Author Topic: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing  (Read 9812 times)

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Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2019, 05:28:44 am »
I switched 100% to IKEA LADDA batteries (AA and AAA) few years ago and i must say i have not seen them leaking. I use them in meters, wall clocks, handheld radios, and just laying in the drawer, so they have been subject to a variety of discharge current conditions.
I once was told by a Norwegian friend that those IKEA LADDA AA and AAA rechargeable batteries are coming from the same Japanese factory as the current Panasonic Eneloop Pro.
I am using just regular ,not rechargeable ones.

Correction: the non-rechargeable IKEA batteries are branded "Alkalisk", someone tested them here:

https://rightbattery.com/859-1-5v-aa-ikea-alkalisk-alkaline-battery-tests/
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Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2019, 07:51:36 am »
Common to all alkaline batteries are the negative cap,
Circumcise the bottom cⓇap,
See if the batt still does its attack, on itttz-
Surroundings and other batt.

Infected by the SoC - Beat it to


Btw, please fix the forum so when linking to an YouTube video, the time stamp also works.
(Would have linked to the leakage testing video on the bottom half, but it don't work)
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2019, 06:23:07 pm »
Now I'm thinking that perhaps, rather than run different brands, take the most notorious brand (Duracell) and just test those to discover the best mechanism for leakage FIRST, before testing all the brands?

And maybe get a bunch of small $2 farting novelty gadgets that takes two AA's that has a small standby current. I could get dozens of these on AliExpress and run various combinations.
Product recommendations?

If you believe Duracell is indeed the most notorious brand for leaking, why do you supply them with your high end 121GW?


This is NEWS to me  ???  I don't know when Duracell scored this 'notorious brand for leaking' bum rap,
when Enerjizzzer has ruled for years as undisputed King and Queen Of Spewage Land since the 1990s, perhaps the '80s too, for expensive batteries  :clap:
 
Duracell, Panasonic, Toshiba and Tandy/Radio Shack brands were a better bet to not leak in most scenarios.

'Genuine' Duracell 9 volt batteries 'may' still be the best 'off the shelf' bet for smoke detectors afaik + afaict,
and as a side bonus, once swapped out of smoke detectors, still work fine at 8.xx volts in multimeters and other low current draw equipments that can tolerate and work from 7 to 9.6 volts.

It's also poor economics to think DJ somehow went cheap on meter accessories.. perhaps chasing some Yo-Yo rapper 'notoriety' ? lol   by putting in top dollar Duracells
instead of  -GOLDEN POWER-  or decent Coles alkalines at a third? of the price  (oh, duh..)   :palm:


And besides, once any meter is in new owners hands, it's their baby to manage the battery dept. not the sellers.

fwiw most times I'll toss supplied batteries into a spares tray, and fit and use what I know,
after marking a four digit month/year date on them.

EDIT: where is proven independent statistical data that puts Duracell at the top of the 'notorious' list ?  :popcorn:

If it's really this brand in particular and they were expected to leak in a fairly short time, based on Dave still selling the old revision of meters from the kickstart, that's a long time for the batteries to sit.  Why risk it?  Save on shipping and cost of the batteries and just don't include them.    Still, obviously they are shipping them with the Duracell and I am curious why they would use the most notorious brand known to leak? 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2019, 06:33:03 pm »
Common to all alkaline batteries are the negative cap,
Circumcise the bottom cⓇap,
See if the batt still does its attack, on itttz-
Surroundings and other batt.

Is this a rap song of a haiku ?  :o
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Online McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2019, 06:38:52 pm »
You're doing it wrong Dave. Put them in something expensive with hard to reach contacts and they'll leak within days. :)

McBryce.
 
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Offline darik

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2020, 12:43:03 am »
You're doing it wrong Dave. Put them in something expensive with hard to reach contacts and they'll leak within days. :)

McBryce.

If you really want them to leak put them in something that holds them in a snug fitting tube that only opens at one end. That they will permanently glue themselves into when they leak so you can't extricate them without destroying the device.

I've lost 3 really nice flashlights and an apple wireless keyboard that way.
 
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Offline amyk

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2020, 10:06:56 pm »
If you really want them to leak put them in something that holds them in a snug fitting tube that only opens at one end. That they will permanently glue themselves into when they leak so you can't extricate them without destroying the device.

I've lost 3 really nice flashlights and an apple wireless keyboard that way.
When that happens, you can drill them out with a big enough drill bit. It's messy but works.
 

Online McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2020, 10:12:24 am »
I had a Maglite that had leaked so much that it fused both endcaps to the body and I couldn't even open it to drill the batteries out. :(


McBryce.
 

Offline alegend

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2020, 02:03:56 pm »
Hi Dave,

My two cents: I have found alkalines leaked more not when completely discharged, but rather when left on a trickle discharge, say 2uA to 5uA. It could be just a coincidence but that is what I have experienced....

-Al.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2020, 03:09:35 pm »
Perhaps there is one factor not being considered here. Hydrogen embrittlement of the stainless steel shel of the battery which can lead to micro cracks forming. I have never looked at a leaking battery with a microscope,the idea has only just occurred to me. although Hydrogen embrittlement in metal  is something was already aware of it has just never crossed my mind before that the reason batteries leak could be this.
 

Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2020, 04:26:16 pm »
Perhaps there is one factor not being considered here. Hydrogen embrittlement of the stainless steel shel of the battery which can lead to micro cracks forming. I have never looked at a leaking battery with a microscope,the idea has only just occurred to me. although Hydrogen embrittlement in metal  is something was already aware of it has just never crossed my mind before that the reason batteries leak could be this.

Batteries always seem to leak from the bottom, in my experience.
Top nipple is often extruded, so imho it should be more prone to leaks - if the metal case does crack from hydrogen embrittlement :-//
 
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Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2020, 05:37:05 am »
Found in the drawer a 10 years old garden light rechargeable battery leaked from the positive terminal.
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Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2020, 08:16:45 am »
Found in the drawer a 10 years old garden light rechargeable battery leaked from the positive terminal.

Ni-Cd is a different type of battery than alkaline (Secondary cell).
It seems the seal is (always?) in the top/positive end as shown in the video below. Ni-Mh batteries too.

Electro-chemistry / Secondary Cells /Nickel Cadmium battery/Lead–acid storage battery
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2020, 08:50:26 am »
Electrons don't "water hammer", at least not in the nonlinear way that fluids can.  Aside from contrived systems, current flow is entirely described by linear wave equations (and electron flow, by thermal drift; but actual electron flow in conductors is highly irrelevant for the most part).

Water hammer is most directly analogous to flyback from switching a coil.  There is some current flow, then it stops abruptly; the pressure shoots up in response.  The peak depends on a number of factors (rate of change, capacitance and resistance), and the flux (pressure * time) depends on the length of the pipe (effectively, the inductance, as a pipe is more of a lossy transmission line than a general wire).

Which no one's accused of damaging a battery.


The idea about mechanical stress... is right, to a certain degree, but so far off as to be considered fringe.

In short, I think you will find the coupling factors are around, I don't know, something like 10^8 too small.

Both you and 'TheDane' with his previous post 'water hammer video' are looking at this the wrong way, but the 'water hammer' effect idea looked at from another angle may still hold a bit of merit.  With a new batter, switching on a toy DC motor train, or, a flashlight does have a small short current surge as the motor spins up, or the filament begins cool, or at your devices potential DC filter cap begins from 0v.  Though quick and within tolerances of batteries, this pulse of current may have a super thin layer effect between the battery's electrolyte and zinc & manganese dioxide electrodes generating a slow progressive reaction over time, even if this current pulse only happened once to the battery, which may cause the battery's electrolyte to expand out and leak through a process similar to crystal growth.  During the manufacturing process, the single test load may already be just large enough to begin this process for some batteries.

On the other hand, it could just be a bad batch of batteries.
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline TheDane

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2020, 09:19:21 am »
My two cents: I have found alkalines leaked more not when completely discharged, but rather when left on a trickle discharge, say 2uA to 5uA. It could be just a coincidence but that is what I have experienced....

You're not the only one - which is why I suggested (on page 3) to add switchmode loads to the leakage test, if performed again.

Batteries that leak while inside tight flash light tubes could be explained by the plastic cover becomming conductive (from grinding against the case, crushing the plastics into the metal) - sporatically, which acts as a lightning surge before the pathway evaporates away. This would 'hammer' the battery, causing it to stress.

Batteries located at the bottom of a cup or in an angled container, especially with excessive temperature variations, move ever so slightly - zap  and d®ead :horse: leaks
Lots of examples - I'm not saying I have seen the lights (or heard the fizzzingly sounds) - but there's a logical explanation.

Anybody who explained why an empty battery jumps all over (just like an empty water bottle) - and the full ones also behave similarly?
- I haven't found an answer to that one, and I know it has been discussed on the forum
 

Offline geogeo

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2020, 08:16:35 pm »
Quite a few people are saying aluminimum torches, so maybe I'll get a bunch of these:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?trafficChannel=main&d=y&CatId=0&SearchText=aa+aluminium+flashlight&ltype=wholesale&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1&page=1
But they are only single AA


Single cells leak too. My favorite flashlights have been single AA types and I've lost a few of them to leaking Alkalines. Couldn't get the batteries out to tell what brand they were. Lost a few larger maglights to bad batteries as well.

I don't know that being in a sealed tube causes any more or faster leaking, but it could be more memorable because it isn't recoverable. Usually when I find leakers in other things, I can clean the terminals and carry on using the thing.

Hopefully those days are behind me, no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2020, 10:06:20 pm »
[...] no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.

I'm with you on that.  I've simply stopped using alkaline batteries altogether and don't miss them at all.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2020, 09:59:11 pm »
[...] no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.

I'm with you on that.  I've simply stopped using alkaline batteries altogether and don't miss them at all.

I sincerely hope you both have a long run with that  :-+  but I've been there already and lost/still losing  :horse:

They all leak eventually and at random, be they top dollar brand name, cheapies, dodgy knockoffs, high tech, latest tech, 'advanced tech' oooh... ::) Star Fleet endorsed,  blah..
it's still the same old game of battery leak russian roulette  :scared: 
with our pockets the loser on trashed gear, unpaid/wasted time repairs, inconvenience due to device failure, especially under emergency conditions,
and if the gear somehow miraculously survives with nothing major eaten, vaporized, or corroded beyond recognition,
there's yet another battery purchase on top to get the ball rolling again..and repeat the pita vicious circle  |O

The deal is batteries are encased in devices packed with other electronic components that emanate their own chemical odors
and under pressure, temperature variations, little to no air flow, 
as well as whatever is going on inside the battery itself,
and the metal battery terminals are rubbing up on the device terminals which who knows what sort of cheap/cheapest plating it may be etc etc
That said, it may not be just the batteries to fully blame for all the disasters.

Whatever the reasons, it's the battery manufacturers PAID JOB to R+D and sort this out ASAP, and so less of their sub par product goes into the landfills before their time,
which is another byproduct of leaking batteries they are responsible for,
not the urban battler who forgets to check their torch and multimeter, loaded up with bunny endorsed  :palm:  big dollar batteries 

Sooner or later, hopefully MUCH LATER..any battery will pop and leak somehow  :-BROKE  >:(  :(   

The manufacturers today are too busy bean counting, back patting, perving at profit pie charts, partying hard and doing that thing with the Xerox photocopier  :D
or flogging the business to the next lot of cashed up clueless corporat raidertards,

so in the meantime they advertise hard with circus styled ads,
hoping connedsumers buy and use them up asap, toss, and buy new ones = no problems for them  :phew:

i.e. if you've got gear you can't afford to replace or have it fail at the wrong time/danger etc DO NOT TRUST ANY BATTERIES for unattended long term, period.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 01:11:40 am by Electro Detective »
 
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Online schmitt trigger

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2020, 10:28:44 pm »
" if you've got gear you can't afford to replace or have it fail at the wrong time/danger etc DO NOT TRUST ANY BATTERIES for unattended long term, period."

Sage words.

I had a *priceless* Zenith Transoceanic 1000 multi-band receiver that was given to me by my late grandfather, that became a casualty of such a dumb mistake.
The unit employed nine D batteries, and those belched industrial quantities of corrosive goo.

If you aren't familiar with this beautiful radio, here is a link:

http://elmphotography.com/radios/radio23.htm
 

Online McBryce

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2020, 07:46:03 am »
" if you've got gear you can't afford to replace or have it fail at the wrong time/danger etc DO NOT TRUST ANY BATTERIES for unattended long term, period."

Sage words.

I had a *priceless* Zenith Transoceanic 1000 multi-band receiver that was given to me by my late grandfather, that became a casualty of such a dumb mistake.
The unit employed nine D batteries, and those belched industrial quantities of corrosive goo.

If you aren't familiar with this beautiful radio, here is a link:

http://elmphotography.com/radios/radio23.htm

Very nice radio... which reminds me. I have one of these at home full of D Cells. I should probably check them.

McBryce.

 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2020, 01:33:27 pm »
A few years ago, I was given an old meter that was found in a house that was being torn down.  I decided to restore it.  It's over 40 years old and I strongly suspect it had the original batteries in it.  These batteries were advertised not to leak.   These are a little shorter than what we have today so I decided to save them as part of the restore process and ended up pulling them apart.   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/history-of-tachikawa-(tmk)/msg1318350/#msg1318350

The video link showing the batteries.   The thick plastic and seal did it's job.
https://youtu.be/2H6YKvnOQyw?t=529
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2020, 10:30:20 pm »
The battery manufacturers could lift their game and PAY+Royalty percentage, someone clued (DJ with select EEVblog members?) to play around with the current designs, look at past products,   
armed with some chemically resistant plastics, seals, relief chambers and absorbant materials etc etc etc to improve on the leakage aspects,
without having to drastically change the cheapskate investard driven current manufacturing and assembly processes. 

It's more than likely been done already last century, when people gas, were genuinely 'reputation driven' and didn't want comebacks and lost sales. 
Now that 'old' documented paperwork has likely been binned and landfillized after the usual corporat takeover
and 'old tech/what is this stuff?/get rid of it' purge by the new staff, to impress someone with their clueless dumbass paper shred efficiency come OCD affliction 
and to annoy any remaining previous staff about to get the ass soon anyway. A childish playground power thang..   ::)

The Worm Kingdom had the last access to documented knowledge on how to construct a decent leak free battery,
so now the humans above either have to start over to 'reinvent the battery'
or keep dealing with collateral damage from leaking batteries  :horse:

 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2020, 01:12:50 am »
[...] no more alkies, lithium primaries for flashlights in the car and nimh for everything inside.

I'm with you on that.  I've simply stopped using alkaline batteries altogether and don't miss them at all.

I sincerely hope you both have a long run with that  :-+  but I've been there already and lost/still losing  :horse:
[...]

I have never seen an Eneloop leak, nor have I seen a lithium battery leak.  Are you saying I've just been lucky?
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2020, 01:49:05 am »
I have never seen an Eneloop leak, nor have I seen a lithium battery leak.  Are you saying I've just been lucky?
Primary lithium batteries can leak. Not as quickly as alkaline cells, but they can leak. Many primary lithium cells are specified in detail so you can predict their leakage over 10 years and use them for low consumption things like RTCs. However, some designs will leak before they get to that 10 year point. On the plus side, their leakage specs are usually realistic, so they will still be supplying the RTC OK. :)
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: EEVblog #1274 - Long Term Alkaline Battery Leakage Testing
« Reply #99 on: January 11, 2020, 09:52:58 am »
I've seen primary lithium/SOCl2 (toxic) spew electrolyte all over the pcb at the 5-7 year point.
Tadiran now making "40-year Lifetime" claims in many publications  ::)
Bel Wafer style like TL-2186, TL-4986, TL-5186 - obsolete 2105 but replaced by TL-2450.
It's a laser-welded metal can and that seam corrodes and then the battery leaks HCL and kills the pcb.
 


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