Author Topic: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing  (Read 9772 times)

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Offline tkamiya

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2019, 07:17:43 pm »
Dave,

I just realized I do have a CONTROLLED TEST.  All of my wall clocks are the same.  Same brand, same make, and same type.  Batteries are one AA each.  I have been using Energizer and Duracell for most times.  Occasionally Amazon Basics and only once, Chinese branded and named (that I can read) type that came with the clock. 

I found those that came with the clock always runs out in 6 months or less and they always leak.  Brand name ones are like 50/50.  They have been kept inside of my house so temperature and humidity is pretty constant. 

I never had leaking brand-new batteries....
I was actually noticing batteries leak a lot more often in last 5 to 10 years than before.  I wonder if something drastic changed in the industry as a whole?  Like different chemistry because something got banned, thinner metal containment, etc, etc, etc? 
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2019, 07:18:42 pm »
I have sent things containing alkaline batteries by sea a few times, mostly by accident (i.e. forgetting to remove the batteries before shipment). I find that regardless of the age of the batteries, a lot of them have leaked by the time they are delivered. I suspect something about sea travel might be provoking leakage, although it might well just be bad luck. Has anyone else noticed this?
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2019, 07:30:52 pm »

(cliff img)


Thanks! WOW, looks like Dover!

Quote
It will, at least, keep charge for months.

And therein lies the problem... that's the reason why I don't like rechargeables: can't keep them charged in the drawer, because when you want to use them... you find they're discharged!
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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2019, 07:36:33 pm »
And therein lies the problem... that's the reason why I don't like rechargeables: can't keep them charged in the drawer, because when you want to use them... you find they're discharged!
Eneloops can hold charge for years.
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Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2019, 09:02:16 pm »
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
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Offline Dick123

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2019, 09:12:08 pm »
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
I once was told by a Norwegian friend that those IKEA LADDA AA and AAA rechargeable batteries are coming from the same Japanese factory as the current Panasonic Eneloop Pro.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2019, 09:17:16 pm »
Eneloops can hold charge for years.

Quote
Low self-discharge
The low self-discharge nickel metal hydride battery (LSD NiMH) has a significantly lower rate of self-discharge. The innovation was introduced in 2005 by Sanyo, under their Eneloop brand.[31] By using an improved electrode separator and improved positive electrode, manufacturers claim the cells retain 70–85% of their capacity when stored one year at 20 °C (68 °F), compared to about half for normal NiMH batteries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93metal_hydride_battery#Self-discharge

What do you think is closer to the real thing, 70 or 85%? Also, where I live it's ~ always hotter than 20ºC.

I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking.

Neither do I.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 09:19:18 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2019, 09:30:03 pm »
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
I once was told by a Norwegian friend that those IKEA LADDA AA and AAA rechargeable batteries are coming from the same Japanese factory as the current Panasonic Eneloop Pro.
I am using just regular ,not rechargeable ones.
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Offline HKJ

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2019, 09:50:07 pm »
What do you think is closer to the real thing, 70 or 85%? Also, where I live it's ~ always hotter than 20ºC.

Eneloop claims 70% charge left after 10 years for their 1900mAh cells.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2019, 09:51:04 pm »
"...  In the past mercury was often used in these cells to minimize the generation of hydrogen gas due to undesired electrochemical reactions within the cells. Due to environmental concerns, efforts have been under way to reduce or eliminate the addition of mercury to alkaline cells. As a result of other changes in materials and cell designs, most large consumer alkaline batteries currently on the market contain no added mercury. However, the elimination of mercury has been more of a challenge in some types of aqueous alkaline cells, particularly button cells and metal-air cells of all sizes.

Causes of leakage in aqueous alkaline cells include hydrogen gas evolution, wicking of electrolyte through seal members and sealing interfaces and electrochemically driven creepage of electrolyte through sealing interfaces. Hydrogen gas, which can be generated by the corrosion of the negative electrode active material and other metals (including current collectors and contaminants) in contact with alkaline electrolyte, can result in increased internal cell pressure, which can drive electrolyte through weak areas in the cell housing. Electrolyte can wick by capillary action through pores and other openings in seal members and between seal members and other components that seal electrolyte within the cell housing.

Capillary wicking can be accelerated by electrocapillary drive when a metal at a sealing interface is at a electrical potential (e.g., a metal component of the cell container in electrical contact with one of the electrodes), since a charged surface is more easily wetted by electrolyte. Electrochemically driven creepage can occur between a seal member and a metal housing component at a negative potential (e.g., a negative electrode casing, cover or current collector). This creepage is the result of hydroxyl ion production from the reduction of oxygen and/or the reduction of water on the negatively charged metal substrate at the leading edge of the electrolyte. The negative potential of the metal substrate, in combination with the localized high concentration of hydroxyl ions can draw water and/or electrolyte into this reaction zone, increasing the volume of liquid and forcing the liquid layer farther from the bulk electrolyte in the cell. This phenomenon is described in detail by Hull et al., in “Why Alkaline Cells Leak”, J. Electrochem. Soc.: Electrochemical Science and Technology, vol. 124, no. 3 (March 1977), p. 332-339; by Davis et al. in “Aspects of Alkaline Cell Leakage”, J. Electrochem. Soc.: Electrochemical Science and Technology, vol. 125, no. 12 (December 1978), p. 1919-1923; and by Baugh et al. in “A Mechanism for Alkaline Cell Leakage”, Journal of Applied Electrochemistry, 8 (1978), p. 253-263."

source: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7632605B2/en?
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2019, 10:14:25 pm »
If you are going to pay a premium price, why not just buy Lithium batteries?  They are the best overall (temperature range, no leaks) but do come at a cost.
Here, I have resigned myself to always buying Lithium if I can't make do with rechargeable Eneloops.
...
Premium price? Here in the Netherlands and in Germany you pay less than 23 Euro (incl. tax) for 100 (one hundred!) Vartra Industrial Pro AAA cells. For the very same price you only get 20 Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells. So it depends on the circumstances and/or the devices which one would be the better choice. Like you I always use the (white) rechargeable Eneloops whenever possible but sometimes devices denies to work properly with these. And even Lithium batteries can't replace regular Alkalines all the time. Or haven't you wondered why manufacturers of electronic devices did not mention them in their instruction manuals?

I only use Lithium cells in low current / long service time applications, especially stuff used outdoors (to cope with hot/cold temperatures).   I doubt that I would be able to use a pack of 20 in less than several years - the price just isn't an issue, compared with the risk of damage from leaking garbage alkalines.

I have never seen, and can't think of a device that wouldn't work with a Lithium battery?   -  nor have I ever come across a device that won't work with an Eneloop (or the Eneloop rebadged products, e.g. Ikea Ladda, Duracell Rechargeable, etc.) -  in fact, many devices work better with a rechargeable than a regular alkaline AA.  E.g. camera equipment loves rechargeables (probably due to relatively high peak current draws).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 10:16:18 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2019, 04:24:48 am »
Energizer lithium has high terminal voltage up to 1.83V which can affect some devices. L91 AA 3,000mAh, about twice the capacity of alkaline cells and triple the price. I use them because they work in Canadian winters down to -40°C.

I have used 9V Ultralife lithium batteries for Fluke multimeters, because it's a $500 meter and my employer is paying for the batteries so why cheap out. I saw an old one balloon out and go prego after their rated 10 years but no leaks.
 
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Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2019, 05:01:21 am »
I have never seen, and can't think of a device that wouldn't work with a Lithium battery? ......(snip)

I know of only one device that was affected by the higher battery voltage.   :-DMM

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-bm235-does-not-accept-lithium-batteries/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bm235-lithium-battery-mod/
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2019, 09:44:55 am »

The pocket stuffing battery manufacturers should be doing some real R+D on battery leakage instead of package Disclaimers and circus styled advertising,

and not let it get dumped on Youtube battlers with limited time and resources to do THEIR WORK.  ???

Has anyone considered the metal to metal reactions of the battery terminals, powered device terminals
and PCB tracks etc ? I've seen all three go bad news  :o

I'm currently rolling with Coles and Woolies batteries, and Bunnings flogging the Narva brand.
so far so good  :phew: and CHEAP

The ALDI and Enerjizzzer batteries are to be avoided like the plague  :scared: :scared: 
once ok Duracells have now become a coin toss,
Lithiums in sealed packets have leaked on me at room temperature,

and well, it seems we'll all have to put a reminder in phone calenders to check and toss batteries every 6 months,
and be criminally out of pocket,
or be mega out of pocket if any battery driven test gear gets trashed by leakage

Shame on these manufacturers that don't gas (The Finger x2 Smilie)   >:(


Thanks to DJ for having an unpaid lengthy go at it  :-+

 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2019, 10:21:50 am »
DJ!?!? Hahaha  :-+
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Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2019, 02:29:38 pm »
I was thinking the leak issue might be caused by a different phenomena - Energy (electron) hammering?

Take a look at the water hammering effect, a phenomenon explained in this YouTube video:
- What is Water Hammer?

Yes, obviously water is heavy and it is easy to measure flow - the electron also should weigh something and does not like compressing, so in my mind it can (quite possibly) do the same. Pipe or wire as the conductor from storage container, and when switched on/off the negative effect breaks seals 'everywhere', be it in walls, floors or in electronic devices.

I haven't looked at the differential probe schematics, but my guess is that it uses an internal switching power supply. Might be why a relatively new battery failed.
Long wires, with a bit of inductance - and impressive pressure spikes can be measured in form of voltage noise. (And who puts a cap over the battery compartment  :wtf:)

Loading the batteries with a constant load, brand new from the package - and then with a resistor, do not stress the system much.
Loading the batteries with a pulsing load, brand new from the package - and then keeping pulsing it, surely stresses the seals much more.

Loading/pulsing batteries in the original plastic wrapping might also occour, especially if there is salt and moisture present. Plastic is made up of carbon, which is conductive under the 'right' circumstances. Plastics differ, which might be why some leak in package and others don't.

Happy New Year, and please do the test again with some switching supplies  :popcorn:
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2019, 03:40:02 pm »
Electrons don't "water hammer", at least not in the nonlinear way that fluids can.  Aside from contrived systems, current flow is entirely described by linear wave equations (and electron flow, by thermal drift; but actual electron flow in conductors is highly irrelevant for the most part).

Water hammer is most directly analogous to flyback from switching a coil.  There is some current flow, then it stops abruptly; the pressure shoots up in response.  The peak depends on a number of factors (rate of change, capacitance and resistance), and the flux (pressure * time) depends on the length of the pipe (effectively, the inductance, as a pipe is more of a lossy transmission line than a general wire).

Which no one's accused of damaging a battery.


The idea about mechanical stress... is right, to a certain degree, but so far off as to be considered fringe.

In short, I think you will find the coupling factors are around, I don't know, something like 10^8 too small.

When we reason about multiple effects, we must consider the significance of each, rank them, and progressively sum up the result.  When we reach an adequate explanation, we have no need to consider further effects.  Especially when the magnitude of those effects is expected to be far smaller than our remaining error so could never possibly account for the difference.  We can still find it useful to contemplate those low-order effects, in order to bring attention to them in the rare cases where they are significant, but they can otherwise be ignored, and should be.

Say we're thinking about the impedance of the battery.  What contributes?  Well, we might have wires, contacts, their resistance and inductance, capacitance of the battery plates over the electrolyte, conductivity of the electrolyte, ionic diffusion in the electrolyte and electrodes, etc.  We can come up with a magnitude estimate for each, sum them up, compare to our measurement, and figure whether we've got a good match or not.

It might plausibly be a part of this same figure, to consider the electrostriction, magnetostriction, piezoelectricity or other electromechanical effects.  (We might measure in terms of the electrical --> mechanical effect, but there will necessarily be a reciprocal effect, so this isn't a poorly motivated example.)  In general, a substance will expand, contract or shear in some way when exposed to fields.

Most substances, the magnitude is so close to zero as to be ignored.

I think you will find this is the case with batteries.

Further couplings are the mechanical nature of the battery itself (if some part of the construction expands or contracts, what effect does that have on the seal?), and external influences (the cover?).

Or put another way: take a wire and a fully charged cell.  Briefly short the cell.  How much sound does the cell make?

Can you even tell it's making any sound at all, besides the wire sparking?  (Slightly more subtle experiment, use a MOSFET and resistor so the current is more repeatable and the switch is silent without sparking.)  Can you measure (say with a microphone, micrometer, interferometer, etc.) if it's moving at any magnitude or rate, that isn't consistent with, say, thermal expansion?


So, you're not wrong, but I think it's more interesting to discuss how you're not wrong, than to just dismiss your points outright.

I will however note this,

Plastic is made up of carbon, which is conductive under the 'right' circumstances.

is just out and out wrong.

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2019, 03:48:05 pm »
Now I'm thinking that perhaps, rather than run different brands, take the most notorious brand (Duracell) and just test those to discover the best mechanism for leakage FIRST, before testing all the brands?

And maybe get a bunch of small $2 farting novelty gadgets that takes two AA's that has a small standby current. I could get dozens of these on AliExpress and run various combinations.
Product recommendations?

If you believe Duracell is indeed the most notorious brand for leaking, why do you supply them with your high end 121GW?
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2019, 04:40:02 pm »
^   :popcorn:
 

Offline calzap

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2019, 05:41:05 pm »
Yeah, elemental carbon can conduct electricity.  But plastics don't conduct unless they are specifically made to conduct by addition of metal or elemental carbon.  There's a reason chips,  relay bases, switches, etc. are imbedded in plastic. For plastics that don't conduct (the vast majority), the only "circumstance" that might make them conductive is partial incineration.

Mike in California

 
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Offline Dick123

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2019, 06:59:54 pm »
...I have never seen, and can't think of a device that wouldn't work with a Lithium battery? ....
Well, Hioki recently  kindly wrote me this interesting email:

Quote
...
Thank you for contacting us with regards to the battery of DT422x.

It can be used as the power supply for DT422x series, however,
we don't recommend using the Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries.

We've tested DT422x series's performance with voltage supply up to 1.725 V.
More than this voltage, we can't guarantee the accuracy.
Initially, we recommend checking the voltage whether the voltage doesn't excess 1.725V.

The remained battery indicator would behave differently against
when an alkaline battery is used because of the different discharge profile.
The battery indicator will quickly drop after the second (the remained battery is two) lights up.

Kindly please note these 2 points when you use the Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries.
...

But of course you're right that the Hioki DT422x runs fine with an Eneloop, although the  battery indicator don't work properly (that's mentioned in the manual). BTW I will gonna write a review in the equipment section about the Hioki DR4224 later next February since there is very little user feedback about this series on the Internet.

 
 
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Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2019, 07:18:28 pm »
Full water bottle bounces as bad as a full battery
Empty water bottle bounces all over, just as empty battery
 

Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2019, 07:38:11 pm »
Yeah, elemental carbon can conduct electricity.  But plastics don't conduct unless they are specifically made to conduct by addition of metal or elemental carbon.  There's a reason chips,  relay bases, switches, etc. are imbedded in plastic. For plastics that don't conduct (the vast majority), the only "circumstance" that might make them conductive is partial incineration.

Mike in California

Pyrolytic arcing occurs when the outlets, which are plastic, become conductive. This plastic plate opens an electrical path, causing sporadic arcing to occur ...
Electrical facts, 3
https://books.google.dk/books?id=kLEGn4nBXnUC&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=plastic+sporadic+conductive&source=bl&ots=t6b81lVy7l&sig=ACfU3U3FCBUz6Zga_eU8mVuipjtwfEMv1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR5bO9jt7mAhVBL1AKHVD0Cp8Q6AEwAHoECAgQAQ


You can make plastic conductive by punching and bending a complex metal sheet into the plastic itself, but the process is cumbersome and makes the plastic heavier and inflexible.
(Battery terminals moving and grinding up against and around in plastic wrapping during shipment and storage due to temperature variations)
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/electricity-conducting-plastics
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2019, 09:16:30 pm »
Now I'm thinking that perhaps, rather than run different brands, take the most notorious brand (Duracell) and just test those to discover the best mechanism for leakage FIRST, before testing all the brands?

And maybe get a bunch of small $2 farting novelty gadgets that takes two AA's that has a small standby current. I could get dozens of these on AliExpress and run various combinations.
Product recommendations?

If you believe Duracell is indeed the most notorious brand for leaking, why do you supply them with your high end 121GW?


This is NEWS to me  ???  I don't know when Duracell scored this 'notorious brand for leaking' bum rap,
when Enerjizzzer has ruled for years as undisputed King and Queen Of Spewage Land since the 1990s, perhaps the '80s too, for expensive batteries  :clap:
 
Duracell, Panasonic, Toshiba and Tandy/Radio Shack brands were a better bet to not leak in most scenarios.

'Genuine' Duracell 9 volt batteries 'may' still be the best 'off the shelf' bet for smoke detectors afaik + afaict,
and as a side bonus, once swapped out of smoke detectors, still work fine at 8.xx volts in multimeters and other low current draw equipments that can tolerate and work from 7 to 9.6 volts.

It's also poor economics to think DJ somehow went cheap on meter accessories.. perhaps chasing some Yo-Yo rapper 'notoriety' ? lol   by putting in top dollar Duracells
instead of  -GOLDEN POWER-  or decent Coles alkalines at a third? of the price  (oh, duh..)   :palm:

And besides, once any meter is in new owners hands, it's their baby to manage the battery dept. not the sellers.

fwiw most times I'll toss supplied batteries into a spares tray, and fit and use what I know,
after marking a four digit month/year date on them.

EDIT: where is proven independent statistical data that puts Duracell at the top of the 'notorious' list ?  :popcorn:

« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 09:43:00 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Online JustMeHere

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2019, 04:30:12 am »
I found a pair of batteries that had leaked in the bottom of a change jar.  One was at .2 v and the other was at 1.2v.  I believe discharge has nothing to do with this.  Both batteries could have been subjected to 100+ F heat at some point in their life.  (Very likely.)
 


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