Duracel leak (or freaking explode!), except one "Ocel" branded battery, once. I've also seen button NiMH and NiCd cells explode spontaneously (not connected to anything), but from GP and that has been violent as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 27, 2019, 01:00:41 am
I think you can rule out age as being a factor, last week I found another gadget with Duracells in it from 2002.   :phew:


Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Syntax Error on December 27, 2019, 01:08:56 am
Back in my tech support days, we would change out hundreds of Duracell 'industrial' alkaline batteries. Never had leakage issues except at the end of summer, especially after a heat wave. The electrolyte seemed to liquify. The same crystals in your video would wreck a pager or two. Maybe cook a few cells on the window in the extreme summer sun? Or store some others in the dark, and see how many months they last in 2020?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: sakujo7 on December 27, 2019, 03:50:33 am
No clue about the leaks but I suspect every set got reverse discharged at least a little bit initially, but some brands had a much higher self-discharge in the reverse state (due to different electrode construction?), resulting in both cells being pulled down to zero.

The batteries showing a significant negative voltage could then be considered "better" since they held the invalid state they were forced into, or "worse" since a user could try multiple reversed cells in a product without reverse polarity protection and kill it...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: EEVblog on December 27, 2019, 05:43:05 am
Quite a few people are saying aluminimum torches, so maybe I'll get a bunch of these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=aa+aluminium+flashlight&ltype=wholesale&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1&page=1 (https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=aa+aluminium+flashlight&ltype=wholesale&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1&page=1)
But they are only single AA

Several new cells, and several with various amounts of drain (two of each for more than one sample size)
And then an entire duplicate set in the thermal chamber at say 35C
Focus on Duracell first to see if we can get one to leak, then we should have a baseline to work from of other brands.
Sound plausible?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: BravoV on December 27, 2019, 05:51:03 am
Put here just for references ... YARA series ...  :palm:

-> Yet Another Rotten Alkaline , Season 1 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/yara-yet-another-rotten-alkalines-sigh/) ...  :'(

=> Yet Another Rotten Alkaline, 2nd season (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yara2-9v-alkaline-cells-do-leak-check-your-expensive-gears-often-guys/)  >:( >:( >:(

Enough said ...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: johnlsenchak on December 27, 2019, 06:14:08 am
What Causes Alkaline Batteries  to Leak
Honeywell
https://honeywellprocess-community.force.com/hpsservice/servlet/fileField?entityId=ka61a000000HrroAAC&field=File_1__Name__s
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Gary350z on December 27, 2019, 06:31:15 am
Almost all of my batteries that have leaked, and there have been many, have been under no load. The devices had been mechanically switched off (with zero current draw), or they were not in a device. The only exception is in wall clocks, where I think the load is very small, but with repeated higher current current pulses to power the mechanical movement. In your test, maybe the load was to high, and the energy was sucked out in a few days, and there was no energy left in the battery to cause it to leak (whatever the leaking mechanism is). Also, I have batteries leak and there was still plenty of charge left in the battery, so the leakage problem is not necessarily because of being discharged.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Bud on December 27, 2019, 06:34:14 am
Quite a few people are saying aluminimum torches, so maybe I'll get a bunch of these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=aa+aluminium+flashlight&ltype=wholesale&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1&page=1 (https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=aa+aluminium+flashlight&ltype=wholesale&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1&page=1)
But they are only single AA

Several new cells, and several with various amounts of drain (two of each for more than one sample size)
And then an entire duplicate set in the thermal chamber at say 35C
Focus on Duracell first to see if we can get one to leak, then we should have a baseline to work from of other brands.
Sound plausible?
So based on the Honeywell article perhaps only makes sense to use discharged to 0.8V batteries. And if to leave after with no load then store them at elevated temperature. If under load, put in a cooler.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: floobydust on December 27, 2019, 06:52:33 am
Duracell's POS seal patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US6042967A/en?) has expired, good riddance to years of garbage leaking for saving pennies Mr. Warren Buffet. Eveready US6878486 (https://patents.google.com/patent/US6878486B2/en?) mentions some tests they do.
It seems the seals are tested with temperature shifts, like a week cold, then a week at room temp, then a week hot etc. I'm not sure how hydrogen gas trickles out, or if a positive pressure pulse happens in a sealed flashlight when you screw the cover on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Black Phoenix on December 27, 2019, 09:55:16 am
All batteries that I had leaking were batteries inside equipments, normally with good charge, stored away on power off state. None of them leaked after the Best Before date, and I'm talking about from Duracell Procell/Coopertop to Energizer and Varta (3 very common brands in Portugal).. Still until now had been luck with the Panasonic branded ones, from Evolta/Platinum Power to normal Alkaline ones. Toshiba the same thing, had some, never had a problem.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: G7PSK on December 27, 2019, 10:38:26 am
To get the best chance of leakage the batteries need to be unused inside something with a small air capacity and left, something like a torch in a glove box in the car is guaranteed to leak. The smaller the battery compartment the better and yes in my experience Duracell leaks the best. Sony batteries are the least likely to leak so they are all I use in things like torches that don't get used much but need the batteries in for when they are needed,Otherwise Varta and panasonic for meters and anything used regularly if I cannot find Sony.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: WattSekunde on December 27, 2019, 01:19:17 pm
I found Sharp AA batteries in mint condition from May 1980 in an old Sharp EL-211 Calculator with unbelievable 1.5V! Made in Japan, of course! ;-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Doom-the-Squirrel on December 27, 2019, 05:13:25 pm
I've had Rayovac batteries leak at least once in a handheld weather band radio.

The thing takes three AAs.

I find this happens usually after more than a week, after the voltage has dropped below the cutoff.

Perhaps use one of those as well?


On a side note, I'm curious to see if the claim of the Energizer Ultimate Lithium not leaking is true.
So far, I've not seen them leak, but you never really know....

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: mcovington on December 27, 2019, 08:13:53 pm
We might also want to talk about best practices for cleaning up corrosion.  I use a mix of water and isopropyl alcohol; pure alcohol doesn't dissolve the stuff, and pure water doesn't evaporate fast enough afterward.  Then I clean with the smallest Dremel brush, and, when needed, re-tin the contacts, preferably with SnCu solder.  I've brought lots of equipment back to life this way, but others may have better techniques.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: mcovington on December 27, 2019, 08:23:55 pm
Here is someone who found a leaky Duracell "ProCell" that was relatively new and still measured 1.6 V:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/VintageElectronicTestEquipment/permalink/2614319435351899/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/VintageElectronicTestEquipment/permalink/2614319435351899/)

Actually, he indicates that there was more than one.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 27, 2019, 09:17:26 pm
(thinking out loud)

H2 is the most difficult gas to contain. The speed at which the atoms move and bounce against the walls of the container is the highest of all gases, about 2 km/s (*), it's also the smallest atom there is (#1 in the periodic table), and on top of that the most common H isotope has no neutrons => it's ~ the size of a single proton! Such many high speed tiny H2 projectiles often find it easier than other gasses to diffuse into the container material and can even embrittle steel.

I'd think it's no easy task to manufacture cheaply and in volume a reliably sealed battery... one that when discharged and exposed to H2 under pressure, won't ever leak a tiny amount of that nasty electrolyte.

And I'd bet higher temps play a big role here, if only due to increased H2 pressure.

P.D. @Dave: Gotcha binarysequence! I've seen your photos uploaded there!  :-+  8)

(*) At 20ºC. For comparison, CO2 atoms move at ~ 1/5th that speed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Dread on December 27, 2019, 09:32:14 pm
I have found that the cheap Chinese batteries that come with most products almost never leak while the batteries that claim superior power like the Duracells and some Energizers are the most likely to leak.

Any test that is done should at least involve taking one fresh battery out and discharging it completely and making a note of it's energy density. I think the energy density has a direct correlation on the batteries potential to leak.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: amyk on December 27, 2019, 11:22:45 pm
- No one remembers when they replace batteries and they don't leak.
- Everyone remembers when they replace batteries and they leak and damage something.
- Duracell and Energizer are the most widely used brands.

I suspect the leaks are statistically insignificant, and only happen due to imperfections in manufacturing process and natural statistical variance. If you could find a way to measure the internal pressure of the cell, that would be very interesting to see.

I found a book called "Battery Hazards and Accident Prevention" which claims alkaline cells may develop internal pressures of several hundred psi :o That explains the others here who have mentioned the AAAAs in 9V batteries exploding, and I've personally experienced an AA pop its seal while I was there, minutes after it had been rather abusively drained at over 3A (it sounded more like a very loud balloon popping, followed by a bubbling sound as the electrolyte poured out.)

Thus, discharged cells are already under high pressure, and I guess over time the seal just deterioriates and allows them to leak.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: texaspyro on December 28, 2019, 12:31:01 am
- No one remembers when they replace batteries and they don't leak.

I do... whenever I replace batteries I stick a piece of paper with the date on it into the battery holder.

And remember... they don't call them alkaleak batteries for nothing.   I now always use lithium batteries.   I've never seen one leak.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: EEVblog on December 28, 2019, 12:58:21 am
P.D. @Dave: Gotcha binarysequence! I've seen your photos uploaded there!  :-+  8)

It's hardly a secret.
They don't let you use your real name or company name as a username, it's stupid.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: T3sl4co1l on December 28, 2019, 05:10:02 am
When I saw "10 months" I was hoping it was intended to be such duration -- alas, merely forgotten that long.  D'oh!  If you're willing to continue the experiments I'd love to see a long duration discharge, perhaps using new and old batteries of mixed charge state (fulls, halfs, both)?  Preferably a statistically significant sample of each brand too, but sheesh, that'll gobble up an entire shelf pretty quickly.  :scared:

Tim
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: G7PSK on December 28, 2019, 09:50:16 am
- No one remembers when they replace batteries and they don't leak.

I do... whenever I replace batteries I stick a piece of paper with the date on it into the battery holder.

And remember... they don't call them alkaleak batteries for nothing.   I now always use lithium batteries.   I've never seen one leak.
I also remember,I write the date with a sharpie on each cell when I install it,something I have done for the past forty odd years, I also do the same for light bulbs and have found that no brand of LED bulb lasts anything like the claimed life.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: WattSekunde on December 28, 2019, 02:03:01 pm
[....]
I also remember,I write the date with a sharpie on each cell when I install it,something I have done for the past forty odd years, I also do the same for light bulbs and have found that no brand of LED bulb lasts anything like the claimed life.

I do the same since LED light bulbs on the market. In my case only the expensive of the branded ones are in every aspect better than the cheap branded or fantasy name one's. Longevity LEDs AND internal power supply, CRI (color rendering index), luminous strength stability over time. And maybe environmental friendlier production? At the end they are cheaper.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: calzap on December 28, 2019, 04:00:55 pm
If anyone is interested in the chemistry of hydrogen generation in alkalines, it's here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/alkaline-battery-leakage/msg533832/#msg533832 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/alkaline-battery-leakage/msg533832/#msg533832)

Positioning of the batteries may play a role.  In some positions, the most leak-prone part of the case may be lowest.  The liquid may eventually seep down and be forced out by hydrogen gas build-up.  The weak point may vary from battery to battery within the same brand.  Doesn't take much of a hole or weak spot for fluid to be forced-out under pressure over a period of months.

Mike in California

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on December 28, 2019, 06:04:12 pm
I had a ziploc bag of about 30 new AA Alkaline (Costco own brand) batteries go bad after about two years -  about half of them had leaked.  They had been stored in the dark, in an enclosed bag.  Temperatures would have been pretty warm during the summer, where they were placed.   My theory at the time was that the summer heat caused them to leak (increased internal pressure forcing liquid out?).

At least the ziploc bag contained the mess they made...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: calzap on December 28, 2019, 06:48:59 pm
Of the three brands  (Energizer, Duracell, Kirkland/Costco) I've used extensively,  Kirkland are the worst leakers.   

Summer heat will speed chemical reactions including Zn with hydroxide ion, which is what produces hydrogen gas in alkalines.

Mike in California
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Dread on December 29, 2019, 12:21:13 am
I had a box of 24 AC Delco AAA batteries leak in the box.  I had only used about 8 of them and left the pack in a drawer.  About a year later I came across them and it was a mess!  Also I never use Duracell, they have leaked on me several times.  I don't have too many problems with Energizer batteries, so I use those up until recently when I found EBL batteries.

EBL are the only batteries on Amazon that have an almost perfect 100% rating and they have earned it.  Its early days yet but so far none of them in my first order have leaked.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XDV4P2N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XDV4P2N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1)

EBL is so far the best battery I have found so far in the balance between power density and leak resistance.
Not one has leaked yet.

Rob
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: floobydust on December 29, 2019, 02:06:30 am
It's not really enough to just see whose battery has leaked. In research papers they inject ~1A to force hydrogen buildup, or use high temperature to add stress. When the seal spews electrolyte, wash the cell off in water and then measure that water's conductivity to determine how much leaked, to quantify the seal.

I think that batteries need to be able to "burp" hydrogen without expelling electrolyte.  With the ban on mercury, either something new is used or the cells simply evolve more gas nowadays. You could put one in oil or something, charge it and see how many bubbles it makes. PSI (kPa) the seal can hold is not the issue I think, it's the venting.

I mentioned in the other thread:
"Kirkland alkaline batteries are made by Duracell, Costco CEO Craig Jelinek mentioned in an interview.
Berkshire Hathaway ownership and cost reductions have clearly made Duracell the worst alkaline batteries I have ever seen, King of Leaks."
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: richnormand on December 29, 2019, 02:29:22 am
Relevant:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ExpectationVsReality/comments/egsktn/ive_had_them_far_less_then_10_year/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/ExpectationVsReality/comments/egsktn/ive_had_them_far_less_then_10_year/)
about Duracell leaking.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: tkamiya on December 29, 2019, 04:43:08 am
10 months is perhaps not long enough test.  I associate battery leakage with ones in long term use like clocks and calculators.  I just had such an incident.  Energizer battery leaked.  TOP (+) side is totally corroded and bottom has just small stain spots.  This clock uses one battery only.  The battery compartment was damp with liquid.  It has been use for at least a year and likely more.  Also, I only check batteries when an equipment stopped working.  That tells me leaks perhaps start AFTER the battery is completely exhausted?  I've also don't recall ever seen leakage that drains pretty fast.  (but it could mean I check/change them more often)

I seem to have bought this battery locally not from mail order by looking at past purchases log.  But I heard, on large online outlets, fakes are showing up.  So I guess (even though I bought this locally), there is no guarantee that this is a genuine Energizer.

Here are the pictures.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Dick123 on December 29, 2019, 09:27:52 am
The real "problem" with Duracell batteries are their origin IMHO. I can't remember having any leakage with those orange "Duracell Industrial"  labeled Made in Belgium, but a few incidents with those Made in USA and Made in China - especially in the last four or five years. Duracell batteries are very often bundled with those LED torches (three or four AA or AAA cells inside) used by local police and firemen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on December 29, 2019, 01:49:03 pm
[...]  That tells me leaks perhaps start AFTER the battery is completely exhausted? [...]

Plenty examples in this thread of unused batteries leaking.  It looks like temperature may be a factor, though.  Was your unit kept in a hot environment at any time?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on December 29, 2019, 01:54:39 pm
[...]  I can't remember having any leakage with those orange "Duracell Industrial"  labeled Made in Belgium [...]

If you are going to pay a premium price, why not just buy Lithium batteries?  They are the best overall (temperature range, no leaks) but do come at a cost.

Here, I have resigned myself to always buying Lithium if I can't make do with rechargeable Eneloops.

Duracell rechargeable AA cells are also very good.  I read somewhere that they are actually rebadged Eneloops.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 29, 2019, 02:15:36 pm
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D9K2H9H (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D9K2H9H)

Has anyone tried these? Must have a sort of batterizer inside, right?  :-//

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: HKJ on December 29, 2019, 02:43:07 pm
Has anyone tried these? Must have a sort of batterizer inside, right?  :-//

I have tested them and a couple of other LiIon based AA batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Dick123 on December 29, 2019, 04:13:11 pm
If you are going to pay a premium price, why not just buy Lithium batteries?  They are the best overall (temperature range, no leaks) but do come at a cost.
Here, I have resigned myself to always buying Lithium if I can't make do with rechargeable Eneloops.
...
Premium price? Here in the Netherlands and in Germany you pay less than 23 Euro (incl. tax) for 100 (one hundred!) Vartra Industrial Pro AAA cells. For the very same price you only get 20 Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells. So it depends on the circumstances and/or the devices which one would be the better choice. Like you I always use the (white) rechargeable Eneloops whenever possible but sometimes devices denies to work properly with these. And even Lithium batteries can't replace regular Alkalines all the time. Or haven't you wondered why manufacturers of electronic devices did not mention them in their instruction manuals?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 29, 2019, 04:37:35 pm
Has anyone tried these? Must have a sort of batterizer inside, right?  :-//
I have tested them and a couple of other LiIon based AA batteries.

And what's inside, a charger and an LDO? Or something else?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: HKJ on December 29, 2019, 06:25:49 pm

And what's inside, a charger and an LDO? Or something else?

A LiIon battery, a LiIon charge chip and and a buck converter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 29, 2019, 06:49:10 pm
A LiIon battery, a LiIon charge chip and and a buck converter.

Then surely the discharge curve looks like a cliff, right? Doesn't it self discharge too quickly due to the quiescent currents of all that jazz?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: HKJ on December 29, 2019, 07:00:55 pm
Then surely the discharge curve looks like a cliff, right? Doesn't it self discharge too quickly due to the quiescent currents of all that jazz?

(https://lygte-info.dk/pic/Batteries2013NiMH/Blackube%20AA%202250mWh%20USB%20(Black)/Blackube%20AA%202250mWh%20USB%20(Black)-Capacity.png)

It do not work with battery gauges.
It will, at least, keep charge for months.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: tkamiya on December 29, 2019, 07:17:43 pm
Dave,

I just realized I do have a CONTROLLED TEST.  All of my wall clocks are the same.  Same brand, same make, and same type.  Batteries are one AA each.  I have been using Energizer and Duracell for most times.  Occasionally Amazon Basics and only once, Chinese branded and named (that I can read) type that came with the clock. 

I found those that came with the clock always runs out in 6 months or less and they always leak.  Brand name ones are like 50/50.  They have been kept inside of my house so temperature and humidity is pretty constant. 

I never had leaking brand-new batteries....
I was actually noticing batteries leak a lot more often in last 5 to 10 years than before.  I wonder if something drastic changed in the industry as a whole?  Like different chemistry because something got banned, thinner metal containment, etc, etc, etc? 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: coppice on December 29, 2019, 07:18:42 pm
I have sent things containing alkaline batteries by sea a few times, mostly by accident (i.e. forgetting to remove the batteries before shipment). I find that regardless of the age of the batteries, a lot of them have leaked by the time they are delivered. I suspect something about sea travel might be provoking leakage, although it might well just be bad luck. Has anyone else noticed this?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 29, 2019, 07:30:52 pm

(cliff img)


Thanks! WOW, looks like Dover!

Quote
It will, at least, keep charge for months.

And therein lies the problem... that's the reason why I don't like rechargeables: can't keep them charged in the drawer, because when you want to use them... you find they're discharged!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: NiHaoMike on December 29, 2019, 07:36:33 pm
And therein lies the problem... that's the reason why I don't like rechargeables: can't keep them charged in the drawer, because when you want to use them... you find they're discharged!
Eneloops can hold charge for years.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Bud on December 29, 2019, 09:02:16 pm
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Dick123 on December 29, 2019, 09:12:08 pm
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
I once was told by a Norwegian friend that those IKEA LADDA AA and AAA rechargeable batteries are coming from the same Japanese factory as the current Panasonic Eneloop Pro.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 29, 2019, 09:17:16 pm
Eneloops can hold charge for years.

Quote
Low self-discharge
The low self-discharge nickel metal hydride battery (LSD NiMH) has a significantly lower rate of self-discharge. The innovation was introduced in 2005 by Sanyo, under their Eneloop brand.[31] By using an improved electrode separator and improved positive electrode, manufacturers claim the cells retain 70–85% of their capacity when stored one year at 20 °C (68 °F), compared to about half for normal NiMH batteries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93metal_hydride_battery#Self-discharge

What do you think is closer to the real thing, 70 or 85%? Also, where I live it's ~ always hotter than 20ºC.

I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking.

Neither do I.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Bud on December 29, 2019, 09:30:03 pm
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
I once was told by a Norwegian friend that those IKEA LADDA AA and AAA rechargeable batteries are coming from the same Japanese factory as the current Panasonic Eneloop Pro.
I am using just regular ,not rechargeable ones.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: HKJ on December 29, 2019, 09:50:07 pm
What do you think is closer to the real thing, 70 or 85%? Also, where I live it's ~ always hotter than 20ºC.

Eneloop claims 70% charge left after 10 years for their 1900mAh cells.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: floobydust on December 29, 2019, 09:51:04 pm
"...  In the past mercury was often used in these cells to minimize the generation of hydrogen gas due to undesired electrochemical reactions within the cells. Due to environmental concerns, efforts have been under way to reduce or eliminate the addition of mercury to alkaline cells. As a result of other changes in materials and cell designs, most large consumer alkaline batteries currently on the market contain no added mercury. However, the elimination of mercury has been more of a challenge in some types of aqueous alkaline cells, particularly button cells and metal-air cells of all sizes.

Causes of leakage in aqueous alkaline cells include hydrogen gas evolution, wicking of electrolyte through seal members and sealing interfaces and electrochemically driven creepage of electrolyte through sealing interfaces. Hydrogen gas, which can be generated by the corrosion of the negative electrode active material and other metals (including current collectors and contaminants) in contact with alkaline electrolyte, can result in increased internal cell pressure, which can drive electrolyte through weak areas in the cell housing. Electrolyte can wick by capillary action through pores and other openings in seal members and between seal members and other components that seal electrolyte within the cell housing.

Capillary wicking can be accelerated by electrocapillary drive when a metal at a sealing interface is at a electrical potential (e.g., a metal component of the cell container in electrical contact with one of the electrodes), since a charged surface is more easily wetted by electrolyte. Electrochemically driven creepage can occur between a seal member and a metal housing component at a negative potential (e.g., a negative electrode casing, cover or current collector). This creepage is the result of hydroxyl ion production from the reduction of oxygen and/or the reduction of water on the negatively charged metal substrate at the leading edge of the electrolyte. The negative potential of the metal substrate, in combination with the localized high concentration of hydroxyl ions can draw water and/or electrolyte into this reaction zone, increasing the volume of liquid and forcing the liquid layer farther from the bulk electrolyte in the cell. This phenomenon is described in detail by Hull et al., in “Why Alkaline Cells Leak”, J. Electrochem. Soc.: Electrochemical Science and Technology, vol. 124, no. 3 (March 1977), p. 332-339; by Davis et al. in “Aspects of Alkaline Cell Leakage”, J. Electrochem. Soc.: Electrochemical Science and Technology, vol. 125, no. 12 (December 1978), p. 1919-1923; and by Baugh et al. in “A Mechanism for Alkaline Cell Leakage”, Journal of Applied Electrochemistry, 8 (1978), p. 253-263."

source: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7632605B2/en? (https://patents.google.com/patent/US7632605B2/en?)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on December 29, 2019, 10:14:25 pm
If you are going to pay a premium price, why not just buy Lithium batteries?  They are the best overall (temperature range, no leaks) but do come at a cost.
Here, I have resigned myself to always buying Lithium if I can't make do with rechargeable Eneloops.
...
Premium price? Here in the Netherlands and in Germany you pay less than 23 Euro (incl. tax) for 100 (one hundred!) Vartra Industrial Pro AAA cells. For the very same price you only get 20 Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells. So it depends on the circumstances and/or the devices which one would be the better choice. Like you I always use the (white) rechargeable Eneloops whenever possible but sometimes devices denies to work properly with these. And even Lithium batteries can't replace regular Alkalines all the time. Or haven't you wondered why manufacturers of electronic devices did not mention them in their instruction manuals?

I only use Lithium cells in low current / long service time applications, especially stuff used outdoors (to cope with hot/cold temperatures).   I doubt that I would be able to use a pack of 20 in less than several years - the price just isn't an issue, compared with the risk of damage from leaking garbage alkalines.

I have never seen, and can't think of a device that wouldn't work with a Lithium battery?   -  nor have I ever come across a device that won't work with an Eneloop (or the Eneloop rebadged products, e.g. Ikea Ladda, Duracell Rechargeable, etc.) -  in fact, many devices work better with a rechargeable than a regular alkaline AA.  E.g. camera equipment loves rechargeables (probably due to relatively high peak current draws).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: floobydust on December 30, 2019, 04:24:48 am
Energizer lithium (https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf) has high terminal voltage up to 1.83V which can affect some devices. L91 AA (https://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf) 3,000mAh, about twice the capacity of alkaline cells and triple the price. I use them because they work in Canadian winters down to -40°C.

I have used 9V Ultralife lithium batteries for Fluke multimeters, because it's a $500 meter and my employer is paying for the batteries so why cheap out. I saw an old one balloon out and go prego after their rated 10 years but no leaks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Muttley Snickers on December 30, 2019, 05:01:21 am
I have never seen, and can't think of a device that wouldn't work with a Lithium battery? ......(snip)

I know of only one device that was affected by the higher battery voltage.   :-DMM

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-bm235-does-not-accept-lithium-batteries/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-bm235-does-not-accept-lithium-batteries/)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bm235-lithium-battery-mod/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bm235-lithium-battery-mod/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Electro Detective on December 30, 2019, 09:44:55 am

The pocket stuffing battery manufacturers should be doing some real R+D on battery leakage instead of package Disclaimers and circus styled advertising,

and not let it get dumped on Youtube battlers with limited time and resources to do THEIR WORK.  ???

Has anyone considered the metal to metal reactions of the battery terminals, powered device terminals
and PCB tracks etc ? I've seen all three go bad news  :o

I'm currently rolling with Coles and Woolies batteries, and Bunnings flogging the Narva brand.
so far so good  :phew: and CHEAP

The ALDI and Enerjizzzer batteries are to be avoided like the plague  :scared: :scared: 
once ok Duracells have now become a coin toss,
Lithiums in sealed packets have leaked on me at room temperature,

and well, it seems we'll all have to put a reminder in phone calenders to check and toss batteries every 6 months,
and be criminally out of pocket,
or be mega out of pocket if any battery driven test gear gets trashed by leakage

Shame on these manufacturers that don't gas (The Finger x2 Smilie)   >:(


Thanks to DJ for having an unpaid lengthy go at it  :-+

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on December 30, 2019, 10:21:50 am
DJ!?!? Hahaha  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: TheDane on December 30, 2019, 02:29:38 pm
I was thinking the leak issue might be caused by a different phenomena - Energy (electron) hammering?

Take a look at the water hammering effect, a phenomenon explained in this YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLmVFAFjn4&t=45s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLmVFAFjn4&t=45s) - What is Water Hammer?

Yes, obviously water is heavy and it is easy to measure flow - the electron also should weigh something and does not like compressing, so in my mind it can (quite possibly) do the same. Pipe or wire as the conductor from storage container, and when switched on/off the negative effect breaks seals 'everywhere', be it in walls, floors or in electronic devices.

I haven't looked at the differential probe schematics, but my guess is that it uses an internal switching power supply. Might be why a relatively new battery failed.
Long wires, with a bit of inductance - and impressive pressure spikes can be measured in form of voltage noise. (And who puts a cap over the battery compartment  :wtf:)

Loading the batteries with a constant load, brand new from the package - and then with a resistor, do not stress the system much.
Loading the batteries with a pulsing load, brand new from the package - and then keeping pulsing it, surely stresses the seals much more.

Loading/pulsing batteries in the original plastic wrapping might also occour, especially if there is salt and moisture present. Plastic is made up of carbon, which is conductive under the 'right' circumstances. Plastics differ, which might be why some leak in package and others don't.

Happy New Year, and please do the test again with some switching supplies  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: T3sl4co1l on December 30, 2019, 03:40:02 pm
Electrons don't "water hammer", at least not in the nonlinear way that fluids can.  Aside from contrived systems, current flow is entirely described by linear wave equations (and electron flow, by thermal drift; but actual electron flow in conductors is highly irrelevant for the most part).

Water hammer is most directly analogous to flyback from switching a coil.  There is some current flow, then it stops abruptly; the pressure shoots up in response.  The peak depends on a number of factors (rate of change, capacitance and resistance), and the flux (pressure * time) depends on the length of the pipe (effectively, the inductance, as a pipe is more of a lossy transmission line than a general wire).

Which no one's accused of damaging a battery.


The idea about mechanical stress... is right, to a certain degree, but so far off as to be considered fringe.

In short, I think you will find the coupling factors are around, I don't know, something like 10^8 too small.

When we reason about multiple effects, we must consider the significance of each, rank them, and progressively sum up the result.  When we reach an adequate explanation, we have no need to consider further effects.  Especially when the magnitude of those effects is expected to be far smaller than our remaining error so could never possibly account for the difference.  We can still find it useful to contemplate those low-order effects, in order to bring attention to them in the rare cases where they are significant, but they can otherwise be ignored, and should be.

Say we're thinking about the impedance of the battery.  What contributes?  Well, we might have wires, contacts, their resistance and inductance, capacitance of the battery plates over the electrolyte, conductivity of the electrolyte, ionic diffusion in the electrolyte and electrodes, etc.  We can come up with a magnitude estimate for each, sum them up, compare to our measurement, and figure whether we've got a good match or not.

It might plausibly be a part of this same figure, to consider the electrostriction, magnetostriction, piezoelectricity or other electromechanical effects.  (We might measure in terms of the electrical --> mechanical effect, but there will necessarily be a reciprocal effect, so this isn't a poorly motivated example.)  In general, a substance will expand, contract or shear in some way when exposed to fields.

Most substances, the magnitude is so close to zero as to be ignored.

I think you will find this is the case with batteries.

Further couplings are the mechanical nature of the battery itself (if some part of the construction expands or contracts, what effect does that have on the seal?), and external influences (the cover?).

Or put another way: take a wire and a fully charged cell.  Briefly short the cell.  How much sound does the cell make?

Can you even tell it's making any sound at all, besides the wire sparking?  (Slightly more subtle experiment, use a MOSFET and resistor so the current is more repeatable and the switch is silent without sparking.)  Can you measure (say with a microphone, micrometer, interferometer, etc.) if it's moving at any magnitude or rate, that isn't consistent with, say, thermal expansion?


So, you're not wrong, but I think it's more interesting to discuss how you're not wrong, than to just dismiss your points outright.

I will however note this,

Plastic is made up of carbon, which is conductive under the 'right' circumstances.

is just out and out wrong.

Tim
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: joeqsmith on December 30, 2019, 03:48:05 pm
Now I'm thinking that perhaps, rather than run different brands, take the most notorious brand (Duracell) and just test those to discover the best mechanism for leakage FIRST, before testing all the brands?

And maybe get a bunch of small $2 farting novelty gadgets that takes two AA's that has a small standby current. I could get dozens of these on AliExpress and run various combinations.
Product recommendations?

If you believe Duracell is indeed the most notorious brand for leaking, why do you supply them with your high end 121GW?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on December 30, 2019, 04:40:02 pm
^   :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: calzap on December 30, 2019, 05:41:05 pm
Yeah, elemental carbon can conduct electricity.  But plastics don't conduct unless they are specifically made to conduct by addition of metal or elemental carbon.  There's a reason chips,  relay bases, switches, etc. are imbedded in plastic. For plastics that don't conduct (the vast majority), the only "circumstance" that might make them conductive is partial incineration.

Mike in California

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Dick123 on December 30, 2019, 06:59:54 pm
...I have never seen, and can't think of a device that wouldn't work with a Lithium battery? ....
Well, Hioki recently  kindly wrote me this interesting email:

Quote
...
Thank you for contacting us with regards to the battery of DT422x.

It can be used as the power supply for DT422x series, however,
we don't recommend using the Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries.

We've tested DT422x series's performance with voltage supply up to 1.725 V.
More than this voltage, we can't guarantee the accuracy.
Initially, we recommend checking the voltage whether the voltage doesn't excess 1.725V.

The remained battery indicator would behave differently against
when an alkaline battery is used because of the different discharge profile.
The battery indicator will quickly drop after the second (the remained battery is two) lights up.

Kindly please note these 2 points when you use the Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries.
...

But of course you're right that the Hioki DT422x runs fine with an Eneloop, although the  battery indicator don't work properly (that's mentioned in the manual). BTW I will gonna write a review in the equipment section about the Hioki DR4224 later next February since there is very little user feedback about this series on the Internet.

 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: TheDane on December 30, 2019, 07:18:28 pm
Full water bottle bounces as bad as a full battery
Empty water bottle bounces all over, just as empty battery
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: TheDane on December 30, 2019, 07:38:11 pm
Yeah, elemental carbon can conduct electricity.  But plastics don't conduct unless they are specifically made to conduct by addition of metal or elemental carbon.  There's a reason chips,  relay bases, switches, etc. are imbedded in plastic. For plastics that don't conduct (the vast majority), the only "circumstance" that might make them conductive is partial incineration.

Mike in California

Pyrolytic arcing occurs when the outlets, which are plastic, become conductive. This plastic plate opens an electrical path, causing sporadic arcing to occur ...
Electrical facts, 3
https://books.google.dk/books?id=kLEGn4nBXnUC&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=plastic+sporadic+conductive&source=bl&ots=t6b81lVy7l&sig=ACfU3U3FCBUz6Zga_eU8mVuipjtwfEMv1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR5bO9jt7mAhVBL1AKHVD0Cp8Q6AEwAHoECAgQAQ (https://books.google.dk/books?id=kLEGn4nBXnUC&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=plastic+sporadic+conductive&source=bl&ots=t6b81lVy7l&sig=ACfU3U3FCBUz6Zga_eU8mVuipjtwfEMv1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR5bO9jt7mAhVBL1AKHVD0Cp8Q6AEwAHoECAgQAQ)


You can make plastic conductive by punching and bending a complex metal sheet into the plastic itself, but the process is cumbersome and makes the plastic heavier and inflexible.
(Battery terminals moving and grinding up against and around in plastic wrapping during shipment and storage due to temperature variations)
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electricity-conducting-plastics (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electricity-conducting-plastics)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Electro Detective on December 30, 2019, 09:16:30 pm
Now I'm thinking that perhaps, rather than run different brands, take the most notorious brand (Duracell) and just test those to discover the best mechanism for leakage FIRST, before testing all the brands?

And maybe get a bunch of small $2 farting novelty gadgets that takes two AA's that has a small standby current. I could get dozens of these on AliExpress and run various combinations.
Product recommendations?

If you believe Duracell is indeed the most notorious brand for leaking, why do you supply them with your high end 121GW?


This is NEWS to me  ???  I don't know when Duracell scored this 'notorious brand for leaking' bum rap,
when Enerjizzzer has ruled for years as undisputed King and Queen Of Spewage Land since the 1990s, perhaps the '80s too, for expensive batteries  :clap:
 
Duracell, Panasonic, Toshiba and Tandy/Radio Shack brands were a better bet to not leak in most scenarios.

'Genuine' Duracell 9 volt batteries 'may' still be the best 'off the shelf' bet for smoke detectors afaik + afaict,
and as a side bonus, once swapped out of smoke detectors, still work fine at 8.xx volts in multimeters and other low current draw equipments that can tolerate and work from 7 to 9.6 volts.

It's also poor economics to think DJ somehow went cheap on meter accessories.. perhaps chasing some Yo-Yo rapper 'notoriety' ? lol   by putting in top dollar Duracells
instead of  -GOLDEN POWER-  or decent Coles alkalines at a third? of the price  (oh, duh..)   :palm:

And besides, once any meter is in new owners hands, it's their baby to manage the battery dept. not the sellers.

fwiw most times I'll toss supplied batteries into a spares tray, and fit and use what I know,
after marking a four digit month/year date on them.

EDIT: where is proven independent statistical data that puts Duracell at the top of the 'notorious' list ?  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: JustMeHere on December 31, 2019, 04:30:12 am
I found a pair of batteries that had leaked in the bottom of a change jar.  One was at .2 v and the other was at 1.2v.  I believe discharge has nothing to do with this.  Both batteries could have been subjected to 100+ F heat at some point in their life.  (Very likely.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Bud on December 31, 2019, 05:28:44 am
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
I once was told by a Norwegian friend that those IKEA LADDA AA and AAA rechargeable batteries are coming from the same Japanese factory as the current Panasonic Eneloop Pro.
I am using just regular ,not rechargeable ones.

Correction: the non-rechargeable IKEA batteries are branded "Alkalisk", someone tested them here:

https://rightbattery.com/859-1-5v-aa-ikea-alkalisk-alkaline-battery-tests/ (https://rightbattery.com/859-1-5v-aa-ikea-alkalisk-alkaline-battery-tests/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: TheDane on December 31, 2019, 07:51:36 am
Common to all alkaline batteries are the negative cap,
Circumcise the bottom cⓇap,
See if the batt still does its attack, on itttz-
Surroundings and other batt.

Infected by the SoC - Beat it to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV611OnWnhY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV611OnWnhY)

Btw, please fix the forum so when linking to an YouTube video, the time stamp also works.
(Would have linked to the leakage testing video on the bottom half, but it don't work)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: joeqsmith on December 31, 2019, 06:23:07 pm
Now I'm thinking that perhaps, rather than run different brands, take the most notorious brand (Duracell) and just test those to discover the best mechanism for leakage FIRST, before testing all the brands?

And maybe get a bunch of small $2 farting novelty gadgets that takes two AA's that has a small standby current. I could get dozens of these on AliExpress and run various combinations.
Product recommendations?

If you believe Duracell is indeed the most notorious brand for leaking, why do you supply them with your high end 121GW?


This is NEWS to me  ???  I don't know when Duracell scored this 'notorious brand for leaking' bum rap,
when Enerjizzzer has ruled for years as undisputed King and Queen Of Spewage Land since the 1990s, perhaps the '80s too, for expensive batteries  :clap:
 
Duracell, Panasonic, Toshiba and Tandy/Radio Shack brands were a better bet to not leak in most scenarios.

'Genuine' Duracell 9 volt batteries 'may' still be the best 'off the shelf' bet for smoke detectors afaik + afaict,
and as a side bonus, once swapped out of smoke detectors, still work fine at 8.xx volts in multimeters and other low current draw equipments that can tolerate and work from 7 to 9.6 volts.

It's also poor economics to think DJ somehow went cheap on meter accessories.. perhaps chasing some Yo-Yo rapper 'notoriety' ? lol   by putting in top dollar Duracells
instead of  -GOLDEN POWER-  or decent Coles alkalines at a third? of the price  (oh, duh..)   :palm:


And besides, once any meter is in new owners hands, it's their baby to manage the battery dept. not the sellers.

fwiw most times I'll toss supplied batteries into a spares tray, and fit and use what I know,
after marking a four digit month/year date on them.

EDIT: where is proven independent statistical data that puts Duracell at the top of the 'notorious' list ?  :popcorn:

If it's really this brand in particular and they were expected to leak in a fairly short time, based on Dave still selling the old revision of meters from the kickstart, that's a long time for the batteries to sit.  Why risk it?  Save on shipping and cost of the batteries and just don't include them.    Still, obviously they are shipping them with the Duracell and I am curious why they would use the most notorious brand known to leak? 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Bud on December 31, 2019, 06:33:03 pm
Common to all alkaline batteries are the negative cap,
Circumcise the bottom cⓇap,
See if the batt still does its attack, on itttz-
Surroundings and other batt.

Is this a rap song of a haiku ?  :o
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: McBryce on December 31, 2019, 06:38:52 pm
You're doing it wrong Dave. Put them in something expensive with hard to reach contacts and they'll leak within days. :)

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: darik on January 01, 2020, 12:43:03 am
You're doing it wrong Dave. Put them in something expensive with hard to reach contacts and they'll leak within days. :)

McBryce.

If you really want them to leak put them in something that holds them in a snug fitting tube that only opens at one end. That they will permanently glue themselves into when they leak so you can't extricate them without destroying the device.

I've lost 3 really nice flashlights and an apple wireless keyboard that way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: amyk on January 01, 2020, 10:06:56 pm
If you really want them to leak put them in something that holds them in a snug fitting tube that only opens at one end. That they will permanently glue themselves into when they leak so you can't extricate them without destroying the device.

I've lost 3 really nice flashlights and an apple wireless keyboard that way.
When that happens, you can drill them out with a big enough drill bit. It's messy but works.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: McBryce on January 02, 2020, 10:12:24 am
I had a Maglite that had leaked so much that it fused both endcaps to the body and I couldn't even open it to drill the batteries out. :(


McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: alegend on January 02, 2020, 02:03:56 pm
Hi Dave,

My two cents: I have found alkalines leaked more not when completely discharged, but rather when left on a trickle discharge, say 2uA to 5uA. It could be just a coincidence but that is what I have experienced....

-Al.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: G7PSK on January 02, 2020, 03:09:35 pm
Perhaps there is one factor not being considered here. Hydrogen embrittlement of the stainless steel shel of the battery which can lead to micro cracks forming. I have never looked at a leaking battery with a microscope,the idea has only just occurred to me. although Hydrogen embrittlement in metal  is something was already aware of it has just never crossed my mind before that the reason batteries leak could be this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: TheDane on January 02, 2020, 04:26:16 pm
Perhaps there is one factor not being considered here. Hydrogen embrittlement of the stainless steel shel of the battery which can lead to micro cracks forming. I have never looked at a leaking battery with a microscope,the idea has only just occurred to me. although Hydrogen embrittlement in metal  is something was already aware of it has just never crossed my mind before that the reason batteries leak could be this.

Batteries always seem to leak from the bottom, in my experience.
Top nipple is often extruded, so imho it should be more prone to leaks - if the metal case does crack from hydrogen embrittlement :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Bud on January 04, 2020, 05:37:05 am
Found in the drawer a 10 years old garden light rechargeable battery leaked from the positive terminal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: TheDane on January 04, 2020, 08:16:45 am
Found in the drawer a 10 years old garden light rechargeable battery leaked from the positive terminal.

Ni-Cd is a different type of battery than alkaline (Secondary cell).
It seems the seal is (always?) in the top/positive end as shown in the video below. Ni-Mh batteries too.

Electro-chemistry / Secondary Cells /Nickel Cadmium battery/Lead–acid storage battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0VSVy-_IIM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0VSVy-_IIM)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: BrianHG on January 04, 2020, 08:50:26 am
Electrons don't "water hammer", at least not in the nonlinear way that fluids can.  Aside from contrived systems, current flow is entirely described by linear wave equations (and electron flow, by thermal drift; but actual electron flow in conductors is highly irrelevant for the most part).

Water hammer is most directly analogous to flyback from switching a coil.  There is some current flow, then it stops abruptly; the pressure shoots up in response.  The peak depends on a number of factors (rate of change, capacitance and resistance), and the flux (pressure * time) depends on the length of the pipe (effectively, the inductance, as a pipe is more of a lossy transmission line than a general wire).

Which no one's accused of damaging a battery.


The idea about mechanical stress... is right, to a certain degree, but so far off as to be considered fringe.

In short, I think you will find the coupling factors are around, I don't know, something like 10^8 too small.

Both you and 'TheDane' with his previous post 'water hammer video' are looking at this the wrong way, but the 'water hammer' effect idea looked at from another angle may still hold a bit of merit.  With a new batter, switching on a toy DC motor train, or, a flashlight does have a small short current surge as the motor spins up, or the filament begins cool, or at your devices potential DC filter cap begins from 0v.  Though quick and within tolerances of batteries, this pulse of current may have a super thin layer effect between the battery's electrolyte and zinc & manganese dioxide electrodes generating a slow progressive reaction over time, even if this current pulse only happened once to the battery, which may cause the battery's electrolyte to expand out and leak through a process similar to crystal growth.  During the manufacturing process, the single test load may already be just large enough to begin this process for some batteries.

On the other hand, it could just be a bad batch of batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: TheDane on January 04, 2020, 09:19:21 am
My two cents: I have found alkalines leaked more not when completely discharged, but rather when left on a trickle discharge, say 2uA to 5uA. It could be just a coincidence but that is what I have experienced....

You're not the only one - which is why I suggested (on page 3) to add switchmode loads to the leakage test, if performed again.

Batteries that leak while inside tight flash light tubes could be explained by the plastic cover becomming conductive (from grinding against the case, crushing the plastics into the metal) - sporatically, which acts as a lightning surge before the pathway evaporates away. This would 'hammer' the battery, causing it to stress.

Batteries located at the bottom of a cup or in an angled container, especially with excessive temperature variations, move ever so slightly - zap  and d®ead :horse: leaks
Lots of examples - I'm not saying I have seen the lights (or heard the fizzzingly sounds) - but there's a logical explanation.

Anybody who explained why an empty battery jumps all over (just like an empty water bottle) - and the full ones also behave similarly?
- I haven't found an answer to that one, and I know it has been discussed on the forum
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: geogeo on January 05, 2020, 08:16:35 pm
Quite a few people are saying aluminimum torches, so maybe I'll get a bunch of these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=aa+aluminium+flashlight&ltype=wholesale&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1&page=1 (https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=aa+aluminium+flashlight&ltype=wholesale&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1&page=1)
But they are only single AA


Single cells leak too. My favorite flashlights have been single AA types and I've lost a few of them to leaking Alkalines. Couldn't get the batteries out to tell what brand they were. Lost a few larger maglights to bad batteries as well.

I don't know that being in a sealed tube causes any more or faster leaking, but it could be more memorable because it isn't recoverable. Usually when I find leakers in other things, I can clean the terminals and carry on using the thing.

Hopefully those days are behind me, no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on January 05, 2020, 10:06:20 pm
[...] no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.

I'm with you on that.  I've simply stopped using alkaline batteries altogether and don't miss them at all.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Electro Detective on January 07, 2020, 09:59:11 pm
[...] no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.

I'm with you on that.  I've simply stopped using alkaline batteries altogether and don't miss them at all.

I sincerely hope you both have a long run with that  :-+  but I've been there already and lost/still losing  :horse:

They all leak eventually and at random, be they top dollar brand name, cheapies, dodgy knockoffs, high tech, latest tech, 'advanced tech' oooh... ::) Star Fleet endorsed,  blah..
it's still the same old game of battery leak russian roulette  :scared: 
with our pockets the loser on trashed gear, unpaid/wasted time repairs, inconvenience due to device failure, especially under emergency conditions,
and if the gear somehow miraculously survives with nothing major eaten, vaporized, or corroded beyond recognition,
there's yet another battery purchase on top to get the ball rolling again..and repeat the pita vicious circle  |O

The deal is batteries are encased in devices packed with other electronic components that emanate their own chemical odors
and under pressure, temperature variations, little to no air flow, 
as well as whatever is going on inside the battery itself,
and the metal battery terminals are rubbing up on the device terminals which who knows what sort of cheap/cheapest plating it may be etc etc
That said, it may not be just the batteries to fully blame for all the disasters.

Whatever the reasons, it's the battery manufacturers PAID JOB to R+D and sort this out ASAP, and so less of their sub par product goes into the landfills before their time,
which is another byproduct of leaking batteries they are responsible for,
not the urban battler who forgets to check their torch and multimeter, loaded up with bunny endorsed  :palm:  big dollar batteries 

Sooner or later, hopefully MUCH LATER..any battery will pop and leak somehow  :-BROKE  >:(  :(   

The manufacturers today are too busy bean counting, back patting, perving at profit pie charts, partying hard and doing that thing with the Xerox photocopier  :D
or flogging the business to the next lot of cashed up clueless corporat raidertards,

so in the meantime they advertise hard with circus styled ads,
hoping connedsumers buy and use them up asap, toss, and buy new ones = no problems for them  :phew:

i.e. if you've got gear you can't afford to replace or have it fail at the wrong time/danger etc DO NOT TRUST ANY BATTERIES for unattended long term, period.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: schmitt trigger on January 07, 2020, 10:28:44 pm
" if you've got gear you can't afford to replace or have it fail at the wrong time/danger etc DO NOT TRUST ANY BATTERIES for unattended long term, period."

Sage words.

I had a *priceless* Zenith Transoceanic 1000 multi-band receiver that was given to me by my late grandfather, that became a casualty of such a dumb mistake.
The unit employed nine D batteries, and those belched industrial quantities of corrosive goo.

If you aren't familiar with this beautiful radio, here is a link:

http://elmphotography.com/radios/radio23.htm (http://elmphotography.com/radios/radio23.htm)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: McBryce on January 08, 2020, 07:46:03 am
" if you've got gear you can't afford to replace or have it fail at the wrong time/danger etc DO NOT TRUST ANY BATTERIES for unattended long term, period."

Sage words.

I had a *priceless* Zenith Transoceanic 1000 multi-band receiver that was given to me by my late grandfather, that became a casualty of such a dumb mistake.
The unit employed nine D batteries, and those belched industrial quantities of corrosive goo.

If you aren't familiar with this beautiful radio, here is a link:

http://elmphotography.com/radios/radio23.htm (http://elmphotography.com/radios/radio23.htm)

Very nice radio... which reminds me. I have one of these at home full of D Cells. I should probably check them.

McBryce.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: joeqsmith on January 09, 2020, 01:33:27 pm
A few years ago, I was given an old meter that was found in a house that was being torn down.  I decided to restore it.  It's over 40 years old and I strongly suspect it had the original batteries in it.  These batteries were advertised not to leak.   These are a little shorter than what we have today so I decided to save them as part of the restore process and ended up pulling them apart.   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/history-of-tachikawa-(tmk)/msg1318350/#msg1318350 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/history-of-tachikawa-(tmk)/msg1318350/#msg1318350)

The video link showing the batteries.   The thick plastic and seal did it's job.
https://youtu.be/2H6YKvnOQyw?t=529 (https://youtu.be/2H6YKvnOQyw?t=529)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Electro Detective on January 09, 2020, 10:30:20 pm
The battery manufacturers could lift their game and PAY+Royalty percentage, someone clued (DJ with select EEVblog members?) to play around with the current designs, look at past products,   
armed with some chemically resistant plastics, seals, relief chambers and absorbant materials etc etc etc to improve on the leakage aspects,
without having to drastically change the cheapskate investard driven current manufacturing and assembly processes. 

It's more than likely been done already last century, when people gas, were genuinely 'reputation driven' and didn't want comebacks and lost sales. 
Now that 'old' documented paperwork has likely been binned and landfillized after the usual corporat takeover
and 'old tech/what is this stuff?/get rid of it' purge by the new staff, to impress someone with their clueless dumbass paper shred efficiency come OCD affliction 
and to annoy any remaining previous staff about to get the ass soon anyway. A childish playground power thang..   ::)

The Worm Kingdom had the last access to documented knowledge on how to construct a decent leak free battery,
so now the humans above either have to start over to 'reinvent the battery'
or keep dealing with collateral damage from leaking batteries  :horse:

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on January 10, 2020, 01:12:50 am
[...] no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.

I'm with you on that.  I've simply stopped using alkaline batteries altogether and don't miss them at all.

I sincerely hope you both have a long run with that  :-+  but I've been there already and lost/still losing  :horse:
[...]

I have never seen an Eneloop leak, nor have I seen a lithium battery leak.  Are you saying I've just been lucky?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: coppice on January 10, 2020, 01:49:05 am
I have never seen an Eneloop leak, nor have I seen a lithium battery leak.  Are you saying I've just been lucky?
Primary lithium batteries can leak. Not as quickly as alkaline cells, but they can leak. Many primary lithium cells are specified in detail so you can predict their leakage over 10 years and use them for low consumption things like RTCs. However, some designs will leak before they get to that 10 year point. On the plus side, their leakage specs are usually realistic, so they will still be supplying the RTC OK. :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: floobydust on January 11, 2020, 09:52:58 am
I've seen primary lithium/SOCl2 (toxic) spew electrolyte all over the pcb at the 5-7 year point.
Tadiran (http://www.tadiranbat.com/index.html) now making "40-year Lifetime" claims in many publications  ::)
Bel Wafer style like TL-2186, TL-4986, TL-5186 - obsolete 2105 but replaced by TL-2450.
It's a laser-welded metal can and that seam corrodes and then the battery leaks HCL and kills the pcb.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: G7PSK on January 11, 2020, 09:59:45 am
I've seen primary lithium/SOCl2 (toxic) spew electrolyte all over the pcb at the 5-7 year point.
Tadiran (http://www.tadiranbat.com/index.html) now making "40-year Lifetime" claims in many publications  ::)
Bel Wafer style like TL-2186, TL-4986, TL-5186 - obsolete 2105 but replaced by TL-2450.
It's a laser-welded metal can and that seam corrodes and then the battery leaks HCL and kills the pcb.
Stainless steel is not proof against HCL you need a nickel based alloy for that so if lithium batteries are made from st/st they are bound to corrode and leak especially at welds. Under stress even mild steel performs better when exposed to chlorides.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: floobydust on January 12, 2020, 01:02:10 am
The laser-welds rough and nibbled/removed a fair bit of metal, so I think thin spots corroded. I don't know what metal the can is made of.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: coppice on January 12, 2020, 03:20:19 am
Tadiran (http://www.tadiranbat.com/index.html) now making "40-year Lifetime" claims in many publications  ::)
Its not just Tadiran. There are a couple of US companies offering surface mount solid primary batteries which claim 30 or 40 years of life. You can only expect a small percentage of the capacity over those lives, though. The rest is lost to self leakage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on September 05, 2020, 07:56:39 pm
These are brand new, never been used, AAA Duracell Duralock batteries. Duracell marketing claims that
"Duralock technology keeps unused batteries fresh and powered for up to 10 years in ambient storage. So you can stock up on Duracell batteries without worry."

Well stocking up with these has made me regret it. They were bought a few years ago, and kept in a below ground room which has a relatively stable temperature. The date printed on the batteries is Dec 2025. The goop seems to come out of both + and - ends.

Definitely not the first time it has happened. Leaky batteries destroyed my triple-D Maglite. Had a to use a pipe wrench to open it after batteries corroded it shut.  I no longer keep alkaline batteries inside my devices. You can see the three AAA batteries for my headlamp, which I kept in a separate baggy next to it, and they got really messy.

Not only is buying these crappy batteries like throwing your money in the garbage, but they destroy your expensive devices too. And I can't trust them to take into situations where my safety depends on them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on September 05, 2020, 07:57:22 pm
more photos
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on September 05, 2020, 07:58:34 pm
more photos
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on September 05, 2020, 07:59:27 pm
more photos
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on September 06, 2020, 01:02:39 am

Duracell appears to simply be cheaply made garbage, sold with a 99% profit margin....



Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: coppice on September 06, 2020, 01:05:36 am
Duracell appears to simply be cheaply made garbage, sold with a 99% profit margin....
Name a brand that isn't in 2020. I have yet to see a brand that is still making the trustworthy alkaline cells the better makers produced 30 years ago.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: McBryce on September 06, 2020, 07:58:03 am
I got fed up cleaning Duracell battery crap out of devices and moved to GP Brand batteries years ago. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I haven't had a battery leak on me since then (and they're cheaper).

McBryce.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: coppice on September 06, 2020, 10:54:08 am
I got fed up cleaning Duracell battery crap out of devices and moved to GP Brand batteries years ago. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I haven't had a battery leak on me since then (and they're cheaper).

McBryce.
I've had plenty of leaks from GP batteries. My 25 year old Sanwa multimeter looked like new until recently. A GP battery put an end to that. It was such a mess it had to go in the bin. I'm not criticising GP specifically. They seem no worse than any other option.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SeanB on September 06, 2020, 11:26:40 am
Just took 8 AA Energiser batteries out, expiry in December 2025, and of them 2 were just starting to leak. Other 6 will be going into wall clock use, as there even if they leak they will just drip down out of the mechanism, and will probably not cause damage, and if they do a new clock mech is very cheap to buy.

There are no batteries left that do not leak, only ones I found that were not at all are a literal no name brand one, full white case with nothing printed on it, that came as the OEM batteries in Airmatic air freshener spray cans, which I never had leak. I would buy the full kit, because that came with the dispenser, 2 cans and these 2 batteries, for less than the cost of a single refill, as a promotional item.  Take the 2 cans out, keep the pack of 2 cells and toss the unused dispenser in the box of "stuff to ewaste", which all eventually landed up in that container going to China, except for those I stripped for the motor in them. Ladies at work wanted a "non poop" smell in the toilets, so these went in up high, set to the lowest rate they had, not the default high that you would think by using the power switch as a simple on off, not realising it has 3 time delay positions after off. 15 minutes, 10 minutes and 5 minutes, and of course just turning on all the way got you the 5 minute setting.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on September 06, 2020, 01:31:00 pm
Duracell appears to simply be cheaply made garbage, sold with a 99% profit margin....
Name a brand that isn't in 2020. I have yet to see a brand that is still making the trustworthy alkaline cells the better makers produced 30 years ago.

Agree, it seems to be a dire situation.  I have given up on alkaline batteries altogether and now buy only rechargeable NiMH or Lithium primary batteries, both of which have been stable for me.  I try to avoid buying any batteries at all from Duracell just because I don't want to contribute a penny to a company that scams consumers and preys on their lack of knowledge.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: darik on September 07, 2020, 12:04:58 am
Duracell appears to simply be cheaply made garbage, sold with a 99% profit margin....
Name a brand that isn't in 2020. I have yet to see a brand that is still making the trustworthy alkaline cells the better makers produced 30 years ago.

Agree, it seems to be a dire situation.  I have given up on alkaline batteries altogether and now buy only rechargeable NiMH or Lithium primary batteries, both of which have been stable for me.  I try to avoid buying any batteries at all from Duracell just because I don't want to contribute a penny to a company that scams consumers and preys on their lack of knowledge.

And what makes it worse is a couple of the use cases that alkalines are best for: long term storage in emergency devices like flashlights, and long term use in low power devices, are the exact situations in which they can least be trusted.

You absolutely _have_ to inspect them monthly. You just have to now.

I remember when alkalines literally never leaked. It was just crappy zinc carbons that would leak that brown crap that wasn't nearly as corrosive as what comes out of modern alkalines.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on September 07, 2020, 12:20:52 am
Duracell appears to simply be cheaply made garbage, sold with a 99% profit margin....
Name a brand that isn't in 2020. I have yet to see a brand that is still making the trustworthy alkaline cells the better makers produced 30 years ago.

Agree, it seems to be a dire situation.  I have given up on alkaline batteries altogether and now buy only rechargeable NiMH or Lithium primary batteries, both of which have been stable for me.  I try to avoid buying any batteries at all from Duracell just because I don't want to contribute a penny to a company that scams consumers and preys on their lack of knowledge.

And what makes it worse is a couple of the use cases that alkalines are best for: long term storage in emergency devices like flashlights, and long term use in low power devices, are the exact situations in which they can least be trusted.

You absolutely _have_ to inspect them monthly. You just have to now.

I remember when alkalines literally never leaked. It was just crappy zinc carbons that would leak that brown crap that wasn't nearly as corrosive as what comes out of modern alkalines.

That's where the Lithium batteries come in.  They are very reliable, in my experience.  Unfortunately, you pay through the nose for that...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Bud on September 07, 2020, 12:52:02 am
Duracell appears to simply be cheaply made garbage, sold with a 99% profit margin....
Name a brand that isn't in 2020. I have yet to see a brand that is still making the trustworthy alkaline cells the better makers produced 30 years ago.
I ve been having a good experience with IKEA Alkalisk AA batteries and moved to exclusively use them. Just a few days ago my thermostat stopped working, i opened it to replace the batteries and found a set of Alkalisks inside that i put in maybe 5 or 6 years ago. No sign of leak. They may not be the best capacity performer but are inexpensive for the performance they deliver.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on September 07, 2020, 11:18:45 pm
My Duracell Double-A's did the same thing.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on September 29, 2020, 04:11:48 am
the battery goop isn't exactly benign either. It has stained the lino surface on my bench, and even started eating to it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on September 29, 2020, 03:00:56 pm
the battery goop isn't exactly benign either. It has stained the lino surface on my bench, and even started eating to it.

Yep, and that kind of damage is excluded from the Durahell warranty...   only the device the hapless owner put them in is covered.  So when your $2 flashlight (covered) leaks and ruins your $2,000 mahogany desk (not covered), guess who's Durahell's little b!tch?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2020, 11:15:14 am
And what makes it worse is a couple of the use cases that alkalines are best for: long term storage in emergency devices like flashlights, and long term use in low power devices, are the exact situations in which they can least be trusted.

You absolutely _have_ to inspect them monthly. You just have to now.

Just leave the batteries next the the flashlight, not inside it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 03, 2020, 01:20:45 pm
And what makes it worse is a couple of the use cases that alkalines are best for: long term storage in emergency devices like flashlights, and long term use in low power devices, are the exact situations in which they can least be trusted.

You absolutely _have_ to inspect them monthly. You just have to now.

Just leave the batteries next the the flashlight, not inside it.

Might as well use a candle or an oil lamp if we are going to go in that direction!  In fact, those are my "back-ups for the back-up"...

The best solution, in my view, is to make all the Duracell cheap-ass quality problems go away by using Lithium primary cells in devices that very rarely get used.  They are not cheap, but definitely worth it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 03, 2020, 06:27:09 pm
I'm not going to feed $6 lithium batteries to my $3 wall clock.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 03, 2020, 10:40:06 pm
I'm not going to feed $6 lithium batteries to my $3 wall clock.

They can run for 10 years...   it makes sense to me, at least...   the costs of other batteries add up too. 

Another factor is, why would I climb ladders to reach smoke alarms etc. any more often than I need to?   A battery that lasts 10 years or more is very appealing...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 04, 2020, 02:57:44 am
at the tiny currents a wall clock requires, the lithium battery AA will only last about 15% longer. Not worth the 2,000% higher cost.

I haven't seen a 9V smoke alarm battery leak yet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 04, 2020, 03:26:08 am
at the tiny currents a wall clock requires, the lithium battery AA will only last about 15% longer.   [...]

Would you trust a modern alkaline not to leak over 10 years?  There are examples here on the EEVblog where people are finding them leaking before they've even been installed in any device...

Quote
I haven't seen a 9V smoke alarm battery leak yet.

Me neither, but in fairness, smoke alarms have their ways of making you change their batteries before they expire completely! -  I only get a couple of years or so out of ordinary alkaline.  I installed lithium everywhere around 3 years ago, and so far - knock on wood - they are holding up.  The benefit of lithium in that application is having more energy so they last longer.

9V battery leakage is fairly rare (but not completely unheard of) in my experience too, even when left to go completely flat.  Wonder why that is...

Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 04, 2020, 04:13:09 am
Would you trust a modern alkaline not to leak over 10 years?
Of course not.

Quote
There are examples here on the EEVblog where people are finding them leaking before they've even been installed in any device...
I know. Scroll up and you'll see examples I posted on this page.

I'm still not going to waste money on lithium. It's cheaper to buy a new clock.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 04, 2020, 04:14:38 am
The benefit of lithium in that application is having more energy so they last longer.
marginally in these applications
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 04, 2020, 02:44:09 pm
[...]
I'm still not going to waste money on lithium. It's cheaper to buy a new clock.

But that takes effort to do.

I pay myself $100 an hour for anything I do that I don't enjoy.  So, spending 20 minutes finding, ordering, and hanging a $5 wall clock actually costs me nearly $40 by my calculation!  So, a lithium battery is easily worth its price to me, if it stays in service significantly longer than the alternative.   

Your calculation may be different, if you have a hobby of searching for clocks and hanging them up, then a lithium battery doesn't make sense, you'd probably change the clock before the battery drained anyway! :D



Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 04, 2020, 04:15:42 pm
well if you pay yourself  :-// then you'll get your money back. Also, your rates are a rip off.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: coppice on October 04, 2020, 05:21:37 pm
I pay myself $100 an hour for anything I do that I don't enjoy.
If I have to pay me $100 an hour, I find I'm overpriced, and the work gets outsourced.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 04, 2020, 05:54:50 pm
It's a good way to think about if something is worth doing or outsourcing.

Basically, is it easier to make the $ to pay someone to do it, than it is to do it yourself?

If I like doing it, I charge very little per hour so I am quite competitive.  If I really hate it, the rates are even worse than already quoted, and someone charging hundreds an hour can get my business!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 04, 2020, 06:34:57 pm
It's a good way to think about if something is worth doing

Is it though? How much do you charge to put away the dishes or do the laundry? Your life sounds expensive.

The lithiums will last 15% longer, saving me a grand total of 2 seconds per year for swapping batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 04, 2020, 10:37:05 pm
It's a good way to think about if something is worth doing

Is it though? How much do you charge to put away the dishes or do the laundry? Your life sounds expensive.

The lithiums will last 15% longer, saving me a grand total of 2 seconds per year for swapping batteries.

They will last 15% longer in your application.   In my ultra low current drain application, I expect them to last 2x, maybe 3x longer - essentially, I expect them to last the full 10 year shelf life.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 04, 2020, 10:57:38 pm
Well according to Energizer datasheets, the lower the power requirement, the smaller the capacity advantage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 04, 2020, 11:08:42 pm

I'm just looking at the same datasheets...    Shelf life: 10 years.   That's at least 2x longer than alkaline, perhaps 3x in some cases.

So, if you only draw e.g. 50mAh per year...  the lithium battery should last the full 10 years, whereas an alkaline will self destruct in 3 - 5 years.





Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: timelessbeing on October 04, 2020, 11:29:32 pm
"should"
we already know what their promises are worth.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
Post by: SilverSolder on October 04, 2020, 11:48:24 pm

Let's resume this thread in 2027, that's when mine will all be 10 years old!  :D